South Bashing--Hypocritical?

[RoJoHen]

Southerners drink Sweet Tea, and I think Sweet Tea is gross.

Beyond that, all I know is hearsay and stereotypes. The only time I was ever really in the south was when I took a trip to New Orleans (pre-Katrina), and it was the most fun I've ever had.

The stereotypes might be true, but I can find plenty of racist hicks here in northern Illinois easily enough as well.

 

[Thrall]

Try asking a Native American how they like the U.S. flag.

That was unavoidable. It's what happens when you have two cultures that refuse to live together. There had to be a winner, and it usually goes to the one with the best technology.

Its all a matter of perspective, isn't it? To the Brits the Stars and Stripes are a symbol of treason, and to many natives it is no doubt a symbol of brutal oppression as well (as Unicron pointed out).

So, do you consider the Nazi swastika to be a symbol of German Patriotism?

And actually most of the public opinion of that time in Britain favored the Colonists.

I admit, I'm biased against Southerners because every one I've met was a fucking retard. There was this guy at work. He was this complete idiot wigger. I asked where he was from, "I'm from Alabama!" And my first thought was "SHIT!". Then he asked me, "Do ya'll like Slipknot?"
"Well...not anymore." So I asked him about his wife.
"So what's your wife do?"
"Oh she's in school."
"So which college does she go to?"
"Oh no, she's in High School".
"Okay....so is it normal for ministers to marry high school students in Alabama?"
"Oh we haven't done that yet."
"So you haven't gone through with the ceremony. So, technically you're not really married."
"Yeah, but she's ma SOUL MATE. So in our hearts we're married."
"Okay. So how'd you met?"
"On the Internet. I was cybering with her mama and then moved in with them after her mama said we would be a good couple."
"Oh. My. Fucking. God."

Eventually he got fired for doing no work as he did nothing but text people all day. I'm not saying all Southerners are like that. But most of those that I've met are.

 

[Jim Steele]

To the Brits the Stars and Stripes are a symbol of treason

Which Brits? Long dead ones?

 

[Captain X]

Try asking a Native American how they like the U.S. flag.

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I'm proud of the good things it stands for, but on the other, I'm ashamed of the dark history it represents, which so many seem like they want to ignore or forget. It's like people want to pretend the violent colonization of North America didn't take place, like the Natives were more than happy to adopt white culture and move onto reservations.

Oh, and something else, pointing out that people are racist or bigoted does not in turn make one racist or bigoted - that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Jim Steele]

It's like people want to pretend the violent colonization of North America didn't take place

Most Americans I know do acknowledge that it did. Although a lot of them insist that it was a European atrocity, and not a legacy for the US to be concerned about.

 

[trekkerguy]

Glad to know we're hated so much.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Exactly. If you go by certain posters standards then in what way is the
US as a whole exempt from being as contemptible as the "South" is?

Probably because there are few people in America that are proud of their great moral blunders, while in the south they venerate the an abominable one. That the civil war wasn't about slavery is a lie that's been repeated so many times those who say so now have been indoctrinated into actually believing it.

I am not proud of any moral blunders of the South.

I'm proud of the other traditions I was raised around and took part in,
the diversity I saw there. It wasn't until I moved outside the South that
I ran into extremely racist communities.

I dunno, I enjoyed the food, the hospitality and general neighborliness(no idea
if that's a word ), the music and sports and just the culture of our
communities down there. It's the good things. The problem is there are bad
things, but I've lived in places all over the country and seen just as many
bad things in them as in the South.

People in the South are just generaly more open and brutaly honest about
who they are and what they think. So the racist bastard and close minded
pigs are just more out in the open than they are in other places in the country.

But I doubt there's anymore there than any other place in the country.
People just see them more. I've yet to find as many good hearted kind people
anywhere else, I don't doubt they're around, just not as outspoken as they
are downsouth and I miss that.

People everywhere need to get over themselves and their prejudices.
A prejudice against the South or the people in it is no better than a prejudice
against a black person or a Mexican. Judging a culture for it's past or for
the stand out bad examples simply isn't fair and is just as pig headed as that
redneck that appalls you. Just remember, somebody loves him dearly for who
he is, and that to me is the ultimate show of love.

BINGO! Thank you for your eloquent post!

Though I would add, I have seen some VERY naked prejudice and racism in other parts of the country besides the South--it's everywhere; the only difference between other regions and the South is that because we're under a microscope, people from our part of the country are much more likely to get called on it.

Try asking a Native American how they like the U.S. flag.

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I'm proud of the good things it stands for, but on the other, I'm ashamed of the dark history it represents, which so many seem like they want to ignore or forget. It's like people want to pretend the violent colonization of North America didn't take place, like the Natives were more than happy to adopt white culture and move onto reservations.

