^ And we will obviously never have anything to contradict that "gibberish", so who cares?
Spock: First Vulcan in the Fleet?
- Thread starter jimcat
- Start date
Reading through the Journey To Babel transcript I see that there Sarek is never called the Vulcan Ambassador or the Vulcan Ambassador to Federation.
This would appear to indicate Sarek served on the Federation Council.
In Search for Spock he is still being adressed by the honorific "Ambassador"
Same in The Voyage Home
Its in The Undiscovered Country were things get confused
When he shows up in the TNG episode Sarek he a Federation Ambassador.
Of the postions held by the delegates to the Coridan conference, only 32 are ambassadors. Since Sarek had retired, I assume "Ambassador" is the honorific he prefers. Just as ex Presidents get to be called "Mr. President" even though they aren't in office. I would further conjecture that he was asked to represent Vulcan interests at the conference but not as the "Vulcan Ambassador".Journey To Babel said:
Journey To Babel said:
This would appear to indicate Sarek served on the Federation Council.
In Search for Spock he is still being adressed by the honorific "Ambassador"
Though it would appear he is no longer associated with the Federation's Government.The Search for Spock said:
Same in The Voyage Home
The Voyage Home said:
Its in The Undiscovered Country were things get confused
The Vulcan Ambassador to what? To the Klingon Empire? The Federation? Or is Sarek so well known he's called "The Vulcan Ambassador", even by his son?The Undiscovered Country said:
When he shows up in the TNG episode Sarek he a Federation Ambassador.
Sarek said:
If this is the sole appearence of the expression in Trek, why not? "The Vulcan Ambassador" might be similar to "The old, limping Ambassador" or "The black Ambassador", a mere descriptive expression.
However, going back to "Journey to Babel", we have references to the Tellarite and Andorian Ambassadors' parties, even if the expressions "Tellarite Ambassador" or "Andorian Ambassador" are never used. The episode clearly indicates that there are more than thirty Ambassadors aboard, with their retinues making up the rest of the diplomatic self-loading cargo. It is these Ambassadors who will discuss the Coridan situation. It would be really weird if the people doing the discussing were all retired Ambassadors by sheer chance!
So while we can ignore the idea of Sarek as "Vulcan's Ambassador", we probably have to accept the idea that Ambassadors from one UFP nation to another are an important part of the functionings of that Federation.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm seeing it as one of two possibilities....
1.) Like I said up-thread, the Federation Council consists of directly elected Councilors and appointed Ambassadors (much like the U.S. Congress was before 1913 - with the House of Representatives being directly elected and the Senate being appointed by state legislatures).
2.) The overall government of the UFP engages in a ridiculous amount of multi-level diplomacy. We've seen that member worlds have their own ambassadors and that the UFP government itself has ambassadors. We've seen that member worlds send ambassadors to each other (in Trek XI Sarak is the Vulcan ambassador to Earth) and to foreign sovereign states (there's a Vulcan embassy to Bajor). We've seen that the UFP government sends ambassadors to member worlds (Archer becomes the UFP ambassador to Andoria) and to foreign states (numerous times).
1.) Like I said up-thread, the Federation Council consists of directly elected Councilors and appointed Ambassadors (much like the U.S. Congress was before 1913 - with the House of Representatives being directly elected and the Senate being appointed by state legislatures).
2.) The overall government of the UFP engages in a ridiculous amount of multi-level diplomacy. We've seen that member worlds have their own ambassadors and that the UFP government itself has ambassadors. We've seen that member worlds send ambassadors to each other (in Trek XI Sarak is the Vulcan ambassador to Earth) and to foreign sovereign states (there's a Vulcan embassy to Bajor). We've seen that the UFP government sends ambassadors to member worlds (Archer becomes the UFP ambassador to Andoria) and to foreign states (numerous times).
Hello everyone,
Don't forget this line from "Amok Time":
The possibility that Vulcan can be one of the founders of the Federation, and yet not participate in what is clearly meant to be a joint defensive organisation for most of the first century of its existence seems to me one of the strongest arguments against Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. It is possible that Humans simply massively outnumber everyone else. There appear to be over 1,000 colony worlds (according to Kirk in "Metamorphosis"), and yet in all the visits to colonies over the years, not one hasn't been predominantly (often apparently exclusively) Human in population. Specifically Vulcan worlds are: Vulcan (which must be pretty sparsely populated in the first place), Paan Mokar (retroceded to the Andorians) and P'Jem (which is evacuated, and may have only had one monastery and a secret base on it anyway). Beyond that we're onto "Vulcanis Lunar Colony 5", whatever that is, an unspecified relationship with the inhabitants of Rigel V, and the non-Federation Romulans and Mintakans (who seem to be a post-Reform lost Vulcan colony).
