species strength question

[Timo]

We know (from DS9 and Voyager) that in the 24th century, gravity can be localized, so everybody should be pretty much fine.

Hey, gravity was localized in ENT already, as per the "sweet spot" and Archer's shower incident.

And in TOS, for that matter. If a shuttle can have its own gravity, why couldn't Kirk's cabin?

That said, I'd be surprised if the Romulans didn't look for a planet that had similar gravity to Vulcan's. I mean, given the option--and in Trek there are clearly tons of options for uninhabited but decent planets, and probably more back then--would you settle for a planet with .7G? Sure, it'd be cool for a while, but you'd wind up all atrophied.

Probably they didn't have that much choice. And who knows, their lush and watery world might actually be a hellhole for Vulcanoids - the equivalent of a putrid swamp to a human? Refugees or fugitives might end up in all sorts of sewers, especially if their transportation didn't have much speed or range.

On the general issue of strength, I doubt that fights are a good way to establish muscular capability. The strongest man on Earth might fall for one well-placed left hook from a weaker than average challenger, because muscular strength doesn't exactly protect one's jaw. If two humanoids wrestled... Now that might tell us something. And wrestling is exactly what was established to be hopeless for a human in "Take Me to the Holosuite".

Was T'Pol ever wrestled down? By somebody who couldn't wrestle down Archer (as opposed to a villain who got bested by Archer because our heroic captain punched him first)? I'm not all that familiar with ENT yet, having only seen a fraction of the episodes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EmperorTiberius]

If Klingons are so strong, then why do we see so many humans holding their own or even winning a typical fist fight with them?

I always LMAO when I remember humans wiping the floor with Klingons in Way of the Warrior, and even a bajoran female, after getting stabbed, manages to crush a big Klingon with her elbows alone Either Kira is several times stronger than a human or the Klingons are equivalent of children.


My only solution to these problems of "strength of plot" aliens is that humans are the only species that can improve strength. It's the only way they can hold their own in most of those scenes. Think about it:
If a human can bench press 120 lbs on average, a Vulcan could do 360 lbs!!! It would be an absolute annihilation, the human wouldn't even come close! Now, humans can exercise their way up to 360 (someone like Sisko or Riker), but Vulcans/Klingons can't. Or may be they didn't bother improving their starting strength to begin with, which is hard to believe.

 

[Myasishchev]

We know (from DS9 and Voyager) that in the 24th century, gravity can be localized, so everybody should be pretty much fine.

Hey, gravity was localized in ENT already, as per the "sweet spot" and Archer's shower incident.

And in TOS, for that matter. If a shuttle can have its own gravity, why couldn't Kirk's cabin?

That said, I'd be surprised if the Romulans didn't look for a planet that had similar gravity to Vulcan's. I mean, given the option--and in Trek there are clearly tons of options for uninhabited but decent planets, and probably more back then--would you settle for a planet with .7G? Sure, it'd be cool for a while, but you'd wind up all atrophied.

Probably they didn't have that much choice. And who knows, their lush and watery world might actually be a hellhole for Vulcanoids - the equivalent of a putrid swamp to a human? Refugees or fugitives might end up in all sorts of sewers, especially if their transportation didn't have much speed or range.

That is a good point... although you'd figure Romulus would have plenty of cozy deserts, since it seems pretty much like Earth.

 

[BenRoethig]

Klingons, personally I think are stronger because of the overly militarized culture as much as anything genetic.

 

[Timo]

But the thing is, they aren't stronger. There's absolutely no indication that they would be.

No Klingon has ever displayed superior strength in combat. Jadzia Dax can wrestle a sword out of Worf's hands if need be, in a quest of muscular strength.

No Klingon has ever displayed superior strength in lifting or bending work. When Worf fails to dislodge a piece of debris or a jammed door, it's Riker who steps in and forces the obstacle away with his well-trained muscles.

No Klingon has ever displayed superior stamina, either. Pain-enduring contests are one thing. Wandering through deserts or climbing across mountain ranges is another, and many other species seem to triumph there.

So, no reason we should believe it if the Klingons claim they have superior strength. But the thing is, they don't even do that. There's no such claim made in any Star Trek episode or movie, by Klingons or by others.

Klingons aren't superstrong. They are simply great worriers. And people tend to misunderstand or mishear that one, too...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Since Romulans are supposedly genetically practically indistinguishable from Vulcans, it follows that they have to be physically strong as Vulcans.

But then, it also follows that they're not supposed to have ridged foreheads...

The thing is they're not genetically indistinguishable from Vulcans. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed Worf's whatever it was in The Enemy to cure the Romulan. Instead, they could have used a Vulcan crew member.

Ridges could be explained the same way (although it's clear there are non-ridged Romulans, or else Spock would have been immediately noticed as non-Romulan).

