Soong type Androids technology

[Twilight Phoenix]

So it's pretty clearly indicated during Data's Day that he is notating his letter to Maddox while sitting at his station, especially the scene where he talks about everyone being nervous about going into the Neutral Zone. It's certain he keeps his logs that way (Have we ever even heard personal logs of his? I suddenly can't remember) I imagine he does process thoughts that way too. He certainly doesn't say everything he thinks, which would suggest he must have some kind of inner dialog.

I tend to think that in Data's Day, he's more like writing his report to Maddox and we're shown the events he's talking about, so I'm not really sure it can serve as a proof that he has a inner voice the way humans do. There is little information about what exactly is going on in Data's mind, we can just make educated guesses by observing his behaviours (like that finger tapping and puzzlement you mentioned), a bit like an ethologist trying to understand a brand new sentient species.

I personally tend to think he has different layers of thoughts, depending on the complexity of the algorithms running.
Low level functions like hardware management or processors' outputs are probably in the back of his mind like DOS is in Windows, but he rarely needs to aknowledge them specifially except in the case of some error occuring.
More complex, yet still background, tasks like treatment of sensory inputs, motor coordination, files indexation...may be something he would check more often but I don't think it would be fuel for a mental dialogue.
Higher cognitive process like social interactions, objects recognition, rational thinking, and so on, may probably trigger some form of inner thought. Maybe not exactly in the way we intend it, he may have fast thoughts merged with a large array of variables displayed like some music sheets being read at ultra high speed.


(It feels good to be back on that topic BTW)

 

[Mojochi]

It just seems to me that when he is shown in the pantomime of reflection, we're meant to assume an inner thought process going on. It stands to reason Soong would want his social behavior to be similar to ours. So I agree he must have a section of his computing that is programmed for facial response, when it's related to interpreting reality, live. "What's going on around you right now" is one of the chief computational elements he would be occupied with in his behavior

Even though his narrative in Data's Day is clearly recalled from the moments that we're shown, it does also look from some of those behaviors, actions, pantomimes, etc... That he is internally engaged, in that moment, with the thought being expressed in the correspondence.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Even though his narrative in Data's Day is clearly recalled from the moments that we're shown, it does also look from some of those behaviors, actions, pantomimes, etc... That he is internally engaged, in that moment, with the thought being expressed in the correspondence.

Oh he definitely is internally engaged in what's going on in his surroundings, no doubt on that ! It wouldn't make sense for Noonien to have developed a human-shaped, independant, sentient AI being who can only respond to one stimulus at a time without using live, real time environment analysis.

 

[Timo]

...Indeed, the part that stretches credulity would be Data having to resort to something as inefficient as human stream-of-consciousness. His exceptional clarity of thought has been explicated for us in those scenes where he openly states he is multitasking internally, such as "In Theory", but also when he's multitasking semi-externally, such as when listening to overlapping music in "A Matter of Time".

But a portion of Data's clarity of thought is obviously dedicated to him maintaining the human facade. And it doesn't sound as if it would be an acquired skill; unless Soong programmed "mirror cells" into his creations from the get-go, the colonists would have had their pitchforks and torches out and never would have trusted Data with their memories, say.

Can Data turn off his "mirror cells"? His poker face is the ultimate in that field, but this only need mean he is good at fighting his built-in reflexes.

But I trust he can build extra layers of human behavior on top of his reflexes, truly becoming the loving/abusive husband as needed in "In Theory", rather than just playacting like a human in a similar situation would. (And then he'd have a portion of his mind dedicated to calmly examining this true performance from the inside, which would be different from human playacting even if sounding a bit similar.) Yet this raises the obvious question of how much conscious control Data exhibits in any given scene where we see puzzlement, regret, anger or desire. He needn't be "faking" those, but should we be uneasy with him being in exceptional control over those?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

the colonists would have had their pitchforks and torches out and never would have trusted Data with their memories, say.

