SpaceDock questions

[Mario de Monti]

If the spacedock interior were heated, at least you could switch of the internal heaters of the space vessels, but given the lack of molecules inside a vacuum I wonder how you could heat up any vacuum in general.

The same way that the sun heats us through the vacuum of space: thermal radiation

Of course you wouldn´t actually be heating up the vacuum, but any object or person inside the spacedock would be heated up.

 

[Timo]

But as said, that doesn't require walls. (And air would certainly mess up the effect.)

Heating wouldn't do starships any good, even if it didn't do much harm, either. Hull temperature for them must be a pennywise concern, unrelated to the welfare of the people and equipment inside; those things deal with much greater thermal loads already, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nebusj]

There isn't time for anything much when the ship is about to evacuate. Hence the appropriation of some random console for quick analysis, rather than the use of the station's no doubt extensive dedicated tracking or command facilities.

Seriously?

I mean, the dedicated tracking or command facilities will be a turbolift ride away. If they have to rush their response, they should just have a shorter turbolift conversation.

(I can see gathering at First Spot With Anything in the two minutes after the evacuation. But if there's been enough time for the adrenaline rush to wear off, they should be at whatever the appropriate information center available is. If there's been time for a bathroom break there's time to get to the post designed for handling emergencies.)

 

[Timo]

Well, any excuse to hide the fact that the mighty starbase only has one room...

It's consistent in any case. Our heroes can use any random console to operate their starship; they could do the same here and save themselves the trip to anywhere else.

More importantly, it is realistic for a rare once. It's not the business of our heroes to sort out this incident. They are just low-ranking castaways now; the starbase no doubt has experts who do tactical vectoring of starship resources for a living, and will at most keep our heroes informed. Sure, Riker might rush off to vent steam at the starbase Head Honcho for no good reason, but the people actually stranded there aren't the sort.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rick Sternbach]

I recall that the TNG producers simply decided that Starbase 79 is much bigger than the STIII Spacedock, over Rick Sternbach's (or was it Andrew Probert's?) objections. The doors are the same relative size to the facility, since the footage was from STIII only with the E-D in place of the classic movie ship.

Might have been Andy who called out the problems; I really wasn't involved in that discussion. From an episodic TV show production reality standpoint, I can understand the footage reuse; from a fan standpoint I can also wish they had done something different. But I can always re-jigger the concept of a larger station in my head and be okay with that.

Rick

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Sisko himself is not to be trusted much, as he also felt his runabouts were "starships"...

I think Eddie and I went over this pretty recently in a classification discussion, but Sisko never actually referred to runabouts as "starships". (For that matter, "starship" is likely a technical term of art like "ship" used to be - ie referring to certain propulsion systems or capabilities and would be a term a naval officer wouldn't use informally. Just like how subs are never referred to as "ships" but as "boats" by anyone dealing with such matters.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But we know that workbees and observation pods are "beasts of vacuum"

We don't know that at all. Especially since the "intake manifold" is an oft-mentioned piece of technobabble througout Trek history. It could be as simple as a small bleed vent for sucking in air which is then superheated and shot out through the thrusters, thus saving fuel.

Certainly it would explain why workbees are as comfortable as they are maneuvering around in a starship's cargo bay.

The bees and pods would be disadvantaged by the air resistance.

Only if you want them to go really fast, which in a place like space dock you most certainly do NOT.

An atmosphere in the enclosure allows for some convection, and the heat can be dissipated more safely in a controlled manner.

I'd rather think the radiators of the starship would be choked by the change in medium, and the ships would soon blow up.

Not at all. If anything, the radiators would become a lot more efficient with some airflow moving over them. That may or may not be the entire purpose of those so-called "emergency flush vents: if your engines are superheating to the point of burning out, dump a couple tons of coolant through the grilles to quickly dissipate some of that excess heat.

Besides, we've seen starships operate in a planetary atmosphere for prolonged periods of time with no ill effects, and in the Abramsverse the larger-than-average Enterprise can even operate under water.

Your ship is in port for repairs, that means you can get your engineering crew to go out on the hull and patch those hull breaches without having to get into space suits and perform a potentially dangerous EVA.

...After which there's gas trapped behind hull panels, and as soon as you sail through the air curtain forcefield, your ship goes BANG!

It actually takes quite a bit of work to make a surface airtight against the vacuum of space. If the outer hull plating is designed to contain an atmosphere, this will not be a problem: it can stand up to the pressure anyway. If the outer hull plating is NOT designed to contain an atmosphere, the air will simply leak out into space as soon as the ship leaves.