Oh, and something else, pointing out that people are racist or bigoted does not in turn make one racist or bigoted - that doesn't make any sense.

As I have said, there have been problems in the South, and certain Southerners who cannot seem to behave decently. The problem is when I see the same pattern of sweeping generalizations used against the South that if it were aimed at any foreign nation, or aimed at a particular race of people, would be considered highly offensive. Take this for example: let them breed themselves out? Hmm...eugenics, anybody? Calling out individuals is fine if their behavior merits it. Calling out an entire region of the country as if everybody else's record is spotless--that is not.

And frankly, I DO think others should attend to the injustices in their own backyards before acting as though they can look down on others from the moral high ground. It is the same for me as someone who lives in the South: I am not going to run from the problems that we do have. I am not going to heap contempt upon the place where I live just to make myself look good to a certain crowd. That accomplishes nothing. I would rather stay here for those things that are good AND to help where there are problems to fix them.

 

[JuanBolio]

Which Brits? Long dead ones?

Exactly. Why should the Confederate flag be any more offensive?

So, do you consider the Nazi swastika to be a symbol of German Patriotism?

I'm not a German. I know that damn few Germans do. The hate against the Confederate flag is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat. Flying the stars and bars doesn't make you a redneck, it doesn't make you a hick, it doesn't make you a racist. It just means there's at least something about the southern/rebel spirit that you appreciate. Are many who fly it ignorant, racist hicks? Of course. Does it go hand-in-hand with the flag? Of course not. Also, comparing the evils of the Confederacy to the evils of Nazi Germany is like comparing the Geico Gecko to Godzilla.

 

[T'Bonz]

I'm a Northerner who has lived in the South for 27 years. However, many Southerners don't consider S. Florida as "South" and indeed, for all but the last 2 or 3 years, it was more "New York South." Now it's "Jamaica/Haiti North."

When I go to the real South (north of Lake Okeechobee,) I've never found any problems with Southerners. People tend to react to how you treat them. I treat people the same everywhere and try to adapt a bit to their culture, so I rarely have a problem. I plan on retiring to the "real" South, somewhere in the Carolinas. I expect no problems.

Racism is all over this U.S. In my hometown, Pittsburgh, some whites and blacks were racist (and yes, a minority group can be racist. I've been on the receiving end of it.) In North Dakota, it was the whites vs. the Native Americans. Out west, in San Diego, the whites and Mexicans disagreed, when I had family in the Bay area, the whining was about the Vietnamese.

Point is, wherever one goes, there are groups that have issues with one another. Bigotry/racism isn't confined to one geographical region.

My only gripe with the True South is the seeming obsession over the Civil War. People, it was almost 150 years ago. Get OVER it. You almost never see a Northerner who even knows much about the Civil War, unless they're history geeks like I am. But Southerners are still pissed about it. And be honest. It wasn't about states rights, it was about slavery. Not like the North had clean hands, they were involved in the slave trade, importing them for sale in the South. They just stopped owning them sooner than the South did. But the North doesn't seem to be obsessed over the Civil War events like the South is.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

None of the people I know down here are pissed about the Civil War. I understand why it was fought and I am pleased that it brought an end to slavery.

States' rights, as I've said in another post, was a component of the war. Until the Civil War, the concept of the Union above the states was not as firmly etched into people's minds as it is now. Look at the difference between the way slavery was handled in the 1960s and segregation in the 1960s. The second time around, no one in their right mind would've considered secession the solution...the problem had to be solved as one nation. So yes, slavery touched off the war. But the conception of state vs. federal government in people's minds at the time was why secession actually seemed like a viable solution even though now we'd say that idea was nuts. I think we have to understand all of the causes and learn from them. One is that massive moral outrages must not be tolerated. Another is the cost of putting regional pride above national unity. I think those are both valid lessons to take away.

 

[Augustus]

I am from Texas, which is not really the deep south, but nevertheless very southern in many of its attitudes.

I get the vibe that some people look down on people from the south and when you say you are from Texas when you are in another country, who are often met with derision. But I just don't get offended anymore. I love it and that is good enough for me.

 

[teya]

Yet there is more than ample evidence that race relations are unhealthy in many of the places I've lived. There have been riots in California on numerous occasions. Clearly it's not the non-issue there people want to think it is. And I have never seen more FLAGRANT racism anywhere in the nation than like what I saw in the Northeast. My God, the kinds of comments people thought were OK--ewwwww. And that's the only place I've ever lived where some black family friends said they felt uncomfortable going into certain restaurants. If you want to see evidence of the dysfunction up north, research the term de facto segregation. When I moved to that part of the country for the first time, I IMMEDIATELY--even at 9 years old--got a sense that something was desperately wrong, for there to be such a lack of diversity in the community and schools.

Nice job. You've just done to other regions what you decry in this thread.

That's called "hypocrisy."