Do we actually know if the colonists were aware that Data had their memories? Surely they'd have known that Soong was scanning them for his research, but does it follow that they'd have expected his creations had detailed knowledge of their memories, lives, etc...? I'd be surprised that all of them went along with it, had they figured on that

As to his conscious control of facial reactions, he probably has some, maybe even more than us, but I definitely see moments where his reactions aren't just mimickery for the sake of others to see. He's doing it alone.

The thing I find interesting about Jenna leaving Data, was how she didn't realize something pretty important. It reminds me of a line from The Watchmen. "If he's pretending, it means he cares". That Data is willing to render the appearance of what he expects is paramount to a relationship (Even as fake as some of it comes off) He's doing that as a choice which shows he wants this person's needs to be cared for. That is a genuine affection from him, at least as much as he's maybe capable

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

The thing I find interesting about Jenna leaving Data, was how she didn't realize something pretty important. It reminds me of a line from The Watchmen. "If he's pretending, it means he cares". That Data is willing to render the appearance of what he expects is paramount to a relationship (Even as fake as some of it comes off) He's doing that as a choice which shows he wants this person's needs to be cared for. That is a genuine affection from him, at least as much as he's maybe capable

YES.
That's my exact thought about the whole episode. He searched for models to emulate, coded a subroutine for the relationship, tried his best to learn from what she told him when she arrived with a present, tried his best to be a good partner and fill her emotional needs (the singing, the drink, the compliments)...Even the "lovers quarrel" was an attempt to fix a tense situation. If you pay attention to Data's behaviours and facial expressions in that scene, as Jenna grows angrier and angrier, you can litterally see him browse through available behavioural responses to find an appropriate one (kudos to Spiner for the perfect acting).
He's learning by trial and error in such complex situations, but Jenna didn't understand that. She basically never understood him at. She kept considering him to be identical to a human being instead of taking his nature into account. It's pretty stupid to ask someone so literal to understand your double meanings ("yeah keep painting, but actually, no, stop painting and focus on me"), or to want him to experience life the same exact way as humans ("what were you thinking as you kissed me ? You'd better say something that sounds normal for humans, unless it's not good"). She totally failed to see his efforts because she was too obsessed with how different he's from a normal human being. Even when he told her about the subroutine he coded, she acted upset and compared herself to a "mere variable", making it clear she didn't grasp what it meant to have Data code something dedicated to her. Down the line, she never really loved him for who he is, she barely projected her own desires on him and was disappointed to discover he isn't some empty canvas.
I guess she wouldn't be the only one to fail at seeing the whole picture, though. Understanding the meaning behind Data's actions needs to look at him through a brand new perspective, instead of a 'normal human' one, which is far beyong reach to many 'normal' people.

 

[Timo]

Naturally, one also has to consider whether DeSoto was interesting in being cared about, or perhaps the opposite. This is far from clear-cut in many relationships, and caring may be quite the turnoff for somebody primarily seeking a sparring partner or an emotional opposite.

But we can probably rule out her seeking the attentions of an android specifically. She may have wanted a holiday from certain human emotions, but she wasn't seriously seeking a relationship with an android, or stopping to consider whether such a thing would be a good idea. Making an effort to accommodate Data's nonhuman nature might never have occurred to her. Or if it did, it would simply be a decisive factor in not continuing the relationship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

But we can probably rule out her seeking the attentions of an android specifically. She may have wanted a holiday from certain human emotions, but she wasn't seriously seeking a relationship with an android, or stopping to consider whether such a thing would be a good idea. Making an effort to accommodate Data's nonhuman nature might never have occurred to her.

Indeed...She was just rebounding on him, projecting things on him. That being said Data would certainly make an excellent partner if given enough time to learn and adapt, but his specifities would probably only accomodate a limited number of highly motivated humans. It would be possible, it would just need many efforts and intense devotion. Vulcans may find him easier to understand and interact with, due to their logical and unemotional nature.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

DeSoto

Jenna D'Sora. (I know, picky picky.