 

[Timo]

The thing is they're not genetically indistinguishable from Vulcans. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed Worf's whatever it was in The Enemy to cure the Romulan. Instead, they could have used a Vulcan crew member.

That doesn't follow. Perhaps all Vulcan and all Klingon blood, plus all Bolian and all Bugomite blood, is in theory compatible - but only if it is of F-negative type. And all the Vulcans aboard were of the S-rhomboid or T-indecisive blood type...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

We did see Worf display superior strength once--taking on a Borg in BOBW. Possibly again in FC.

 

[Timo]

That's a display of superior courage, I'd say. It doesn't necessarily tell about superior strength, or superior intellect...

Worf held back a mechanically augmented arm in "BoBW", for a while, with great effort. A human might have done it, too; Data could snap such arms in half, but he's another matter differently. In ST:FC, Worf didn't do any better than his human security goons.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Holder]

Going to agree with Timo as I can not recall where it was ever stated point of fact that Klingons were stronger than humans. Vulcans however were shown to be incredibly strong numerous times mostly in regards to Spock.
Still, I always wanted them to show someone's hands after getting in a fight with a Klingon. You would think their hands would be all bloody and busted up. I mean I would not want to punch a Klingon in the face with all those ridges.

I do not think stronger gravity has anything to do with Vulcans being strong. If they were stong due to gravity, would they not have a hard time walking around on starships, or on Earth, or planets with weaker gravity? Much like our astronauts while walking on the moon. They soon realized they could not walk and had to do the bunny hop. I guess Vulcans could walk around with weights in their pants lol.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

from memoryalpha

On average, Klingons were larger and physically stronger than Humans, though they possessed much less tolerance for cold weather. (VOY: "Displaced"; DS9: "Change of Heart")

Also :

There is a great deal more multiple redundancy in their organs, a principle they call brak'lul. This allowed Klingons to survive severe injuries in battle. They had twenty-three ribs, two livers, an eight chambered heart, three lungs, and even redundant neural function and multiple stomachs. Some geneticists believed that the extra organs, notably the third lung, evolved to give Klingons greater stamina on the battlefield. (TNG: "Ethics"; VOY: "Lineage")

Soon after his arrival on Gault, the seven-year-old bloodied the noses of five teenage boys, whom Worf deemed "disrespectful". In 2353, at thirteen years of age, Worf led his school's soccer team to the championships, where, in an attempt to score, he collided with another player, Mikel. The impact of Klingon ridges against a Human skull snapped Mikel's neck, and the boy died the next day.

 

[Longinus]

Overall impression I've got over the years is that Klingons would be slightly stronger than humans, not that I can recall many specific examples. Hmm... Kruge seems to lift Kirk by neck rather easily. Not that a very strong human couldn't do that too.

 

[DevilEyes]

If Klingons are so strong, then why do we see so many humans holding their own or even winning a typical fist fight with them?

I always LMAO when I remember humans wiping the floor with Klingons in Way of the Warrior, and even a bajoran female, after getting stabbed, manages to crush a big Klingon with her elbows alone Either Kira is several times stronger than a human or the Klingons are equivalent of children.

Well, as Timo pointed out above, a fight is not a proper indicator of physical strength - since skill and fast reflexes play a large part in it. Which may answer all those "how can Kira beat up all those large males?" questions: she's obviously not going to win them on strength, but It's not like she's a 16 year old high school girl who beats up everyone despite having absolutely no training apart from a middle-aged librarian reading her stuff about her special destined role. Kira has, after all, been a guerilla fighter since the age of 12, and we could presume that Bajoran Resistance members didn't just blow stuff up and fly small planes, but needed to learn to fight as well, and perhaps learned techniques how to incapacitate opponents, especially Cardassians.After all, we have this thing on Earth called "martial arts" that is supposed to allow people to beat larger and stronger opponents in a physical fight, so why wouldn't Trek aliens have similar skills?

Now, if Kira was lift someone up with one hand, or pull out a large metal door, or break chains (like some of the Cylons in BSG), that would be incredible. But just being a good fighter, for someone of her background... I don't find it that incredible.

As for the Klingons... well, maybe they aren't all really such great fighters as they like to believe? Maybe too much of their experience has been in drunken brawls and their discipline and training is inferior to Cardassians or Starfleet Humans?

The thing is they're not genetically indistinguishable from Vulcans. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed Worf's whatever it was in The Enemy to cure the Romulan. Instead, they could have used a Vulcan crew member.

That doesn't follow. Perhaps all Vulcan and all Klingon blood, plus all Bolian and all Bugomite blood, is in theory compatible - but only if it is of F-negative type. And all the Vulcans aboard were of the S-rhomboid or T-indecisive blood type...