This, BTW, is the reason why modern-day spacecraft don't burst as soon as they leave the atmosphere. Only the pressure vessels are meant to be airtight, while the rest of the ship outside that envelop controls airflow through bleed valves that deliberately allow controlled pathways for air to flow in and out.

Maybe that's what the "impulse exhaust grille" on the neck of the Connie is really for?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't think there is an atmosphere inside. This would require a depressurization each time a ship comes or leaves and require each worker (without EVA) to be notified.

I'll again point out the idea that most starships no longer decompress their shuttlebays when their doors are open. Forcefields, man!

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I'd have to do some math, based on the assumed size of the station, but I'm wondering now (as I did then) just how large it would look from Earth. Then again..I'd have to assume how high up in orbit it is.

Whatever the figure would be, it would be a fun target for backyard telescopes!

 

[Robert Comsol]

Might have been Andy who called out the problems; I really wasn't involved in that discussion.

I visited your Star Trek art Department back in February 1988 and one of the first things Andrew confronted me with was a size comparison sketch with a stern view of the Enterprise-D in front of Earth Spacedock to illustrate that she couldn't possibly fit through these doors.

In November 1987 Andrew had sketched an outside docking proposal. Curiously, looking at it again, now, I get the impression that spacedock / starbase in his November sketch must be a lot bigger than Earth Spacedock...

I'll again point out the idea that most starships no longer decompress their shuttlebays when their doors are open. Forcefields, man!

Frankly, I’d like “my” Star Trek to remain un-affected by Star Wars tropes (and vice versa). Besides, then what’s the point of mechanical doors in the first place – to trap ships inside in case of a power less as visualized in ST IV:TVH?

Then, they could have just used forcefields all day long and just kept mechanical doors as a “blast shield” option. In case of a power loss, the ships inside would still be able to leave...

Bob

 

[F. King Daniel]

I recall that the TNG producers simply decided that Starbase 79 is much bigger than the STIII Spacedock, over Rick Sternbach's (or was it Andrew Probert's?) objections. The doors are the same relative size to the facility, since the footage was from STIII only with the E-D in place of the classic movie ship.

Might have been Andy who called out the problems; I really wasn't involved in that discussion. From an episodic TV show production reality standpoint, I can understand the footage reuse; from a fan standpoint I can also wish they had done something different. But I can always re-jigger the concept of a larger station in my head and be okay with that.

Rick

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I'll again point out the idea that most starships no longer decompress their shuttlebays when their doors are open. Forcefields, man!

Frankly, I’d like “my” Star Trek to remain un-affected by Star Wars tropes (and vice versa).

Then you probably should have stopped watching after Wrath of Khan

Besides, then what’s the point of mechanical doors in the first place

Same reason as the mechanical doors on every Enterprise after TOS: to seal off the bay so you don't have to rely on a forcefield.

to trap ships inside in case of a power less as visualized in ST IV:TVH?

I'm pretty sure those ships were trapped by virtue of their not being able to do anything (due to the lack of power), doors or no doors. That they were sealed away in spacedock probably prevented them from falling into decaying orbits and becoming large, dangerous, antimatter-fueled projectiles careening around in orbit space with no power or propulsion.

OTOH, that power loss sort of illustrates why the doors exist, eh? Since the doors were CLOSED, the loss of power means the bay doesn't suddenly decompress, and all the guys trapped on those travel pods and shutttles (with no space suits to speak of) can simply open a hatch and jump for it.

 

[Timo]

FWIW, the tug miniature features two people in heavy coveralls and flight helmets - an odd choice for clothing in a vehicle that actually lacks anything resembling an entry or an exit!

If the presence of air were to be for facilitating shirtsleeves work, it's remarkable that we never see anything of the sort. It sounds odd to invest so massively in something that never sees practical use, in the wide variety of situations we witness:

- Ships waiting to be deployed, perhaps being resupplied
- Ships with major battle scars, no doubt in need of exterior repairs
- Personnel being transferred to ships aboard small craft
- Personnel being transferred to ships via gangways
- Ships desperately trying to leave the facility in unusual conditions

Interesting points about the possibility of air-breathing (or at least air-heating or air-pumping) engines aboard the small craft! But investing in a dual propulsion system for such minimalist craft as the workbee or the travel pod would seem counterproductive, for very little return. If there's a secondary drive there, it's probably gravitic in nature, considering how commonplace gravity control seems to be in Trek; that sort of exhaustless drive might even be the primary one, if not for the fact that we see those clumsy and primitive RCS nozzles everywhere in the workbee...