 

[Mojochi]

YES.
That's my exact thought about the whole episode. He searched for models to emulate, coded a subroutine for the relationship, tried his best to learn from what she told him when she arrived with a present, tried his best to be a good partner and fill her emotional needs (the singing, the drink, the compliments)...Even the "lovers quarrel" was an attempt to fix a tense situation. If you pay attention to Data's behaviours and facial expressions in that scene, as Jenna grows angrier and angrier, you can litterally see him browse through available behavioural responses to find an appropriate one (kudos to Spiner for the perfect acting).
He's learning by trial and error in such complex situations, but Jenna didn't understand that. She basically never understood him at. She kept considering him to be identical to a human being instead of taking his nature into account. It's pretty stupid to ask someone so literal to understand your double meanings ("yeah keep painting, but actually, no, stop painting and focus on me"), or to want him to experience life the same exact way as humans ("what were you thinking as you kissed me ? You'd better say someone that sounds normal for humans, unless it's not good"). She totally failed to see his efforts because she was too obsessed with how different he's from a normal human being. Even when he told her about the subroutine he coded, she acted upset and compared herself to a "mere variable", making it clear she didn't grasp what it meant to have Data code something dedicated to her. Down the line, she never really loved him for who he is, she barely projected her own desires on him and was disappointed to discover he isn't some empty canvas.
I guess she wouldn't be the only one to fail at seeing the whole picture, though. Understanding the meaning behind Data's actions needs to look at him through a brand new perspective, instead of a 'normal human' one, which is far beyong reach to many 'normal' people.

It's as if she can't see the bigger picture. Imagine you have a spouse with 20 arms. Even though you're used to being hugged with only 2 arms, if they chose to hug you with only their 2 most dominant arms, would you think you're being hugged less?

Her overall issue of only being part of what Data concentrates on, in any given moment, makes no sense, because it's not as if he's equivalently distracted by what else he's concentrating on, as a human would be. It's not the same bar, lady. You're dating Data. He multitasks to the extreme, as part of his nature, & it doesn't effect him that way

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

It's as if she can't see the bigger picture. Imagine you have a spouse with 20 arms. Even though you're used to being hugged with only 2 arms, if they chose to hug you with only their 2 most dominant arms, would you think you're being hugged less?

Her overall issue of only being part of what Data concentrates on, in any given moment, makes no sense, because it's not as if he's equivalently distracted by what else he's concentrating on, as a human would be. It's not the same bar, lady. You're dating Data. He multitasks to the extreme, as part of his nature, & it doesn't effect him that way

Yup...she failed to grasp the implications of Data's personality and nonhuman nature. She just projected her wishes on him, that's why I used that canvas analogy. Because her ex-boyfriend hardly showed emotional, loving attention to her, she projected that dream of an empathetic and loving partner on him without thinking more about it.
I totally agree on the concentration thing. It's a very human thing to want constant attention because we get easily distracted indeed. That's not Data's case, he's able to concentrate with the same level of attention on dozens and dozens (maybe hundreds) of tasks at the same time, lol !
And anyway, I think that when it comes to Data, one shouldn't ask a question they don't want his honest, genuine answer to. Like, I think most humans wouldn't want pre-emochip Data's answer to the "Do you love me ?" question. If it's hurtful to Jenna to hear she's not the ONLY thing he's thinking about, then it's wiser not to ask. But I guess she didn't understand enough about Data to have thought about the situation from that angle.

 

[Marynator]

I feel you're being too hard on Jenna. I didn't feel at all she was upset he wasn't thinking only about her, her response to him was "Well I'm glad I was in there somewhere", and she was smiling. I do feel Data made a mistake by not mentioning her first; even if he is a supercomputer capable of multi-tasking, and he's not willing just for a moment to forget everything else and concentrate on her, at least she should be foremost in his mind, right?

