species strength question

[Holder]

Don't blow me up, I am sure this has been discussed before on here, I searched for threads but could not locate them.

I was having a friendly debate with regards to the strength of vulcans. I thought I remembered an episode of DS9 where it was said that Vulcans and Klingons were about the same with regards to strength. Both being 8 times stronger than humans. In my debate the other party stated that Vulcans were only 3 times stronger than humans, honestly that makes more sense as 8 times seems kind of extreme. I am not above admitting that I was wrong but I was wondering if anyone here had any imput or if they could remember anything more conclusive.
I am also aware that their strength was relative to what the story called for, but I think you guys get the jist of my question.
The DS9 episode I referrenced above was "Take me out to the Holosuite" BTW.

 

[Joby]

If Klingons are so strong, then why do we see so many humans holding their own or even winning a typical fist fight with them?

 

[Daneel]

As I said in the thread on the same issue in the DS9 forum, it is stated in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" that Vulcans are generally about 3 times stronger than humans, IIRC.

Don't know about Klingons.

 

[Holder]

As I said in the thread on the same issue in the DS9 forum, it is stated in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" that Vulcans are generally about 3 times stronger than humans, IIRC.

Don't know about Klingons.

Thank You for your response. No idea where I got 8 from, that would make them pretty much supermen lol. Thanks again.

 

[Myasishchev]

Vulcans are often portrayed as significantly stronger than humans (and Klingons)--from Amok Time to Mirror, Mirror to The Search For Spock to Take Me Out to the Holosuite to Star Trek 11, they tend to be able to kick ass. That said, they kind of have the "strength of plot" so if the plot demands they get taken down, it happens (like in that one Enterprise episode where Archer--of all people--actually beats up a Vulcan).

You know, I bitch a lot about the problems with ST11 (not as much as some, obviously, but a fair bit), but they were really consistent with Vulcans (and Romulans) having significantly greater than average strength. I mean, Kirk, who is supposed to be scrappy, gets the shit kicked out of three times by Vulcans/Romulans, who barely break a sweat. Those were great parts.

On the other hand, it's hard to square massive strength with a copper-based blood pigment with 1/4 the carrying capacity of hemoglobin.

I'm not convinced Klingons, pound for pound, are even as strong as humans. They certainly aren't portrayed as any stronger than any species I can think of, and humans, Bajorans, Cardassians, and Trill all seem to be able to easily best them in physical combat, even if they're much smaller and hormonally limited. It would be ironic and hilarious for the warrior culture to discover, once they ventured out into space, that, physically, they're the wusses of the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I was watching the episode "Twilight" (not the movie LOL but the enterprise ep) and the people who worked on the show commented on a scene where T'Pol struggled but couldn't lift up some metal. They were thinkijng that Vulcan females are as strong (actually as weak as human females) Interesting.

It seems Andorian woman are stronger than human men (that episode where Talas seemed relaxed while beating up a human military soldier

 

[Joby]

Spock could have easily accidenlty or intently, crushed Kirk's throat and strangled him to death in that scene in Trek XI. I mean they are supposed to be 3 times stronger then humans and he seems like he was squeezing Kirk's throat pretty hard.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Of course, how much of Vulcan strength is inherent in their biology and how much is a result of living in a high-gravity environment? If a Vulcan grew up on Earth or another world with lower gravity, would they still be as strong?

 

[Longinus]

Vulcans are consistently shown to be tremendously strong, except in ST:Enterprise, where T'pol is seems to be your typical powerless Hollywood female, and can easily be overpowered by anyone with balls. Klingons seem to be only slightly stronger than humans, if stronger at all. Interestingly, even though Romulans are generally shown as quite capable, I don't remember them ever depicted with kind of super-strength than Vulcans seem to posses. Maybe Rumulus has much lower gravity than 2G of Vulcan, and consequently Romulans do not develop muscles to match their full genetic potential.

 

[Joby]

^There was that one Romulan in Trek XI that lifted Kirk up from one the Narada's catwalks with one arm.

