Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

[T'Girl]

assisted suicide is illegal ...

Assisted suicide is legal

And what about the rest (read - vast majority) of the world?

Actually Edit XYZ, in the much of the world assisted suicide is neither legal nor illegal, it's not on the books. And there are a few places, like Japan and Canada, where the law has it both ways, the law overlaps and conflicts.

The real question is does Bajor have assisted suicide, DS9 (regardless who administers it) is Bajorian territory.

There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were.

What make you who you are is your personal identity, your knowledge of self.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself.

Again, the medical procedure was done without Kurn's permission.

Whoever it was that walked out of sickbay at the end of the episode, it wasn't Kurn.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Assisted suicide is legal

And what about the rest (read - vast majority) of the world?

Actually Edit XYZ, in the much of the world assisted suicide is neither legal nor illegal, it's not on the books. And there are a few places, like Japan and Canada, where the law has it both ways, the law overlaps and conflicts.

Actually, T'Girl, helping someone commit suicide IS a crime in the vast majority of the world.
Of course, "helping" someone for this is procuring the poison/the rope/etc for him or encouraging/etc him.

What Worf was supposed to do is plunge the knife into the heart of his brother.
THAT'S MURDER, T'Girl.
And whether the victim wants to be killed or not doesn't change this in the least.
You weren't under the impression that it's OK to kill someone who wants to die, yes?

Feel free to verify what I've just said - instead of coming up with straw-men meant to make your supported point look stronger.

There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were.

What make you who you are is your personal identity, your knowledge of self.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself.

What makes you you is your personality, your values.

When a person has amnesia, he doesn't lose himself - his personality, values, likes/dislikes, etc. Only his memories.
Feel free to check this out, too.

Kurn at the end - only the ability to walk and talk? Really?
T'Girl, you have no idea of the behavior of a being who can only walk and talk. That's obvious because Kurn's behavior at the end of the episode was the behavior of a complete individual - personality-wise.

Again, the medical procedure was done without Kurn's permission.

Did you know that, legally, doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures on a patient if these procedures are the only way to save the patient's life?

 

[R. Star]

If memory defines the person like some people seem to be suggesting, does that mean if I forgot what I had for breakfast I am somehow less of a person? I don't remember everyone in my 1st grade class, I've lost something of myself? That a person who can remember every trivial detail is somehow a greater person? Where's it stop?

Kurn's new persona knew how to speak, how to walk, so one assumes he has all his skills he had even if he doesn't remember them. I don't remember who taught me how to work a light switch, but I still can do it quite well after all. He was obedient and respect towards his "father." Kurn worshiped at authority's shrine his whole life. He'd follow orders without question and expected obedience from those below him. He expressed curiosity at this other Klingon who happened to be there, suggesting he hadn't lost his will and drive at all.

 

[T'Girl]

Again, the medical procedurewas done without Kurn's permission.

doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures ...

Oh, I never said it was a extremely dangerous procedure,

Is this an example of a strawman argument like you were referring to earlier?

THAT'S MURDER, T'Girl.

Murder is killing someone in a illegal fashion Edit_XYZ . What Kurn was requesting was very obviously not murder in the Klingon culture, and it's not clear if it was considered murder in Bajorian territory.

And whether the victim wants to be killed or not doesn't change this in the least.

Should "the victim" be in a place where assisted suicide is legal, but they don't wish to commit suicide, then their personal wishes very much enter into it.

You weren't under the impression that it's OK to kill someone who wants to die, yes?

I live in Washington State, yes it is "okay" to assist someone in committing suicide here.

Feel free to verify what I've just said ...

I looked up the facts prior to my posting, feel free to do so yourself on occasion.

only the ability to walk and talk? Really?

Oh, I never said "only" walk and talk. Is this yet another example of a strawman argument on your part?

You know, it okay to actually read my posts Edit_XYZ.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

I've often wondered this myself. Technically, Martok doesn't know anything about Worf and Drex getting into it because that was changeling Martok. I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.