I feel Data has many qualities that make him an ideal husband: he's absolutely perfectly kind, and compassionate, and honest. You'd never have to worry about anything with him, because he'd never put his selfish interests first, and he'd never manipulate you or try to control you. He'd always be attentive to your needs, and he'd never forget to make time for you, and he'd never break his promises or let you down. I feel he's even especially attractive to a woman who's been in abusive relationships before.

But I also understand Jenna's perspective, because there are some certain things he's never going to be able to fulfill, and if these are important to her (as they really are for most women), I don't blame her for feeling things won't work out with him. Just imagine realizing nothing you could do would ever excite him, you know? You know how sometimes you can give a man a certain look, and you can tell how excited you've made him ... well you can never do that with Data, he just won't have emotional responses like that. You can't do something special for him to make his heart melt, it just won't ever happen, and so on and so on, I think you get the idea? Well Jenna realizes this, and she feels that's not something that's going to work for her. Maybe for some people it would be enough, but she's fully within her rights to know she wants more from her relationship, and I don't believe she made a mistake. I feel it's a really healthy sign how she knows what she really wants and needs, and I think that's going to help her greatly with her future relationships.

Something in this episode I feel always bothered me is how casually Data just deletes his subroutines, like as if she never really mattered to him at all, and you can sort of see that look on Jenna's face when he says that to her. I've always wondered why he was written to do that, wouldn't he want to keep that to build on in case he ever wanted to try another relationship?

I'm still convinced Data has a conscious internal thought process. Sometimes you can just see by his expressions how he's thinking of saying something, and choosing his words, and how he's looking and observing things. His might not be exactly 100% like yours and mine, but I do believe he still has it there.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I'm still convinced Data has a conscious internal thought process. Sometimes you can just see by his expressions how he's thinking of saying something, and choosing his words, and how he's looking and observing things. His might not be exactly 100% like yours and mine, but I do believe he still has it there.

I have often commented on Spiner's uncanny ability to make extremely small but telling facial gestures and body shifts to bring the character to life. The moments before he apparently shoots at Fajo in Most Toys is huge in that regard. A lessor actor could not have sold those scenes as convincingly.

 

[Mojochi]

But I also understand Jenna's perspective, because there are some certain things he's never going to be able to fulfill, and if these are important to her (as they really are for most women), I don't blame her for feeling things won't work out with him. Just imagine realizing nothing you could do would ever excite him, you know? You know how sometimes you can give a man a certain look, and you can tell how excited you've made him ... well you can never do that with Data, he just won't have emotional responses like that. You can't do something special for him to make his heart melt, it just won't ever happen, and so on and so on, I think you get the idea? Well Jenna realizes this, and she feels that's not something that's going to work for her. Maybe for some people it would be enough, but she's fully within her rights to know she wants more from her relationship, and I don't believe she made a mistake. I feel it's a really healthy sign how she knows what she really wants and needs, and I think that's going to help her greatly with her future relationships.

I get how you feel, but here's the point. That he isn't going to be able to fulfill her needs in the way she might require, (Which is a perfectly understandable reason to end it) it isn't because HE misled her. It's because she misled herself about him. So it's kind of tough for me to fully sympathize with her in this, because this is her doing something to herself, Which she does take one moment to admit a tiny amount of responsibility for, (To her credit)

I didn't see it until today. I got out of a relationship with an unemotional man. And went right back into another with a man who is absolutely incapable of emotion.

But at the end of things we're left with the impression that Data doesn't measure up, which makes it seem like it's his fault, when clearly she had to have known about him & what his story is, to know enough that this was exactly what she was in for, but she went in anyway (Albeit, still emotionally compromised & on the rebound) The only fault he has in this, imho, is that a couple of his friends did warn him about that, that she might not be approaching this in the right state, but I can forgive that, because he's pretty naïve to have caught on to it with her.