But, please, don't stop there. Remember, there are hundreds of other regional stereotypes you could employ.

 

[Unicron]

I have no problem with the South or Southerners in general, and I think the people and the region have a lot of great things to offer. What I do have a problem with is the sense of denial about the motives for the Civil War and the glorification of an oppressive regime by some in the South. You can honor your ancestors who served in the war without glorifying the regime they served under. I have the same problem with certain Japanese people who maintain a sense of denial about their country's actions in WWII (especially in China) and I have the same problem with those who continue to justify the rationale for war in Iraq after it's been proven false.

Healing can only begin when the involved parties acknowledge the mistakes of the past and move to change them. The United States has made A LOT of mistakes in the past, but for the most part I think we've been pretty good about acknowledging them and trying to change our actions in the future accordingly. Germany made some terrible mistakes in the past, but as a people they made a concerted effort to confront and learn from those mistakes.

Bingo. That's exactly how I feel. Politically speaking, there's no doubt in my mind that the South went to war for some of the worst possible reasons. But when I look at Lee and some of the other generals, I understand that slavery and sectionalism were not their primary motivations. Lee had a choice between serving the central government, or serving his home state. He decided not to fight his home state, as many other officers on both sides did. As a general, he conducted himself in generally among the best fashion he could have. And when the war ended and he surrendered, he made the effort to encourage others to engage in reconciliation. THAT is why I have respect for General Lee, even though I understand that the political causes he served were not good.

likeI have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I'm proud of the good things it stands for, but on the other, I'm ashamed of the dark history it represents, which so many seem like they want to ignore or forget. It's like people want to pretend the violent colonization of North America didn't take place, like the Natives were more than happy to adopt white culture and move onto reservations.

Me too. Certainly the Native American nations took part in many of the same petty tribal differences as their European counterparts did, but that doesn't change the fact that the American government did not act particularly honorable to them. As I said before, I try to take the bad with the good. I want to focus more on that, while not seeming to deny the mistakes that have been made.

That was unavoidable. It's what happens when you have two cultures that refuse to live together. There had to be a winner, and it usually goes to the one with the best technology.

That the two groups would come into conflict certainly was unavoidable, but not how those conflicts essentially ended. The U.S. government kept promising it wouldn't seek any more land, that what was left to the tribes was theirs forever in return for what it got. But five or ten years down the line, when more land was needed or somebody found gold in a territory, the tribes basically got screwed. They were pushed to either fight or surrender, and they lost either way.

So, do you consider the Nazi swastika to be a symbol of German Patriotism?

I wouldn't, but I would point out that the swastika has generally been a symbol of good for thousands of years. Hitler only corrupted it into a symbol of evil for a few decades, yet nowadays that's all that seems to be remembered. I think there are few well-known symbols that don't have a darker side to them, as well as a lighter side.

 

[trekkerguy]

Yet there is more than ample evidence that race relations are unhealthy in many of the places I've lived. There have been riots in California on numerous occasions. Clearly it's not the non-issue there people want to think it is. And I have never seen more FLAGRANT racism anywhere in the nation than like what I saw in the Northeast. My God, the kinds of comments people thought were OK--ewwwww. And that's the only place I've ever lived where some black family friends said they felt uncomfortable going into certain restaurants. If you want to see evidence of the dysfunction up north, research the term de facto segregation. When I moved to that part of the country for the first time, I IMMEDIATELY--even at 9 years old--got a sense that something was desperately wrong, for there to be such a lack of diversity in the community and schools.

Nice job. You've just done to other regions what you decry in this thread.

That's called "hypocrisy."

But, please, don't stop there. Remember, there are hundreds of other regional stereotypes you could employ.

He's not, he's stating experiences to point out simply that it's everywhere.

It's just made into a bigger deal when from the South because it's easy due
to cliche's everyone has participated in creating.

It's not a generalization to quote an actual experience.

It is when you proclaim a region and it's people are this or that.
If you've had an experience in a certain region with the people there that's
fine, but don't judge everyone from there, it's simply not fair.

 

[Captain Craig]

You know I am born and raised right here in Nashville, TN.
I'm minutes from several key Civil War battle fields. From time to time I see an ad for a reenactment but have never been. I have no desire and outside of a middle school field trip to one I haven't been to a battle field since. Outside of seeing Nathan Beford Forrest on the side of I-65 from time to time I don't interact with anyone at work(850+) at church(1500+) or in my free time personally with anyone who disucsses or gives a rats ass about the Civil War. Just in case you gloss over the mention it should be pointed out that the NBF statue was errected by a private citizen on private property. It is not sponsored, maintained or protected by the county or state.

I have visited large parts of our country on many vacations in the past 15 years. I've driven through areas of St.Paul, MN, Chicago, IL and San Diego, CA and seen housing and neighborhood setups that would rival any poverty area and trailer park I've seen across my own state.