Then again, exhaust probably isn't that big a problem when considering that starships are supposed to maneuver using thrusters inside Spacedock!

(Also, the seeming ability of a workbee cargo train to "hover" inside a starship cargo bay may simply be due to there being no gravity inside that bay. Not in midair at any rate; artificial gravity is shown to be deck-specific or even room-specific in TAS and ENT and DS9, and hinted at being that in TOS walla already.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

…to trap ships inside in case of a power less as visualized in ST IV:TVH?

I'm pretty sure those ships were trapped by virtue of their not being able to do anything (due to the lack of power), doors or no doors. That they were sealed away in spacedock probably prevented them from falling into decaying orbits and becoming large, dangerous, antimatter-fueled projectiles careening around in orbit space with no power or propulsion .

Well, in my treatise mentioned in an earlier post I suggested that the whole purpose of spacedock’s main section is to protect the inhabitants of nearby Earth from the radiation that could spring from an antimatter loading accident inside.

But since the starships inside are accelerated along with the spacedock on its orbital trajectory, they couldn’t just “fall out” of spacedock and the sky unless the actively used their thrusters to achieve that.

OTOH, that power loss sort of illustrates why the doors exist, eh? Since the doors were CLOSED, the loss of power means the bay doesn't suddenly decompress, and all the guys trapped on those travel pods and shutttles (with no space suits to speak of) can simply open a hatch and jump for it.

As Timo correctly pointed out the tugpods’ personnel were wearing suits already inside the cockpits.

Of course we could debate whether these are EVA suits or anti-radiation suits instead.

Once they tow a starship to a position there could be plenty of radiation built-up from the tractor beam coils.
And in case of an antimatter loading accident, they'd also have protection.

Bob

 

[Timo]

...Funny how the tug appears the closest to Matt Jeffries' old visions about TOS utility vehicles, with their 1930s-50s pulp scifi style transparent domes and rounded bodies, and represents quite a departure from Probert's 1980s "NASA realism" style spacecraft. I could accept this as being a truly futuristic vehicle in MJ style, with the transparent dome a mere forcefield that can be dropped for quick spacewalks needed to couple or uncouple the tug, or to unclog the tractor beam coils, or whatever.

Or then this isn't a tug, but rather a waste management vehicle, purging the bilge tanks of starships via that dorsal opening; scooping up exhaust gases from inside the enclosed dock via the ventral intakes; and risking getting both the hull and the operators really dirty, as seen on the miniature!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Maurice]

Of course the details of background miniatures like the tug don't make logical sense. The things are quickie kitbashes which are on the screen for a few seconds and you never get a good look at them, so why expend time and effort to figure out how people get in or out, etc. since you'll never see that?

 

[Robert Comsol]

Or then this isn't a tug, but rather a waste management vehicle, purging the bilge tanks of starships via that dorsal opening; scooping up exhaust gases from inside the enclosed dock via the ventral intakes; and risking getting both the hull and the operators really dirty, as seen on the miniature!

Sounds like a good rationalization and I'd finally have an idea for what that top-side intake "thingy" might be good for.
A futuristic garbage truck, I think that has previously been unheard of.

@ Maurice

Because it's a kind of post-post production fun making sense out of things for which the model builders possibly didn't have time or interest. It's definitely one of my favorite hobbies.

Bob

 

[Timo]

A futuristic garbage truck, I think that has previously been unheard of.

I take it you haven't seen Star Trek: Into Darkness, then. (Yes, it does have those two words included in the title, regardless of its merits.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

Hmm...I just realized that we had heard of a futuristic garbage truck before:

KORAX: Of course, I'd say that Captain Kirk deserves his ship. We like the Enterprise. We, we really do. That sagging old rust bucket is designed like a garbage scow. Half the quadrant knows it. That's why they're learning to speak Klingonese.
CHEKOV: Mister Scott!
SCOTT: Laddie, don't you think you should rephrase that?
KORAX: You're right, I should. I didn't mean to say that the Enterprise should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away as garbage.

Yes, Timo, I did see ST:ID. In case you are suggesting that the nuTrek's Enterprise
should be hauled away as garbage, please give me a couple of days to think of good reasons how to prevent that.

Bob

 

[Albertese]

I assume that tug is entered through the canopy. I can easily imagine it folding up like on a jet fighter and the two guys climbing in and out.

--Alex