I'm not saying that the Vulcans don't have colonies, just that there are likely to be comparatively few compared to Human worlds. That's why the Federation seems "packed" with Humans, and is based on Earth: there are just so many of us. Although it's never formally explained, the name "Alpha Centauri" suggests that two of the founders of the Federation were Human-populated, either that or there are some aliens who are really bad at thinking up a name for their own planet.
As always, the evidence can go almost any way you want it to, which is almost certainly intentional. I'm happy that Spock was only one of a small but valued group of Vulcans in Starfleet, not the first by any means, and that the Vulcan-crewed Intrepid was an experiment into a different approach ("IDIC in action?") that came to an unexpected and tragic end in "The Immunity Syndrome". Others may have completely different views, and with just as much clear evidence to back them up.
Timon
Don't forget this line from "Amok Time":
I've always thought that it meant that Vulcans choose their representatives in a more logical way than elections, but it does mean that it's established on screen that at least some people are "invited" onto the Federation Council, not elected to it. Although it appears to be one of those offers you can't refuse!
The possibility that Vulcan can be one of the founders of the Federation, and yet not participate in what is clearly meant to be a joint defensive organisation for most of the first century of its existence seems to me one of the strongest arguments against Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. It is possible that Humans simply massively outnumber everyone else. There appear to be over 1,000 colony worlds (according to Kirk in "Metamorphosis"), and yet in all the visits to colonies over the years, not one hasn't been predominantly (often apparently exclusively) Human in population. Specifically Vulcan worlds are: Vulcan (which must be pretty sparsely populated in the first place), Paan Mokar (retroceded to the Andorians) and P'Jem (which is evacuated, and may have only had one monastery and a secret base on it anyway). Beyond that we're onto "Vulcanis Lunar Colony 5", whatever that is, an unspecified relationship with the inhabitants of Rigel V, and the non-Federation Romulans and Mintakans (who seem to be a post-Reform lost Vulcan colony).
I'm not saying that the Vulcans don't have colonies, just that there are likely to be comparatively few compared to Human worlds. That's why the Federation seems "packed" with Humans, and is based on Earth: there are just so many of us. Although it's never formally explained, the name "Alpha Centauri" suggests that two of the founders of the Federation were Human-populated, either that or there are some aliens who are really bad at thinking up a name for their own planet.
As always, the evidence can go almost any way you want it to, which is almost certainly intentional. I'm happy that Spock was only one of a small but valued group of Vulcans in Starfleet, not the first by any means, and that the Vulcan-crewed Intrepid was an experiment into a different approach ("IDIC in action?") that came to an unexpected and tragic end in "The Immunity Syndrome". Others may have completely different views, and with just as much clear evidence to back them up.
Timon
Like you say, the evidence is tantalizingly ambiguous. A thousand human colonies may be a bit of an exaggeration - perhaps Kirk just meant planets visited by humans, or planets claimed by humans but with various dead rocks included.
Alternately, "we are already on a thousand worlds" may mean that there are native humans on a thousand worlds, their presence discovered by Earth adventurers after Cochrane's departure, and that the expansion comes in addition to the preexistence of off-Earth humans. Many of the human cultures encountered by Kirk did not originate from Earth, at least not explicitly. It's quite possible that an equal number of worlds outside Vulcan sport Vulcan population without being Vulcan colonies.
Indeed, Mintaka seems devoid of the remains of an interstellar culture, and thus may well be a "native" Vulcan world rather than a barbarized colony. Then again, we didn't detect signs of an interstellar culture on the seemingly iron-age/medieval Ba'ku planet, either - but the very existence of an iron-age/medieval culture as a single village on an otherwise empty planet was surefire proof of interstellar colonization or transplantation. Perhaps such proof also existed for Mintaka, and we just weren't shown it?
On the other hand, Vulcans do seem to be rare in Starfleet not only by implication, but by explicit dialogue.