 

[Longinus]

^There was that one Romulan in Trek XI that lifted Kirk up from the catwalk with one arm.

Yeah but... considering the amount of deviation from canon that film had, I would take anything from it with grain of salt when it comes to assessing the reality of the prime universe. Not that I have anything against Romulans being as strong as Vulcans per se, I just do not remember them being depicted as such before, not that I'd remember them depicted as particularly weak either.

 

[Joby]

^..but remember that Romulan was from the prime universe....

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I would be wary of using one person as an example of a species (it could be just one really strong Romulan). On the other hand, there's nothing really to suggest Romulans aren't stronger, since they don't tend to like to get their hands dirty and generally don't get into physical combat. I guess the same thing is with T'Pol, although, since no other Vulcan female was shown to be strong, maybe it's possible that the males are only the ones stronger.

No idea about Klingons.

 

[Longinus]

^..but remember that Romulan was from the prime universe....

Ah, that's not the point. I mean the whole movie's attitude to canon was fast and loose, beyond the alteration of the time line. But that is entirely different discussion, and one I'm sure has been covered with sufficient fervour elsewhere on these forums ten times over.

As I said, I really do not have particular problem with superstrong Romulans, it just wasn't the impression I got from the Trek before XI. Can anyone recall any incidents (apart XI) where a Romulan would 1) demonstrate great strength 2) would demonstrate lack of such strength (i.e. fail to lift something, be overpowered by a human etc.) 3) be in a situation where strength would be useful, but not utilise it? Not that it would matter much, as both 2 and 3 happened to T'pol regularly, and she was a Vulcan.

 

[Longinus]

I guess the same thing is with T'Pol, although, since no other Vulcan female was shown to be strong, maybe it's possible that the males are only the ones stronger.

I'd really hate that. It seems sexist and stupid. Sure Spock can be superstrong, but female Vulcans has to be feeble so Archer can be manly and heroic and come to the rescue. And it doesn't even make sense, Vulcans are so strong because they are ovelved on a planet with high gravity, surely that has to affect both sexes equally?

 

[Myasishchev]

Of course, how much of Vulcan strength is inherent in their biology and how much is a result of living in a high-gravity environment? If a Vulcan grew up on Earth or another world with lower gravity, would they still be as strong?

Presumably, it's inherent, as otherwise Spock--who hadn't lived on Vulcan in years--would have been weakened by living in a 1G environment. Of course, he would have had to have been, somewhat.

However, I don't think Vulcan is really particularly massive. Surface gravity is probably no more than 1.2G. If it were 2G, as someone upthread suggested, Kirk and McCoy would barely have been able to stand.

And what does "3 times stronger than humans" means anyway? There isn't any specific number you can place on "human strength," it's a range of values over a range of categories. I mean, there are lots of people who are three times stronger than me--they're not Vulcans. There are also a great deal of humans that I am three times stronger than--that is, small children and malnourished women.

It's probably just a good "rule of thumb" when dealing with Vulcans.

^There was that one Romulan in Trek XI that lifted Kirk up from one the Narada's catwalks with one arm.

Also in that scene: a fall, which if it took place in 1G, would have broken most the bones in Kirk's body.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Are there any other species we've seen be consistently stronger than humans besides Klingons, Vulcans, and Borg?

(For instance, I would say Cardassians are probably no different than humans...)

 

[DevilEyes]

Since Romulans are supposedly genetically practically indistinguishable from Vulcans, it follows that they have to be physically strong as Vulcans.

But then, it also follows that they're not supposed to have ridged foreheads...

Of course, how much of Vulcan strength is inherent in their biology and how much is a result of living in a high-gravity environment? If a Vulcan grew up on Earth or another world with lower gravity, would they still be as strong?

Presumably, it's inherent, as otherwise Spock--who hadn't lived on Vulcan in years--would have been weakened by living in a 1G environment. Of course, he would have had to have been, somewhat.