Timo Saloniemi

Yeah - we know that Humans are all genetically very similar to each other, so much that there is no sub-species within the species, but they still don't all have compatible blood. Even closest relatives might have different blood types and not be compatible blood donors.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^ After a certain point, skill won't help you defeat a stronger opponent. That's only in the movies. That only works when they are close in strength. I'll never buy Kira taking out that Klingon, unless Bajor women are a lot stronger than human women, which might as well be the case.

As for the librarian, low blow

 

[Longinus]

^ After a certain point, skill won't help you defeat a stronger opponent. That's only in the movies. That only works when they are close in strength. I'll never buy Kira taking out that Klingon, unless Bajor women are a lot stronger than human women, which might as well be the case.

Oh! So you are basically saying that a fit and well trained human female could never beat a big and burly human male?

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^ After a certain point, skill won't help you defeat a stronger opponent. That's only in the movies. That only works when they are close in strength. I'll never buy Kira taking out that Klingon, unless Bajor women are a lot stronger than human women, which might as well be the case.

Oh! So you are basically saying that a fit and well trained human female could never beat a big and burly human male?

A human female that looks like Kira? No.

 

[Longinus]

A human female that looks like Kira? No.

Why?

 

[Joby]

from memoryalpha

On average, Klingons were larger and physically stronger than Humans, though they possessed much less tolerance for cold weather. (VOY: "Displaced"; DS9: "Change of Heart")

Also :

There is a great deal more multiple redundancy in their organs, a principle they call brak'lul. This allowed Klingons to survive severe injuries in battle. They had twenty-three ribs, two livers, an eight chambered heart, three lungs, and even redundant neural function and multiple stomachs. Some geneticists believed that the extra organs, notably the third lung, evolved to give Klingons greater stamina on the battlefield. (TNG: "Ethics"; VOY: "Lineage")

Soon after his arrival on Gault, the seven-year-old bloodied the noses of five teenage boys, whom Worf deemed "disrespectful". In 2353, at thirteen years of age, Worf led his school's soccer team to the championships, where, in an attempt to score, he collided with another player, Mikel. The impact of Klingon ridges against a Human skull snapped Mikel's neck, and the boy died the next day.

I've never been a fan of the Klingons having all these extra phyical attributes like an 8 chambered heart or three lungs to make them superior physical specimens. They basically become the ultimate super soldier, even the best trained human would have a hard time contending with a Klingon if this were really the case. Yet in Star Trek we see time and time again how Klingons get their asses handed to them by humans or some other humanoid alien in fist fights/brawls.

The only time I ever remember a Klingon beating a human was obviously in The Search for Spock when Kirk's son David was killed. But David was a scientist who seemed way out of league against that Klingon.

 

[Myasishchev]

Since Romulans are supposedly genetically practically indistinguishable from Vulcans, it follows that they have to be physically strong as Vulcans.

But then, it also follows that they're not supposed to have ridged foreheads...

The thing is they're not genetically indistinguishable from Vulcans. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed Worf's whatever it was in The Enemy to cure the Romulan. Instead, they could have used a Vulcan crew member.

His blood. This is among the stupidest things ever put in Star Trek. It might be stupider, after a fashion, than Threshold.

Imagine if a man was bleeding out. His only hope would not be a transfusion from a horseshoe crab or common octopus. Likewise, red iron blood (or pink iron blood--hemerythrin?--if you wish) is not likely to prolong the life of a man whose biology runs on a copper-based respiratory pigment.

 

[Anticitizen]

This is from a police department's physical fitness requirements page:

Q5. What physical fitness test must I pass?



A5. The physical fitness tests are based on the Cooper Aerobics Institute standards. You must pass at least at the 35th percentile on entrance and the 50th on exit. The standards are as follows:Age 18-29 35th percentile 50th percentile
<snip>
1 repetition maximum effort bench press (female)
% of body weight 58 65

If I read that correctly, a female must bench press (one press) 58% of her own body weight to pass a physical fitness test. Therefore, a female who is physically fit can bench press about 58% of her body weight. Let's apply that to T'Pol... how much do you think she weighed, 110 lbs? Maybe? If she were human, she'd be expected to press 60 lbs or so. Triple that for 'Vulcan Strength', and you've got a humanoid who can bench press around 180... very good for a 110-pound female, obviously, but hardly super-duper-human by general humanoid standards. As a six-foot-four 235-pound male, I can top that quite handily.

Therefore, it's hardly sexist to depict her occasionally struggling with a heavy object or being weaker than her large, male cohorts.

(I just googled for Jolene Blalock's height and weight - she's 5'6, couldn't find any weight info, but her stuntwoman weighs 111, which is right in line with my guess.)