And Kirk does make a request where he already expects failure. "If available" is not humble politeness, because Kirk isn't humble or polite with Decker. And he isn't saying "if possible" to soften the impact, he's specifically doubting that any are available.
Any other interesting tidbits that haven't been brought up yet? This thread subject is a classic, and mere four pages of argument seem like a humble start at best...
Timo Saloniemi
Alternately, "we are already on a thousand worlds" may mean that there are native humans on a thousand worlds, their presence discovered by Earth adventurers after Cochrane's departure, and that the expansion comes in addition to the preexistence of off-Earth humans. Many of the human cultures encountered by Kirk did not originate from Earth, at least not explicitly. It's quite possible that an equal number of worlds outside Vulcan sport Vulcan population without being Vulcan colonies.
Indeed, Mintaka seems devoid of the remains of an interstellar culture, and thus may well be a "native" Vulcan world rather than a barbarized colony. Then again, we didn't detect signs of an interstellar culture on the seemingly iron-age/medieval Ba'ku planet, either - but the very existence of an iron-age/medieval culture as a single village on an otherwise empty planet was surefire proof of interstellar colonization or transplantation. Perhaps such proof also existed for Mintaka, and we just weren't shown it?
On the other hand, Vulcans do seem to be rare in Starfleet not only by implication, but by explicit dialogue.
Admittedly, Decker's expansion on the criteria of availability undermines the effect of his first claim: there might be plenty of unqualified Vulcans around, just like the next phrase tells us that there are plenty of unqualified humans around on Earth. But basically Decker does seem to be saying that there are no Vulcans of even Sonak's rough caliber around, in addition to which Kirk can never find a replacement anyway becuase the requirements are too strict.
And Kirk does make a request where he already expects failure. "If available" is not humble politeness, because Kirk isn't humble or polite with Decker. And he isn't saying "if possible" to soften the impact, he's specifically doubting that any are available.
Any other interesting tidbits that haven't been brought up yet? This thread subject is a classic, and mere four pages of argument seem like a humble start at best...
Timo Saloniemi
There are actually at least 3 Vulcan crewman already posted to the Enterprise in TMP: a female security technician/guard, a medical technician/nurse, and a dark brown uniformed science petty officer (I think - he is quite small even in HD). None appear to be officers and obviously, as you say, none are 'fully rated' on the scientific equipment.
In the comic book prequel to Star Trek Eleven movie (Star Trek: Countdown), former Captain Picard was the Federation ambassador to Vulcan in the year 2387.
But he is repeatedly referred to as "Ambassador Sarek." From all indications, Sarek (and not another Vulcan) leads the Vulcan delegation. Chekov refers to the Vulcan delegation as "Ambassador Sarek's party." My own impression is that Sarek was basically pulled out of retirement to represent Vulcan on the Coridan matter, as their Ambassador.
Or he was the Vulcan ambassador to the federation council.
There's another possibility, that council sessions don't automatically have to indicate "federation." At one point in JTB, Sarek says "My government's instructions will be heard in the council chambers on Babel." Now my take on the episode is that the council spoken of is not the federation council, but a diplomatic conferance separate from it. That's why it taking place on a neutral planetoid, and not the planet where the federation council was located in the 23rd century (Earth?).
So the council session Sarek spoke of could have been regarding a matter between Tellar and Vulcan, outside the federation council's purview.
Spock: " My father requested that I open negotiations ...
Kirk: I know your father's the Vulcan Ambassador ...
Wait a minute, if Sarek wasn't the Vulcans ambassador, and the title ambassador was only an method of honoring him, then would not some other Vulcan be the actual "The Vulcan Ambassador" that Kirk is referring to?
If we're going to start trying to suss out the Federation's basic constitutional structure, one of the things we need to remember is that "Journey to Babel" tells us nothing useful.
Why? Because Kirk's early narration makes it very clear that the Babel Conference of 2267 is being called as an emergency measure. The Federation, he makes it very clear, is on the brink of civil war over the issue of admitting Coridan to the Federation. The Conference is happening precisely because of a paralyzing political crisis, and represents a break from standard constitutional practice.
In other words, the fact that Federation Member States are clearly sending ambassadors and giving them instructions on how to vote tells us nothing about how the Federation Council normally works, because this is a clear break from the Federation's norm.
