Space Colonization Options (Orbiting Stations, planets/moons)

[Dryson]

Indeed. Trying to have a rational discussion with someone who doesn't have a clue how something as simple as buoyancy works is a pointless struggle. I shall just take the easy way out and not bother.

The problem is that everyone wants an environment to be just like Earth and doesn't want to actually have to think and design in order to preserve Earth based science, the Earth is the center of the Universe mentality, that would be upended by new designs that defy "Earth based physics."

Several articles that I have read have by scientists state they have no idea what would happen if a balloon full of helium was left on the Moon. All of their data is based on the experiment being conducted on Earth.

The only way to prove the balloon idea won't work is to test it out on the Moon and then in typical human ingenuity, figure out how to make the balloon work on the Moon.

Lazy and complacency in maintaining conformal science is not science.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Several articles that I have read have by scientists state they have no idea what would happen if a balloon full of helium was left on the Moon. All of their data is based on the experiment being conducted on Earth.

Links please or I'm calling bullshit. Any physicist would tell you what what happen if a balloon filled with helium were exposed to the conditions on the Moon's surface without any need to experiment. If the material of the balloon were strong enough to withstand the internal pressure, the sharpness of regolith grains, and the temperature extremes, it would remain resting on the Moon's surface. It'd be a stupidly pointless and expensive experiment anyway.

 

[Dryson]

NASA

Balloons Offer Near-Space Access for Space Biology Researchers
Balloons are often associated with meteorological studies—gauging weather conditions such as temperature, pressure and humidity in the Earth’s atmosphere. But for NASA and other scientists, they also serve as a stepping-stone for other critical space research.

More recently, biological sciences researchers have started using balloons as an experimentation platform. In the context of NASA’s planned Artemis and Mars missions, access to “near space” can advance scientists’ understanding of how biological organisms respond to extreme environments analogous to those found on the Moon and Mars. High-altitude and scientific balloons provide experimental access to various levels of rarefied air, as far up as the stratosphere (above 99% of the atmosphere). This enables researchers to gain initial data about the effects of higher levels of radiation and other factors on biological systems in a more cost-effective and timely manner than if they were to wait for an opportunity to run their experiments on the International Space Station or other orbital platforms.

...and scientific balloons provide experimental access to various levels of rarefied air, as far up as the stratosphere (above 99% of the atmosphere).

Therefore only 1% of an Earth based atmosphere is needed to create bouyancy for near space balloons. A shell around the helium balloon filled with rarified air should allow the balloon to become buoyant enough, inside of the first shell to allow small thrusters to propel the balloon into space.

The rarified air is then slowly released that would then cause the balloon to return to the Moon.

Reading from a book to always prove that you are correct is not science.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Utter garbage - in reference to the content of your post. This is what we have come to expect. At least, the theories being pedalled aren't of flat earth, hollow earth, moon landing hoax etc. variety. I suppose we should be grateful for that.

 

[Dryson]

Are you an engineer now? Have you been to Moon and tested a buoyant balloon outer shell filled with rarified air that has a central core filled with helium that heat to the same temperature on Earth that would cause the helium to expand or contract, probably not.

Just like physicists who say that everything in the Universe is the same as Einstein's theories is, not even wrong.

Rarefied air is air that does not contain much oxygen, for example in mountain areas.


The atmosphere of the Moon is a very scant presence of gases surrounding the Moon. For most practical purposes, the Moon is considered to be surrounded by vacuum.

The lifting force from a hot air balloon depends on the density difference between balloon air and surrounding air, and the balloon volume.

Therefore if the balloon shell full of rarified has enough volume and the density of rarified air allows the balloon to rise inside of the shell balloon, what hsppens?

The force of the expanding helium balloon against the rarified air then places a force against the outer shell. Another part of the idea would be to introduce ice on the surface of the shell balloon and then add heat to it to cause out gassing to take place. Out gassing, similar to Oumuamua, that would provide an upward thrust potential.

Outgassing is the release of a gas that was dissolved, trapped, frozen, or absorbed in some material. Outgassing can include sublimation and evaporation, as well as desorption, seepage from cracks or internal volumes, and gaseous products of slow chemical reactions.

Sublimation is the conversion between the solid and the gaseous phases of matter, with no intermediate liquid stage. For those of us interested in the water cycle, sublimation is most often used to describe the process of snow and ice changing into water vapor in the air without first melting into water.
Mars Sublimation
When cracks appear in weak areas, the gas rushes out at high speeds carrying black dust with it. Speeds may be up to 100 miles per hour.

Although 100 mph isn't New Horizons velocity, a rarified air balloon on the Moon that is sublimating gases that is able to travel 100 mph is far more efficient and less costly than a rocket fuel using liquid fuel.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What next?
Balloons venting gas on the Moon, In June?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Balloons (aka aerostats) require a medium (liquid or gaseous) to which their average density is comparable and this medium must be in a gravitational field. If their mass is greater than the mass of medium displaced, they sink under gravity - negative buoyancy, If it's less than the mass of medium displaced, they rise against gravity - positive buoyancy.

Archimedes' Principle: Definition, Theory, and Application (sciencefacts.net)

The Soviet space probes Vega 1 and Vega 2 released two balloons with scientific experiments in the atmosphere of Venus in 1964. Venus, of course, has a much denser atmosphere than Earth and some of the upper reaches would be at a tolerable temperature for humans provided they were protected against the toxicity of the atmosphere and had their own oxygen to breathe.