More than anything though, she is just wrong about her reason for ending it.

Because as close as we are, I don't really matter to you. Not really. Nothing I could do or say will ever make you happy, or hurt you, or touch you in any way.

That is proven in Data's other relationships to be categorically untrue. Just because she (Arguably) couldn't touch or hurt him in any emotional way, doesn't mean she doesn't matter to him. That is HER idea of what mattering to someone is. Would we say the same about Tasha, or Geordi? No. Geordi matters to Data. (& Geordi knows it) So too could she, given the right dynamic, I think. That is her failure to not see that in him imho, & potentially allow herself to grow a little, to maybe be a kind of person who could see past her own stuff, & see the man that is actually before her, instead of expecting him to be a man that she is deliberately seeking

I don't fault her for ending it (To each their own. Ships pass in the night, etc...) I fault her for being wrong about him, & I believe another person in her place could be open-minded enough to find that piece of him that does value her, & be comforted by it, the way she speaks of it.

Something in this episode I feel always bothered me is how casually Data just deletes his subroutines, like as if she never really mattered to him at all, and you can sort of see that look on Jenna's face when he says that to her. I've always wondered why he was written to do that, wouldn't he want to keep that to build on in case he ever wanted to try another relationship?

You're assuming he is deleting all of everything in this that's happened. I only assume he is correcting his basis for continued relations with her. The poor sap still thought they'd be having dinner together afterward. Clearly some adjustment needed to be made.

He is specifically deleting only the stuff that says "I am in a relationship with Jenna". You get the difference, right? He made a program just for her & a relationship with her. Any other person who he had a relationship with, that program would be of no use... because they are not HER. How's that for mattering to someone? She had a deliberate place in his consciousness, & while he has to alter that, the experience mattered no less

I actually envy that ability to compartmentalize it, because most of us drag some of that baggage right into the next relationship (Oh... kind of like she just did) IMHO, that she's a little deflated or heartbroken over this, is on her in this situation. The whole episode is about "What should Data do?" or "Should Data do this?" but really? An equal amount of this situation is "Should Jenna be doing this?" If you switch the focus to her, this isn't a bright move on her part

Her dejected look, at the end, kind of reminded me of Fajo's last look, or Dr. Kyla Marr's (Silicon Avatar) THEY have an expectation as to what should be. That is their issue, & not to be placed on him imho

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

@Mojochi : I couldn't have said better !

 

[Mojochi]

Naturally, one also has to consider whether DeSoto was interesting in being cared about, or perhaps the opposite. This is far from clear-cut in many relationships, and caring may be quite the turnoff for somebody primarily seeking a sparring partner or an emotional opposite.

But we can probably rule out her seeking the attentions of an android specifically. She may have wanted a holiday from certain human emotions, but she wasn't seriously seeking a relationship with an android, or stopping to consider whether such a thing would be a good idea. Making an effort to accommodate Data's nonhuman nature might never have occurred to her. Or if it did, it would simply be a decisive factor in not continuing the relationship.

Timo Saloniemi

Very true. Everybody's entitled to have romantic missteps. For whatever reason, she hadn't anticipated that she'd need more than he was able to offer, despite how obvious what he can offer should've been to anyone that knows him socially. Once she realized that, & knew there was no future in this, it's perfectly valid for her to end it, even though I do think she's underestimating Data's ability to care

Interestingly, I can imagine another woman feeling the exact same way about it, & still deciding to keep seeing him, as a casual romance, with no real future aspirations for him being someone that fulfills those needs. Not every relationship has to be your lifelong soul mate, despite my opinion that I do think there's probably someone who might find Data to be a very fitting soul mate... perhaps a Vulcan, or another android, or even a human who gets it, like Sarek's wives

That's just not Jenna. It's kind of unfortunate that nobody around them spoke up about the mismatch. I suppose people do tend to mind their own business & stay out of others' relationship situations, but in this situation, as inexperienced & unoffendable as Data is, it could've been useful

