Well, every time that it's established as a plot point that Vulcans Don't Lie, it's important to the plot that at least one Vulcan is lying.
Spock the liar! Spock the misanthrope!
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Well, every time that it's established as a plot point that Vulcans Don't Lie, it's important to the plot that at least one Vulcan is lying.
Yes, but I did not want to spoil the episode for anyone who has not seen it.
Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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True, but Kirk counters that he's also half-human, thus allowing for the possibility of his lying.
It seems clear that it is popular belief that Vulcans are incapable of lying, a belief that the Vulcans themselves claim to be true. It also seems clear that it's a load of bunk.
Marketing baby, marketing.True, but Kirk counters that he's also half-human, thus allowing for the possibility of his lying.
It seems clear that it is popular belief that Vulcans are incapable of lying, a belief that the Vulcans themselves claim to be true. It also seems clear that it's a load of bunk.
Klingon commander: You lie!
Spock: I am a Vulcan. I am incapable of lying.
Trek V.
Spock: I am a Vulcan. I am incapable of lying.
Trek V.
To which McCoy responds "That half is so buried that to be caught acting like us would be embarrassing to Spock." or something similar to that, thus not allowing for the possibility of Spock lying.
Navigator NCC-2120 USS Entente
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Okay, I think the final word on Spock's lying can now be accepted as the fact that he's half-human explains how he could lie even if other Vulcans can't (thanks to everyone for all the insight about that, by the way). But now the discussion that's started in this thread has me wondering if full-blooded Vulcans can lie. Does anyone remember instances of other Vulcans lying?
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It not like the pointed ears, it's not genetic.
Sarek was happy to bend the truth and use a lie of omission in "Journey to Babel."
I sort of only read the first few responses... But in Star Trek IV, Spock had sort of not really recovered his full personality yet... And he had all the vulcan teachings that he had to learn really quickly, and i guess he learnt DO NOT LIE... Whereas in the episodes, over time he had obviously learned that sometimes its ok to tell a little lie, and obviously he would soon regain that point of view when he gets his personality back completely.
I'm probably wrong but yeah..
I'm probably wrong but yeah..
I still say that T'Pring, at the very least, prevaricated a whole heck of a lot during "Amok Time." I mean, she pretended she was going to marry Spock, then she pretended she wanted Kirk instead, and it turned out that all along the one she really wanted was what's-his-name *googling*googling* Stonn. It was an act from start to finish, and acting a lie is still a form of lying.
Good point and it reminds of Sarek's lying when denying his crying when he was on TNG in the episode named after him. I guess (to paraphrase Kirk in "This Side of Paradise") Spock is a liar...from a whole race of liars!
Yeah, but Spock proves McCoy wrong on that point in the very same episode. There's no 'misrepresenting' or 'exaggerating' or 'misleading.' He's flat out lying in that episode. He tells the crew that Captain Kirk has been assigned medical rest leave, that he (Spock) has been placed in temporary command of the Enterprise, and that Kirk left instructions that the crew was to follow Spock's orders like they would Kirk's. All of which is flat-out lying.
True, but... Sarek could argue that a lie of omission is not the same thing as a direct lie to justify his actions in "Journey to Babel." And in "Sarek," he was suffering from Bendai (sp?) Syndrome, thus significantly altering the way his mind worked.
Good point and it reminds of Sarek's lying when denying his crying when he was on TNG in the episode named after him. I guess (to paraphrase Kirk in "This Side of Paradise") Spock is a liar...from a whole race of liars!
So the question remains... have we seen a full-blooded Vulcan like, say, Tuvok engaged in direct, outright lying? Well, I don't know if we've seen it directly, but it was definitely implied. In "Caretaker," Tuvok is posing as a member of the Maquis and serving aboard Chakotay's ship while actually being a Starfleet officer undercover. It would be very difficult indeed to carry out such a mission without engaging in some very direct lying, wouldn't it?
I'm sure he could argue it. But do we believe him? He is a diplomat, they need to lie on occasion. I doubt any society could survive without someone lying. Both Tuvok and T'pol were involved with espionage. A profession the requires lying and one that most governments use. T'Pols grandmother spent time on Earth pretending to be a human. As did granny's associate Mestral.True, but... Sarek could argue that a lie of omission is not the same thing as a direct lie to justify his actions in "Journey to Babel." And in "Sarek," he was suffering from Bendai (sp?) Syndrome, thus significantly altering the way his mind worked.
Good point and it reminds of Sarek's lying when denying his crying when he was on TNG in the episode named after him. I guess (to paraphrase Kirk in "This Side of Paradise") Spock is a liar...from a whole race of liars!
So the question remains... have we seen a full-blooded Vulcan like, say, Tuvok engaged in direct, outright lying? Well, I don't know if we've seen it directly, but it was definitely implied. In "Caretaker," Tuvok is posing as a member of the Maquis and serving aboard Chakotay's ship while actually being a Starfleet officer undercover. It would be very difficult indeed to carry out such a mission without engaging in some very direct lying, wouldn't it?
Spock was raised as Vulcan. He is a Vulcan culturally. (Despite what the bullies said when he was a kid) Some might say he over compensates by being even more Vulcan than a fullblooded Vulcan. So I can't buy "it's because he's half human." Again its not a genetic trait. At best there might be a cultural taboo, but one that can be overlooked in the right circumstances.
^ In fact, I agree with you. My point was only that I don't think Spock or Sarek are the definitive examples to prove that it's not impossible for Vulcans to lie. Half of Spock's genetics came from a human and Sarek was mentally incapacitated at the time we saw him lie. I think the Tuvok case makes a much better argument for normal, full-blooded, sane Vulcans being able to lie.
You are correct CoveTom. However, in all of the 79 television episodes of TOS this is the only episode that I recall that Spock lied. Given McCoy's reaction to Kirk thinking Spock might have lied (which occurred on the Starbase 11 in Commodore Mendez's Office in Part 1 of "The Menagerie") I think the general consensus by humans and possibly all the other races in The Federation, is that in general Vulcans do not lie, except maybe in very rare circumstances.
I recall seeing Tuvok explain to 7 of 9 in an episode of Voyager, about a month or so ago on Spike TV, that he only lied when ordered to do so by Captain Janeway or Starfleet to infiltrate the Marquis and that he will only lie when ordered to by Captain Janeway or Starfleet.
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gop look at the scene..
spock is lying all through that scene were he pretty declares kirk craxzy and incapble of command..
he also lies in errand of mercy and as mentioned menagerie.
yeah vulcans are far more complicated and complex then they want others to believe.
it is like sarek opposed spoock joiung starfleet due to the violence angle and then it comes out sarek knows how to execute someone with his bare hands.
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