Spock the liar! Spock the misanthrope!

[Too Much Fun]

So what's the deal with Spock and lying? In "Star Trek IV", there's that memorable scene of his verbal joust with Kirk and the marine biologist where a lot of attention is drawn to the fact that he can't lie. However, in "This Side of Paradise", he lies to the woman on the planet about everything being fine on the ship (after Kirk has provoked him into fighting, losing the influence of the spores in the process, and betraying her), and in "The City on the Edge of Forever", he seems perfectly comfortable (in very similar scenes to the "Star Trek IV" scene) supporting Kirk in lying to the locals and Edith Keeler about his appearance/background/actions to cover up the fact that he's an alien/working with futuristic technology.

So was this just a one-time adjustment of the character in "Star Trek IV", or were those other instances continuity errors for a character that is supposed to be incapable of lying? I wonder if anyone has ever seen it definitively established anywhere that part of Vulcan nature is that they cannot lie, or if Spock's compulsive truth-telling in the truck was just the writer taking liberties with the character for the sake of effective humour. And I hope any TNG fans that may be reading this got the little reference in my thread title.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I watched This Side yesterday. He IS a liar! We should waterboard this s.o.g.

 

[The Badger]

Well, in Trek IV he's still not fully recovered from his recent death, if you see what I mean, and is behaving somewhat more rigidly than usual.

I believe that it has never been definitively established that Vulcans are incapable of lying, and the evidence (many episodes of ENT, Trek VI etc.) strongly suggests that they can. I always had the impression that they prefer not to, but will if there is sufficient need.

 

[Anticitizen]

I believe he told the Romulan commander in 'The Enterprise Incident' that he was incapable of lying... Which was in itself a lie, as he continued to deceive her throughout the episode.

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah, exactly. I mean, I saw The Enterprise Incident first when I was, like, 10, and even then I said to myself, "He's lying right now." Don't get me wrong, I don't think less of Spock for lying for a good cause, but that's what he did, no question about it.

I think Vulcans have found over the centuries that having a carefully cultivated reputation for veracity is a good thing, so I expect they don't lie often. But they clearly do sometimes.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Even if Vulcans are incapable of lying, Spock is not a Vulcan. He is a half-Vulcan. He is also half-Human. Humans are most definitely capable of lying.

 

[JustKate]

OK, how about T'Pring in Amok Time?

Vulcans can lie if they think it's important enough - if it's the logical thing to do.

 

[kythe]

I don't think T'Pring lied at all. She was pretty upfront about Stonn. She and Spock hadn't communicated since they were children though, which doesn't create a good foundation for a relationship.

I agree that they will lie if it is logical, basically if there is sufficient reason. They just don't live their lives telling "little white lies" like we do. Spock even says in Journey to Babel that his father would be capable of killing if there was reason. Even though this sounds quite extreme, it makes sense in the context and I'm sure could be applied to other areas of life.

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, come now - she acted a lie from the moment her face appeared on the viewscreen, right up until Spock flat-out asked her for an explanation.

I'm not criticizing her - you wouldn't catch me marrying man A when I really wanted man B, even if it was what my parents wanted - but it was an act, and that's just another word for lying. Or dissimulating, if you prefer that word.

 

[kythe]

Yes. I actually think one reason Spock likes to tell people he doesn't lie is because it gives him an advantage. People do see Vulcans as trustworthy, and this reputation makes it much easier for them to gain accurate information quickly from others. I do think overall that Vulcans are more honest than other races, but deception comes in many forms.

 

[Shatmandu]

It's simple hubris.

It's like when a Puerto Rican woman tells you all Puerto Rican women are spicy-hot firecrackers in bed, and then when you beef her, she's as boring and hairy as an Irishwoman.

Joe, once bitten

 

[Cakes488]

I don't think T'Pring lied at all. She was pretty upfront about Stonn. She and Spock hadn't communicated since they were children though, which doesn't create a good foundation for a relationship.
.

I disagree...I think if we all didn't talk to our mates for long periods of time this world would be a happier place .

 

[Shatmandu]

Yes. I actually think one reason Spock likes to tell people he doesn't lie is because it gives him an advantage.

He's like a used car salesman. He won't be under sold.

Joe, acting now

 

[Cakes488]

Yes. I actually think one reason Spock likes to tell people he doesn't lie is because it gives him an advantage. .

It's very simple...Spock's lying about him lying so he's a liar.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

It's simple hubris.

It's like when a Puerto Rican woman tells you all Puerto Rican women are spicy-hot firecrackers in bed, and then when you beef her, she's as boring and hairy as an Irishwoman.

Joe, once bitten

Yeah but do Puerto Rican women claim not to ba hairy? I've never heard THAT part!

 

[ubdu]

If somebody tells you he could not lie - you better be very, very careful (shape of ears doesn´t matter )

 

[Navigator_NCC2120]

So was this just a one-time adjustment of the character in "Star Trek IV", or were those other instances continuity errors for a character that is supposed to be incapable of lying?

In "The Menagerie" McCoy says to Kirk that "Spock is a Vulcan so he is incapable of lying.", while they are on Starbase 11, just before McCoy is called back to the Enterprise to address a medical situation.

In "Bread and Circuses" McCoy complains to Spock and says "Blasted Spock, must you always be so honest!" in the scene where the Roman Tribune says the Enterprise could destroy his planet but it won't because of the Prime Directive which all of Kirk's crew swore with thier live to uphold. The Tribune then orders Kirk to have his crew beam down to participate in the Gladiator Fights.


Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

 

[Trekker4747]

"I did not lie. I... implied."


The notion that they're physically incapable of telling a false-truth is silly.

It's really just more they very much prefer not to. But if they must, they can. And when they do, they try and rationalize it.

 

[Green Shirt]

At least Spock never uttered the immortal "I'm with Starfleet, we don't lie".



I forgot, was it ever decided if Starfleet was one word, or two?

 

[Nerys Myk]

So was this just a one-time adjustment of the character in "Star Trek IV", or were those other instances continuity errors for a character that is supposed to be incapable of lying?

In "The Menagerie" McCoy says to Kirk that "Spock is a Vulcan so he is incapable of lying.", while they are on Starbase 11, just before McCoy is called back to the Enterprise to address a medical situation.



Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
/\

Which was part of an elaborate lie constructed by Spock.