Well, yes, they do. The Federation Council decides their foreign policy for them; the Federation President gets to declare states of emergency and place Starfleet troops on their every street corner without consulting their governments; the Federation decides when they go to war and conclude peace; the Federation Council decides their warp speed limits; etc. So, yes, clearly Federation Member States yield at least some of their sovereignty by joining the UFP.
It's probably like the United States - there are some areas where they yield power to the central government, and others were the local government has exclusive jurisdiction. Consensual murder, for instance, seems to be legal on Vulcan if it's done as part of the pon farr rituals, but I doubt it's legal on Earth.
Well, I'm not sure if we should take unintelligible computer displays as authoritative.
However, my hypothesis is this, given references in TMP to "the Vulcan Embassy" and to Federation Member States having ambassadors to one-another:
The Federation is a state. It fits all of the legal definitions of a state. It possesses sovereignty, makes laws, has territory, and has the right to use force to compel obedience to its laws. It's not just a coalition or alliance or interstellar U.N. It's a state with its own government.
BUT.
It's also a state unlike any that's ever existed in real history. It's a union of over 150 planets, some of whom have multiple planets over their own jurisdiction, spread out across thousands and thousands of light-years.
It is, in other words, just too big for everything to be centralized and for all issues of intra-Federation relations to go through the Federation government.
So my hypothesis is, the Federation allows its Member States to conduct direct bilateral relations with one-another, and with foreign states, within the context of Federation law. These relations, I'm sure, have to be consistent with Federation law and policy, but the UFP is probably just too big for the thing to function if it doesn't.
There's some precedent for this in real life. U.S. states in real life can form what are called "interstate compacts" with one-another. Many state governors maintain offices in the Washington, D.C., area in order to directly lobby the federal government on behalf of the state government (since the Congressional delegations don't work for the states), and many also maintain foreign offices to lobby foreign governments and companies on their states' behalf.
My thought is that the Federation allows its Member States to conduct direct bilateral relations with one-another and with foreign states, and that they retain the title of "Ambassador" and their missions the status of "embassies" because of inertia and tradition, carried over from prior to Federation Membership.
Well, not necessarily. Spock describes himself as having initiated contact with Gorkon "at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador." It's possible to interpret that as indicating that the Vulcan government initiated the process, but it's also possible to interpret that as the Federation government initiating the process on the advice of Sarek -- perhaps in his capacity as Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth, or perhaps in some other capacity. (He was advising President Ra-ghoratreii -- maybe he became a member of the President's cabinet while retaining the nickname "the Vulcan Ambassador?" My personal theory is that he was Federation Secretary of the Exterior, but that's just me guessin'.)
Well, the exact sentence was, "Federation Council members have to be chosen. That could imply multiple Federation Councillors, but it could also just be him speaking generically in the plural for all future elections/selections, with Bajor only receiving one Federation Councillor.
Fascinating! I've often wondered if the Federation had to go through the same kinds of crises about finding the right balance between Federation and Member State power that the U.S. had to go through in finding the right balance between federal and state power -- or that the European Union is currently going through.
Exactly. You can't compare the Federation to the United Nations because the U.N. isn't a state and doesn't have a government. It is an organization that exists to facilitate the ability of its Member States to enter into relations with one-another, to peacefully resolve conflicts, to develop international law (i.e., treaties), and to launch multilateral ventures. It has no defined territory, it has no military of its own, and it has no inherent right to use force to compel obedience to its mandates. It does not possess sovereignty over its Member States.
Think of it this way: The U.N. is to the Federation as the Rotary Club is to the United States Navy. It can set the terms of its Membership, but it can't actually control its Members, nor prevent its Members from leaving. The USN can.
"Gibberish?" Really? That's rude to the authors who put a lot of hard work into writing a lot of really great Star Trek tales.
And so what if it's non-canonical? We can accept it provisionally, until or unless future canon contradicts it. It's been vetted and approved by CBS/Paramount, which is more than what anyone else can say.
I like this idea.
I tend to dislike any hypothesis that involves postulating that the Federation Council is a bicameral legislature. Partially this is because we've seen no indication that it is anything but a unicameral legislature, and partially this is because I don't really like bicameralism all that much.