On this very board when it comes down to a discussion on a topic and you don't agree then you get a "dumb southerner" remark. Yes, I've even gotten them from Thrall. I think he needs to expand his exposure cause if his few examples are all of similarity to Mr.Alabama then no wonder he is confused.

Good thread by the OP.

 

[Augustus]

I think Unicron has a good point about people like General Lee.

there were alot of people back then who hated the other side and would never reconcile, evidenced by the reconstruction. But some people, like Lee and Longstreet and Lincoln, realized that we needed to come together.
Ironically, they traded bullets and came together while we trade words and still won't always come together on levels of respect and decency on many issues.

 

[Thrall]

That the two groups would come into conflict certainly was unavoidable, but not how those conflicts essentially ended. The U.S. government kept promising it wouldn't seek any more land, that what was left to the tribes was theirs forever in return for what it got. But five or ten years down the line, when more land was needed or somebody found gold in a territory, the tribes basically got screwed. They were pushed to either fight or surrender, and they lost either way.

I'm not denying any of that. It was not the first nor the last time the US Government screwed over people for their own interests. That's the thing about governments. They do what they believe is in the interests of their people, for good or bad. In this case bad. And they don't much take into consideration their enemies feelings. People nowadays reject the concept of "Might makes Right." or Social Darwinism. They didn't in those days.

The hate against the Confederate flag is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat.

If you were black you wouldn't think so. It was used as a symbol to glorify men who fought and died for the right to to treat you as sub-human. It was used as a symbol of the right to rape you and sell off your children borne from that rape whenever they wanted to. It was used as a symbol of the right to torture and kill you without punishment. It was used as a symbol by men who wanted to deny you your basic constitutional rights. It was used by the first terrorist group to glorify the murder of your children and the fire-bombing of your home. And they felt these rights were so important, they were willing to turn their backs on and murder their own countrymen in order to secure these rights.

All of these men waved this flag proudly and loudly.
The hate against a symbol like that is more then legitimate.

Flying the stars and bars doesn't make you a redneck, it doesn't make you a hick, it doesn't make you a racist.

You're right. It makes you traitor.

It just means there's at least something about the southern/rebel spirit that you appreciate.

Like treason.

Are many who fly it ignorant, racist hicks?

Try MOST.

Also, comparing the evils of the Confederacy to the evils of Nazi Germany is like comparing the Geico Gecko to Godzilla.

Not really. They both stated horrific, brutal wars for fucked up ideological reasons. They both believed the other side had dishonored them and screwed them over for years prior to the war(in the case of Germany they were right). They both set up concentration camps with the intent of mass murder. The subjugation of a minority group, they either blamed or came to blame for their ills, was pivotal to their ideology. And the both treated these minority groups as disposable and sub-human.

So fuck The Confederacy. And fuck The Star and Bars.

 

[JuanBolio]

You're right. It makes you traitor.

Sometimes that's a good thing. While slavery was a big part of the Confederate rebellion, it was not the end-all, be-all.

Like treason.

Rebellion can be great sometimes. While I don't agree with the south's reasons for rebelling, sometimes it is legitimate. If you were descended from a group of people who had fought and lost a rebellion, you might feel differently.

Also, comparing the evils of the Confederacy to the evils of Nazi Germany is like comparing the Geico Gecko to Godzilla.

Not really. They both stated horrific, brutal wars for fucked up ideological reasons. They both believed the other side had dishonored them and screwed them over for years prior to the war(in the case of Germany they were right). They both set up concentration camps with the intent of mass murder. The subjugation of a minority group, they either blamed or came to blame for their ills, was pivotal to their ideology. And the both treated these minority groups as disposable and sub-human.

Only on a much smaller scale. Godzilla > gecko.

 

[Augustus]

well, no fan of the confederacy here, but what camps did they set up for the intent of mass murder????????

They almost never treated slaves nicely, and were sub-human as you say (hence them being slaves), but since they had to buy them they were not likely to just start killing them off either.

For the record, the South also for the most part fought a defensive war, because the north was the one that had to invade, but of course the south did start the whole thing. and while both the south and Nazi Germany were not fighting for the right, I would hardly compare the two.

A long time ago, the Confederate flag was a symbol of the south, not of racism. After the war, racist groups like the KKK adopted the flag as a symbol for their cause.

Now in days, I'd like to think the meaning of the symbol has changed. Very few still fly it with racist intentions.

Like the swastika of the Nazi's, that symbol was not invented to mean evil or bad things, but it has just been adopted by some who had those intentions.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Like the swastika of the Nazi's, that symbol was not invented to mean evil or bad things, but it has just been adopted by some who had those intentions.

And there's no going back, is there? You can't un-adopt symbols like that. I doubt you'd see anyone flying the swastika today who isn't a Nazi.