Balloon Development for Venus (nasa.gov)

Rockoons were first proposed in 1949 for use in Earth's atmosphere.
Rockoon - Wikipedia

The Soviet space probes Vega 1 and Vega 2 released two balloons with scientific experiments in the atmosphere of Venus in 1964. Venus, of course, has a much denser atmosphere than Earth and some of the upper reaches would be at a tolerable temperature for humans provided they were protected against the toxicity of the atmosphere and had their own oxygen to breathe.

Balloon Development for Venus (nasa.gov)

Balloons working in space as passive reflectors isn't a problem, You just have to get them there at sufficient speed to remain in orbit. The Echo and PAGEOS balloon satellites were launched into Earth orbit in 1960, 1964, and 1966. These required rockets to get into orbit before being inflated. Balloon satellites were used as they could act as large passive reflectors of microwave signals. Their large size means that their orbital velocity will decrease more rapidly due to air resistance than for a smaller satellite, even though they are operating in a near vacuum. Such satellites have negative buoyancy - they rely on their speed to stay in orbit.

People have proposed vacuum balloons so if you could make one with a more perfect vacuum than exists on the Moon, it would work there. It'd be more feasible than on Earth because the pressure differential would be tiny. However, it would need to be freaking enormous to offset the weight of the envelope and any payload -- it's a nonstarter. I'll let you do the mathematics to prove me wrong.

How Helium Balloons Work | HowStuffWorks

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hey could we turn Venus into a discoball by covering it in panels to absorb the heat and reflect all the light to Earth/ I kid.....

 

[Dryson]

What about boring into the surface of the Moon? Are there any experimental designs being worked on?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Lots of research has been done.

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Lunar tunnel engineers excited by boring Moon colonies (phys.org)

 

[Santaman]

Going undergroud is kinda handy on the moon, radiation, heat, cold, guess a bunker would be a great way to start.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Also on Mars, where I believe suitable lava tube caverns have also been spotted.

 

[valkyrie013]

Isn't there lava tubes on the moon?
.. Can't we use them as well?

EDIT:
Yes there are lunar tubes, at least a good chance, needs exploring. And can be 500 meters wide before gravity effects it!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Needs a giant drilling rig with caterpillar tracks on it and Doug McClure ...... I think I saw a movie like that

Just needs a way to get it to the Moon

 

[Santaman]

That would be a challenge.. they're around 4500-7000 tons for current sized tunnel boring machines... ye gads.. imagine that in orbit.. would be glorious.

 

[BK613]

That would be a challenge.. they're around 4500-7000 tons for current sized tunnel boring machines... ye gads.. imagine that in orbit.. would be glorious.

And this was the one of the initial reasons that Musk started a Boring Company.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

That would be a challenge.. they're around 4500-7000 tons for current sized tunnel boring machines... ye gads.. imagine that in orbit.. would be glorious.

See "At The Earth's Core" was educational.. At leas we know how much that machine in the movie would weigh. It also starred Peter Cushing

 

[Dryson]

Isn't there lava tubes on the moon?
.. Can't we use them as well?

EDIT:
Yes there are lunar tubes, at least a good chance, needs exploring. And can be 500 meters wide before gravity effects it!

Lunar lava tubes may potentially serve as enclosures for human habitats.[5][8][20] Tunnels larger than 300 metres (980 ft) in diameter may exist, lying under 40 metres (130 ft) or more of basalt, with a stable temperature of −20 °C (−4 °F).[

A stable temperature is one of the most important aspects of a lava tube. Having a stable temperature means that habitat modules can be built to withstand the stable temperatures instead of having to be designed to withstand fluctuating temperatures.

Fluctuating temperatures, going from -4 to 20 degrees every few weeks for example, would cause mechanical stress fracturing of the metals the hand are constructed from due to moisture freezing and thawing inside of the metal atomic structure of the metal itself.

Mechanical Stress Fracturing would create cost inhibitive habs that would need to be replaced every so many months to keep from cracking open and causing the habs to implode due to the sudden vacuum of space breaching the cracks the atomic structure of the metal hulls.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

It's obvious some of the text above was cut and pasted directly from Wikipedia. Perhaps you could use the QUOTE tags and provide a link for attribution?

By the way, the habitats could be Bigelow inflatable modules or similar. Placing them in (hopefully) dormant lava tubes would indeed protect against temperature fluctuations and cosmic radiation. Alternatively, place the habs in a depression and shovel regolith over them. If water deposits are found at the lunar poles or elsewhere on the Moon, it might be possible to create lunar concrete or lunarcrete for construction. Perhaps not the best use for water if it is a scarce resource though.

The basic ingredients for lunarcrete would be the same as those for terrestrial concrete: aggregate, water, and cement. In the case of lunarcrete, the aggregate would be lunar regolith. The cement would be manufactured by beneficiating lunar rock that had a high calcium content. Water would either be supplied from off the Moon, or by combining oxygen with hydrogen produced from lunar soil.

Lunarcrete - Wikipedia

 

[Dryson]

https://archive.org/details/HeikeKamerlinghOnnesWaltherMeissnerSuperconductor

Then post the pages and the book or books that you get information from.

Superconducting Magnets could become a new form of propulsion when leaving the Moon. The next problem to overcome with the SCM is, how do we get atoms to lock into place around a cargo container at rest on the SCM pad that is waiting to be sent into space from the surface of the Moon?