Space Battles

[Kpnuts]

For the most part, the space battles on this show have been awesome. However, I finally watched "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2" today, and I had issue with the space battle. Why did Enterprise and Discovery launch shuttles and pods? Why did Control launch drone fighters? Wouldn't it make more sense for the larger ships to duke it out like you see in most science-fiction?

Did we see shuttles and pods participate in battles and I just forgot?

Because it was "kewl" and typical of the juvenile story-telling on the show. Not to mention they're ignorance that filling the screen with as much stuff as possibly instantly makes it cool and memorable, when in reality, the opposite is true. See: Discovery premiere space jump, the ridiculous season 2 pod flights through the debris field, the season 2 finale space battle, the Picard finale space battle etc etc etc

And I can't agree that the space battles on the show have been awesome, I'm struggling to think of many tbh. It's all just quick cut, fast paced ultra contrasty rubbish as far I've seen.

 

[Timo]

Well, what we saw is memorable by definition, even if not in a good way... It's not as if, say, you could ever forget it, apparently.

The thing about memorable is that until now, Star Trek has been unable to afford Star Wars effects, what with being mere television shows (sometimes on the big screen) as opposed to movies. Filling the screen with stuff is the ultimate aim, and an issue of economy first and foremost. Yet now that Star Trek can finally afford to go Star Wars, everybody else can, too.

And many have preceded Trek by far. Babylon 5 got there first, demonstrating that there need not be any correlation between affordability of screen-filling effects and affordability of top-notch cast or writing...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dupersuper]

That's a pretty good question, actually. The events of S2 DSC would seem to make the push in TOS's The Ultimate Computer for M5 units to control starships to be...…questionable at best.

I'm sure the whole Control thing was conveniently classified, just like the spore drive and mirror universe and everything else from Discovery that would break continuity if any one knew about it afterwards.

But, the M5 was based upon Daystrom's engrams, so they might have thought that human component would be different.

Except Daystrom didn't tell people he did that...

 

[fireproof78]

Except Daystrom didn't tell people he did that...

True enough but Daystrom's record spoke for itself on the matter. Though, he had not told Kirk but that doesn't mean Starfleet wasn't aware.

'm sure the whole Control thing was conveniently classified, just like the spore drive and mirror universe and everything else from Discovery that would break continuity if any one knew about it afterwards.

Star Trek's warehouse is full of such things being overseen by top men.

 

[BillJ]

I'm sure the whole Control thing was conveniently classified, just like the spore drive and mirror universe and everything else from Discovery that would break continuity if any one knew about it afterwards.

That still came off as dumb as fuck. Create a problem, then use the most unimaginative way possible to write it off.

I hope Paradise has a bigger imagination than those who came before her.

 

[Kpnuts]

Well, what we saw is memorable by definition, even if not in a good way... It's not as if, say, you could ever forget it, apparently.

The thing about memorable is that until now, Star Trek has been unable to afford Star Wars effects, what with being mere television shows (sometimes on the big screen) as opposed to movies. Filling the screen with stuff is the ultimate aim, and an issue of economy first and foremost. Yet now that Star Trek can finally afford to go Star Wars, everybody else can, too.

And many have preceded Trek by far. Babylon 5 got there first, demonstrating that there need not be any correlation between affordability of screen-filling effects and affordability of top-notch cast or writing...

Timo Saloniemi

Filling the screen with ships can work if there's a coherent and story-based reason. See the galaxy rising up against oppression in TRoS (and even then, the scale wasn't really the focus of the action/visuals, it was merely a plot point). Hundreds of drones, pods and shuttlecraft being a) a thing and b) remote piloted and forming a protective cocoon around a flying time-travelling spacesuit that Section 31 conveniently built themselves, not so much.

 

[BillJ]

Filling the screen with ships can work if there's a coherent and story-based reason. See the galaxy rising up against oppression in TRoS (and even then, the scale wasn't really the focus of the action/visuals, it was merely a plot point). Hundreds of drones, pods and shuttlecraft being a) a thing and b) remote piloted and forming a protective cocoon around a flying time-travelling spacesuit that Section 31 conveniently built themselves, not so much.