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Interestingly, I can imagine another woman feeling the exact same way about it, & still deciding to keep seeing him, as a casual romance, with no real future aspirations for him being someone that fulfills those needs. Not every relationship has to be your lifelong soul mate, despite my opinion that I do think there's probably someone who might find Data to be a very fitting soul mate... perhaps a Vulcan, or another android, or even a human who gets it, like Sarek's wives

Vulcans would probably find him easier to interact with than humans do, so that'd be a very compatible pairing. Like you said, humans would be a possibility too, given that said person gets the whole picture about him and is willing to adapt to his nature. Betazoids may suffer from the lack of emotional communication, I don't think they'd enjoy a relationship with him at all. Klingons....mmmh, better not think about it xD

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Sorry for double posting, but I put my finger on something which was somewhere in my head. I had it somewhere in the back of my mind and checked it up...I knew Data said that line ! From Data's Day:

DATA (OC): Since I am not affected by emotional considerations, I am closer to being Vulcan than human. However, while their devotion to logic does have a certain appeal, I find their stark philosophy to be somewhat limited.

Does it mean he'd be more interested in building relationships with more emotional species than Vulcans, if given the choice ? It would be quite logical since he's willing to find his own humanity, and humans are definitely emotional creatures.

 

[Mojochi]

Sorry for double posting, but I put my finger on something which was somewhere in my head. I had it somewhere in the back of my mind and checked it up...I knew Data said that line ! From Data's Day:

Does it mean he'd be more interested in building relationships with more emotional species than Vulcans, if given the choice ? It would be quite logical since he's willing to find his own humanity, and humans are definitely emotional creatures.

Ultimately, the Vulcan philosophy isn't just about logic, it's about emotional suppression. A Vulcan presents as emotionless because their inherent nature is profusely unhinged emotion. So their way of life revolves around controlling that. Data has no such nature to control. While he does acknowledge the appeal of being logical, their staunch adherence to it only makes sense for a people who might otherwise fall into chaos with anything less.

For anyone besides a Vulcan, with that natural condition going on, it IS a somewhat limited philosophy, & given that Data knows that even though he currently has no emotions (At least he accepts that is a truth about himself) he also knows he IS designed to have them, & value them

It's kind of tragic, because even though someone like Data would be a perfect husband for a Vulcan, Data himself doesn't share their appreciation for emotionlessness. As such, it might be rather unsettling for a Vulcan to be intimately around someone who so easily possesses what they aspire to, but so fully rejects it, by like trying to tell a joke, or playfully call somebody a lunkhead, or make "Pleasant" chit chat, the way he's prone to do in his drive to be more human. That might annoy the shit out of a Vulcan lol

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

It's kind of tragic, because even though someone like Data would be a perfect husband for a Vulcan, Data himself doesn't share their appreciation for emotionlessness. As such, it might be rather unsettling for a Vulcan to be intimately around someone who so easily possesses what they aspire to, but so fully rejects it, by like trying to tell a joke, or playfully call somebody a lunkhead, or make "Pleasant" chit chat, the way he's prone to do in his drive to be more human. That might annoy the shit out of a Vulcan lol

Wow, I never thought of the matter from that perspective ! Very interesting and relevant point of view, indeed !
It reminds me of something we said earlier on that topic, that somehow Noonien wanted to create synthetic humans, not just a random synthetic humanoid. He could have chosen to give life to another humanoid-looking species, but settled his mind on humans because he was human himself. So down the road, because of Noonien's choice, Data's bound to reach a certain level of humanity as a part of his journey of self-discovery and as his own growth as a person -- goals which are partly incompatible with a Vulcan partner's aspirations and needs.
Seen from such an angle, it'd make more sense for Data to seek romantic partnership with a human being (so someone who possesses those traits he wants to acquire) as a part of his own growth.