Well, setting aside the usual caveat that I don't know if we should take barely-legible computer screens as authoritative, I'd point out that we don't actually know whose ambassador to Andoria Archer was. It just said, "Ambassador to Andoria." It's entirely possible that Archer was serving as the United Earth Ambassador to the Andorian Empire, all within the context of Federation law and policy, while someone else was serving as Federation Councillor from United Earth and as Federation Councillor from the Andorian Empire.
No, it does not. That line is very ambiguous. It's entirely possible, for instance, that T'Pau was simply so politically well-respected that she would have been a shoe-in had she chosen to stand for election. McCoy described her as "all of Vulcan in one package;" if she's so well-respected, I could easily see her potential opponents simply choosing not to stand against her and her ending up standing for election unopposed.
Alternately, it could mean, not that membership on the Federation Council comes by invitation, but that the Vulcan head of government wanted to appoint her to the Federation Council. Maybe the Vulcan First Minister wanted to appoint her and she turned her down. Who knows?
You could interpret that as meaning that membership is by invitation, but that's not the only interpretation.
Why? Because Kirk's early narration makes it very clear that the Babel Conference of 2267 is being called as an emergency measure. The Federation, he makes it very clear, is on the brink of civil war over the issue of admitting Coridan to the Federation. The Conference is happening precisely because of a paralyzing political crisis, and represents a break from standard constitutional practice.
In other words, the fact that Federation Member States are clearly sending ambassadors and giving them instructions on how to vote tells us nothing about how the Federation Council normally works, because this is a clear break from the Federation's norm.
Well, yes, they do. The Federation Council decides their foreign policy for them; the Federation President gets to declare states of emergency and place Starfleet troops on their every street corner without consulting their governments; the Federation decides when they go to war and conclude peace; the Federation Council decides their warp speed limits; etc. So, yes, clearly Federation Member States yield at least some of their sovereignty by joining the UFP.
It's probably like the United States - there are some areas where they yield power to the central government, and others were the local government has exclusive jurisdiction. Consensual murder, for instance, seems to be legal on Vulcan if it's done as part of the pon farr rituals, but I doubt it's legal on Earth.
Well, I'm not sure if we should take unintelligible computer displays as authoritative.
However, my hypothesis is this, given references in TMP to "the Vulcan Embassy" and to Federation Member States having ambassadors to one-another:
The Federation is a state. It fits all of the legal definitions of a state. It possesses sovereignty, makes laws, has territory, and has the right to use force to compel obedience to its laws. It's not just a coalition or alliance or interstellar U.N. It's a state with its own government.
BUT.
It's also a state unlike any that's ever existed in real history. It's a union of over 150 planets, some of whom have multiple planets over their own jurisdiction, spread out across thousands and thousands of light-years.
It is, in other words, just too big for everything to be centralized and for all issues of intra-Federation relations to go through the Federation government.
So my hypothesis is, the Federation allows its Member States to conduct direct bilateral relations with one-another, and with foreign states, within the context of Federation law. These relations, I'm sure, have to be consistent with Federation law and policy, but the UFP is probably just too big for the thing to function if it doesn't.
There's some precedent for this in real life. U.S. states in real life can form what are called "interstate compacts" with one-another. Many state governors maintain offices in the Washington, D.C., area in order to directly lobby the federal government on behalf of the state government (since the Congressional delegations don't work for the states), and many also maintain foreign offices to lobby foreign governments and companies on their states' behalf.
My thought is that the Federation allows its Member States to conduct direct bilateral relations with one-another and with foreign states, and that they retain the title of "Ambassador" and their missions the status of "embassies" because of inertia and tradition, carried over from prior to Federation Membership.
Well, not necessarily. Spock describes himself as having initiated contact with Gorkon "at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador." It's possible to interpret that as indicating that the Vulcan government initiated the process, but it's also possible to interpret that as the Federation government initiating the process on the advice of Sarek -- perhaps in his capacity as Vulcan Ambassador to United Earth, or perhaps in some other capacity. (He was advising President Ra-ghoratreii -- maybe he became a member of the President's cabinet while retaining the nickname "the Vulcan Ambassador?" My personal theory is that he was Federation Secretary of the Exterior, but that's just me guessin'.)
Well, the exact sentence was, "Federation Council members have to be chosen. That could imply multiple Federation Councillors, but it could also just be him speaking generically in the plural for all future elections/selections, with Bajor only receiving one Federation Councillor.