I was really let down by the Red Angel arc overall. It had a promising start, then fell off a cliff.

 

[Kpnuts]

I was really let down by the Red Angel arc overall. It had a promising start, then fell off a cliff.

Extremely promising start! I thought it was a really brilliant idea.

Then they made Michael be the angel (obviously)

and made it a time travelling technological thing

that Section 31 built

and can just build again at a moment's notice.

A promising start before falling off a cliff has happened three times now in all three CBS Trek seasons to date. imo.

 

[fireproof78]

That still came off as dumb as fuck. Create a problem, then use the most unimaginative way possible to write it off.

I hope Paradise has a bigger imagination than those who came before her.

Paradise remaining throughout the season is a good start.

Red Angel could have been better but it was OK. Not the best answer but it was OK.

 

[BillJ]

Not the best answer but it was OK.

It left me feeling like a Picard facepalm.

 

[fireproof78]

It left me feeling like a Picard facepalm.

I mean, I at least was glad to have an answer rather than just "shrug: shit happened."

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Because it was "kewl" and typical of the juvenile story-telling on the show. Not to mention they're ignorance that filling the screen with as much stuff as possibly instantly makes it cool and memorable, when in reality, the opposite is true. See: Discovery premiere space jump, the ridiculous season 2 pod flights through the debris field, the season 2 finale space battle, the Picard finale space battle etc etc etc

Plenty of shows have done big Space Battles well with LOTS of stuff on screen.

Babylon 5
DS9
Reboot BSG
Gundam
Macross
etc.

The issue here is the way that DISCO & ST:PIC does it in a hamfisted way without much care or thought.

It's literally big space battles done by amatuers who know nothing about what makes a good Big Sci-Fi battle.

Typical Hollywood syndrome.

Filling the screen with ships can work if there's a coherent and story-based reason. See the galaxy rising up against oppression in TRoS (and even then, the scale wasn't really the focus of the action/visuals, it was merely a plot point). Hundreds of drones, pods and shuttlecraft being a) a thing and b) remote piloted and forming a protective cocoon around a flying time-travelling spacesuit that Section 31 conveniently built themselves, not so much.

I concur, you can do big battles well, you just need the right reasoning, setup, and payoff.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

SFB? In story, extra targets makes sense, I guess? I'm used to thinking of shuttlecraft as being mostly defenseless, shields and maybe phasers. The only heavily armed shuttles I remember are the Runabouts, the Delta Flyer, and the Enterprise-E shuttles. I guess I just prefer seeing the capital ships duke it out with a greater emphasis on drama over kewl CGI.

In DS9 Miranda class ships were more vulnerable than runabouts

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Kirk v khan in the nebula is still Treks greatest space battle

 

[fireproof78]

Sure and never should it be duplicated. New production teams should feel free to do new things.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk v khan in the nebula is still Treks greatest space battle

It is very good. Though I would also put up the original versions of "Balance of Terror" and "The Ultimate Computer" in that category.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

Kirk v khan in the nebula is still Treks greatest space battle

I still remember seeing it on the big screen... just amazing.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Sure and never should it be duplicated. New production teams should feel free to do new things.

No but should maybe learn a thing or two from its simplicity. Like how a few X and Y wings in a trench was better than a million ship in a Michael Bay style CGI fest

 

[BillJ]

No but should maybe learn a thing or two from its simplicity.

Simplicity is bliss for a lot of things. Some modern arc-based shows seem to overthink things then get tangled and trip on their own feet.

 

[Kpnuts]

Yes, less is more. Compelling, deliberate movements, not badly framed shakey cam with a million things on screen and lots of pew pew.

Sure and never should it be duplicated. New production teams should feel free to do new things.

No but they should try and replicate the quality. We've seen nothing anywhere near that good in a long while.