The gravity thing doesn't make much sense to me, unless it's supposed to be an evolutionary trait developed long time ago (which would, again, be before the Romulan split). I find it hard to believe that Vulcans would change their physical strength based on how much time they spend on Vulcan. Would that make any Vulcan Starfleet member weaker than some average Vulcan who's lived their entire life on Vulcan? Including people with no training or fight experience? Including very, very oldpeople?

[And what does "3 times stronger than humans" means anyway? There isn't any specific number you can place on "human strength," it's a range of values over a range of categories. I mean, there are lots of people who are three times stronger than me--they're not Vulcans. There are also a great deal of humans that I am three times stronger than--that is, small children and malnourished women.

I guess it's a rough estimate, and it means "on average, Vulcans are 3 times stronger than Humans". Or, a Vulcan would be stronger than a Human of the same sex and roughly same age, size, fitness and muscular development. OTOH, perhaps exceptionally strong Humans are still stronger than some weak Vulcans, while on the other hand, very strong Vulcans might be, say, 6 times stronger than very weak Humans.

 

[Longinus]

The gravity thing doesn't make much sense to me, unless it's supposed to be an evolutionary trait developed long time ago (which would, again, be before the Romulan split). I find it hard to believe that Vulcans would change their physical strength based on how much time they spend on Vulcan. Would that make any Vulcan Starfleet member weaker than some average Vulcan who's lived their entire life on Vulcan? Including people with no training or fight experience? Including very, very oldpeople?

Spending long periods in lower gravity might cause muscles atrophy a bit, unless the person trains more rigorously in lower gravity than he or she did in the higher gravity. This happens to astronauts in real life. However, most of the muscle development happens while growing up. I am certain that a human that would have born and grown to adulthood on Moon would be much weaker than one who had lived on Earth.

 

[Myasishchev]

Since Romulans are supposedly genetically practically indistinguishable from Vulcans, it follows that they have to be physically strong as Vulcans.

But then, it also follows that they're not supposed to have ridged foreheads...

Of course, how much of Vulcan strength is inherent in their biology and how much is a result of living in a high-gravity environment? If a Vulcan grew up on Earth or another world with lower gravity, would they still be as strong?

Presumably, it's inherent, as otherwise Spock--who hadn't lived on Vulcan in years--would have been weakened by living in a 1G environment. Of course, he would have had to have been, somewhat.

The gravity thing doesn't make much sense to me, unless it's supposed to be an evolutionary trait developed long time ago (which would, again, be before the Romulan split). I find it hard to believe that Vulcans would change their physical strength based on how much time they spend on Vulcan. Would that make any Vulcan Starfleet member weaker than some average Vulcan who's lived their entire life on Vulcan? Including people with no training or fight experience? Including very, very oldpeople?

Without some kind of 23d century medical intervention or a tough physical regimen, yes. Kind of like how in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, the loonies are tough, but could never go back to Earth.

Then again, we're talking about a minor difference, not a sixfold difference here. Vulcan surface gravity isn't much different from Earth's, or else every Earthling who's ever visited Vulcan is a superhuman. If it were substantially different, though, I guess it would explain why that loser Olsson in Star Trek 11 miscalculated when to open his chute.

I would suspect that if gravity control could be localized in the 23d century, Spock's quarters are probably tuned to simulate Vulcan or a bit higher gravity, to counteract the effects of dealing with us weaklings. Alternatively, maybe the whole ship is on Vulcan gravity, to build character.

We know (from DS9 and Voyager) that in the 24th century, gravity can be localized, so everybody should be pretty much fine.

But then, it also follows that they're not supposed to have ridged foreheads...

I still say those are symptoms of rickets. Although I'd also happily ignore them altogether.

That said, I'd be surprised if the Romulans didn't look for a planet that had similar gravity to Vulcan's. I mean, given the option--and in Trek there are clearly tons of options for uninhabited but decent planets, and probably more back then--would you settle for a planet with .7G? Sure, it'd be cool for a while, but you'd wind up all atrophied.

I kind of wonder why the Roms didn't settle on Earth. Lots of water, lots of food, and free slaves for everyone.