Fascinating! I've often wondered if the Federation had to go through the same kinds of crises about finding the right balance between Federation and Member State power that the U.S. had to go through in finding the right balance between federal and state power -- or that the European Union is currently going through.
For the same reason member nations of the United Nations have Ambassadors to the UN.Why would Vulcan need an ambassador to a government of which it is already a member?
The Federation is more of an actual government than the UN is.
Exactly. You can't compare the Federation to the United Nations because the U.N. isn't a state and doesn't have a government. It is an organization that exists to facilitate the ability of its Member States to enter into relations with one-another, to peacefully resolve conflicts, to develop international law (i.e., treaties), and to launch multilateral ventures. It has no defined territory, it has no military of its own, and it has no inherent right to use force to compel obedience to its mandates. It does not possess sovereignty over its Member States.
Think of it this way: The U.N. is to the Federation as the Rotary Club is to the United States Navy. It can set the terms of its Membership, but it can't actually control its Members, nor prevent its Members from leaving. The USN can.
"Gibberish?" Really? That's rude to the authors who put a lot of hard work into writing a lot of really great Star Trek tales.
And so what if it's non-canonical? We can accept it provisionally, until or unless future canon contradicts it. It's been vetted and approved by CBS/Paramount, which is more than what anyone else can say.
I like this idea.
I tend to dislike any hypothesis that involves postulating that the Federation Council is a bicameral legislature. Partially this is because we've seen no indication that it is anything but a unicameral legislature, and partially this is because I don't really like bicameralism all that much.
Well, setting aside the usual caveat that I don't know if we should take barely-legible computer screens as authoritative, I'd point out that we don't actually know whose ambassador to Andoria Archer was. It just said, "Ambassador to Andoria." It's entirely possible that Archer was serving as the United Earth Ambassador to the Andorian Empire, all within the context of Federation law and policy, while someone else was serving as Federation Councillor from United Earth and as Federation Councillor from the Andorian Empire.
No, it does not. That line is very ambiguous. It's entirely possible, for instance, that T'Pau was simply so politically well-respected that she would have been a shoe-in had she chosen to stand for election. McCoy described her as "all of Vulcan in one package;" if she's so well-respected, I could easily see her potential opponents simply choosing not to stand against her and her ending up standing for election unopposed.
Alternately, it could mean, not that membership on the Federation Council comes by invitation, but that the Vulcan head of government wanted to appoint her to the Federation Council. Maybe the Vulcan First Minister wanted to appoint her and she turned her down. Who knows?
You could interpret that as meaning that membership is by invitation, but that's not the only interpretation.
That's what I always thought. I can't remember other "aliens" as crew on TOS' Enterprise. Were there others?
Am I wrong in thinking that Sarek was mad (well, for a Vulcan) that Spock not only did NOT go to the Vulcan Science Academy, but went into StarFleet? Since there was the Intrepid, Vulcans either served in StarFleet, albeit on Vulcan-exclusive ships, or provided their own ship to StarFleet. So Sarek looked down on StarFleet as an institution?
And I figured Sarek was Vulcan's ambassador to the Federation, similar to a country's ambassador to the UN. The family seems to be heavy into diplomacy, since T'Pau (matriarch?) turned down a seat on the Fed Council. Maybe Sarek didn't like that Spock was going with the "fighting arm" of the Federation, when they were diplomats.
Second column, third from the bottom. This wasn't a one time brief image, but a standard feature of the prominade. On DS9, we found out that Kor was the past Klingon Ambassador to Vulcan.
Actually JTB is our one clear example of the federation memberships decision making process. What's depicted could very well be the standard, the membership might constantly be at each others throats. Sarek has had acrimonious "debates" with Ambassador Gav in the past.
Kirk's Captain Log said this: The Coridan system has been claimed by some of the races now aboard our ship as delegates, races who have strong personal reasons for keeping Coridan out of the Federation. Obviously the federation lack the power and authority to simply tell the the membership what to do. But given that the federation council is composed of representatives who are citizens from those very same worlds, how could it?
Kirk's narrative says no such thing, he says that the conference is being held at a neutral location. and there's disagreement on the entry issue.
Civil War is likely overstating things.
But we don't know what the "constitutional practice" is, for all we know, the membership always meets on neutral ground to consider a new entry into the federation's membership. Standard practice might be to completely cut the federation council out of the loop, with the membership's Ambassadors and Delegates making the entry debate separately every time. The federation council is simply informed of the eventual results of the deliberations.
Again we don't know what the norm is. But we do have this example, with nothing to refute it. Member's raging at each other could be a daily occurrence in the federation council.
Except there is the example of Vulcan (and by extension other members) that has it own foreign policy agenda. It has embassies with at least two foreign political entities, and perhaps more. No indications the these are "pretend" embassies. Spock's (private) efforts in Unification seem aimed at a rejoining of Vulcans and Romulans, not the federation and Romulans.
Which happen only on Earth, the planet that hold the federation council. And so might be a special case.
Except it just might be a political coalition. Or a trade and defense alliance, one with a central organization, with well defined limited powers.
The federation (maybe) is a interstellar homeowners association.
There are other examples. Most of Canadian provinces have a department for international affairs and the leeway with which they can operate is noted as a key characteristic of Canadian foreign policy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Canada#Federalism_and_foreign_relations). I think German states also have some sort of representation in Berlin and can conduct foreign policy to a degree.
I'm sure it must have. I haven't read the Romulan war novel(s) but if they show the founding of the Federation I sincerely hope they resist the urge to show it as being practically identical with what we saw later. The broad outline of the institutions okay, but the Federation should be a lot less unified at that point.
I tend to think it's unicameral as well. But it brings up the question - is the Council an equivalent of a lower or an upper house? Is representation proportional to population or are Member States equally represented? There's, of course, a reason bicameralism exists. Each member sending one councillor in the novels would suggest the second aproach. And indeed, Member States are so distinct and different amongst themselves (waay more different than US states or even EU members) that equal representation makes sense. But then, it's also probable there are big differences in Member States' population sizes. If we follow that aproach and there are multiple Councillors per member, the number each member sends might be different. Perhaps not as large a difference as if following total proportionality but still more than total equality? If there's just one Councillor per member, I guess that would translate to Councillors having a different number of votes amongst themselves... Something like the Council of the EU when it votes on most matters.
Or maybe the requirement for something to pass is that the Councillors who voted for it represent both over half of the Member States and over half of the total population of the Federation. Sort of a "two houses in one" approach.
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems is mentioned in four episodes and one of the movies. Plus the directory in the DS9 promenade.
Yoyodyne built the engines for the DY-500's. And the USS Hathaway was built by them, they have (per canon) shipyards at 40 Eridani A , San Francisco Fleet Yards, and Copernicus Ship Yards. The Hathaway was constructed at "Luna," which might be the Copernicus Ship Yards, there being a large crater on the moon named "Copernicus.
The promenade directory also lists the infirmary and the constable's office.
I also see Bowling Alley, Federation Consulate, Klingon Consulate, Forbin Project, Quark's Bar, Spacely Sprockets (Jetsons), among others.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
I'm fairly certain that graphic is reproduced in "The Making of Star Trek Deep Space Nine" by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens. I'll try to scan and post a copy tonight.
TMP included Starfleet crew of Rhaandarites, Saurians, Arcturians, Vulcans, Deltans, Andorians, Betelgeusians, Zaranites, and Tellarites. Background information also shows K'Normians, although I haven't spotted one of them in the background. TAS also featured Caitians and Edoans. Crewman Worene in the Rec Deck scene looks like a Tellarite and I treat her as such because we've never seen one anywhere else in Trek history (or maybe we have and they look just like the men). I think the actress herself titled her species as something more akin to the Kzinti of Czinti or something, which are cat-like (possible) relatives of the Caitians. The novel Ex Machina uses quite a bit of the background material on the aliens featured and I tried to include quite a few of them in my Youtube comic using stills from TMP. Most of the species in Journey to Babel were not named and have never been featured since and I don't think that we see any integrated alien crew in TOS apart from Spock.
I think the Federation is exactly that - a federation. It has its own governing body and its own head (elected president and council) but the member worlds retain autonomy, have their own governments, and their own ambassadors. Sarek, in my view, should have been titled as the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth, although that would not prohibit him from representing Vulcan at other negotiations on behalf of his people such as the Babel conference and retaining the title of ambassador. I think his role was just blurred depedent on the story. The 'ambassadors' to the Federation would be its councillors.
FYI in the novelisation of STIV, Uhura claims asylum at the Vulcan Embassy.
Similar threads