 

[R. Star]

One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

I've often wondered this myself. Technically, Martok doesn't know anything about Worf and Drex getting into it because that was changeling Martok. I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.

That makes a good amount of sense. Usually if someone is acting bitchy it's for a reason, not for it's own sake.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Murder is killing someone in a illegal fashion Edit_XYZ . What Kurn was requesting was very obviously not murder in the Klingon culture, and it's not clear if it was considered murder in Bajorian territory.

Non-sense.

REAL WORLD
First - murder is illegal and immoral across all Earth's cultures (real-world, T'Girl).
Plunging a knife inside one's chest is murder - illegal and immoral.

Assisted suicide - real world:
It only applies in very few countries and in VERY RESTRICTIVE CONDITIONS: the victim must be suffering from a very painful/deadly condition, in its terminal stages;
there must be objective assessment and oversight;
etc, etc.
Being suicidal because one's depressed and in need of psychiatric help is NOT one of these very painful/deadly conditions - it's not even in the vicinity of close, T'Girl.


TREKVERSE
DS9 is under federation/starfleet jurisdiction - and both Sisko and Worf made it clear that Worf snuffing his brother IS murder as per federation/human law and morals.

Klingon culture - a joke, considering it's implausible to a ridiculous degree.
One could never build a society - beyond prison inmates level - with some of the values klingons were shown as having. The 'snuffing one's brother - because he was humiliated and is depressed - is OK and moral' being one of these values.

Should "the victim" be in a place where assisted suicide is legal, but they don't wish to commit suicide, then their personal wishes very much enter into it.

I live in Washington State, yes it is "okay" to assist someone in committing suicide here.

Under what conditions is it OK to 'assist' someone to commit suicide in your state? Because they're feeling depressed, T'Girl? With what objective assessment? Etc, etc.
Do look it up.

And let's be clear - even in the very few places and cases where assisted suicide is legal; it is MORALLY very gray.

only the ability to walk and talk? Really?

Oh, I never said "only" walk and talk. Is this yet another example of a strawman argument on your part?

You know, it okay to actually read my posts Edit_XYZ.

You might want to follow your own advice and read your own posts, T'Girl:
"Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself."

So - completely clean except walking and talking. No other exceptions indicated or alluded to by you.

Feel free to verify what I've just said ...

I looked up the facts prior to my posting, feel free to do so yourself on occasion.

Have you?
You give the impression of the contrary, T'Girl:
You didn't even properly reread your own post.

doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures ...

Oh, I never said it was a extremely dangerous procedure,
Is this an example of a strawman argument like you were referring to earlier?

No, T'Girl.
This is an example of you taking a statement out of context, so that you can attack it.
In other words, it's a blatant staw-man on your part.

My original statement:
"Did you know that, legally, doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures on a patient if these procedures are the only way to save the patient's life? "
If the procedure is not 'extremely dangerous', it's obvious the doctors have permission to perform it - when they have permission to perform even the 'extremely dangerous' ones.

 

[T'Girl]

Murder is killing someone in a illegal fashion Edit_XYZ . What Kurn was requesting was very obviously not murder in the Klingon culture, and it's not clear if it was considered murder in Bajorian territory.

First - murder is illegal and immoral across all Earth's cultures

And again, it's not clear that killing Kurn would have been considered murder. Killing and murder are not quite the same thing.

Plunging a knife inside one's chest is murder - illegal and immoral.

Except when it's not, the Klingon culture obviously doesn't consider Mauk-to'Vor to be murder, when done under certain conditions.

If hypothetically Spock had killed Kirk during Amok Time, this would not have been considered murder by the Vulcan culture. Because of the conditions in which the killing took place.

DS9 is under federation/starfleet jurisdiction - and both Sisko and Worf made it clear that Worf snuffing his brother IS murder as per federation/human law and morals.

DS9 is administered by Starfleet and they operate a starbase out of it. It definitely isn't Federation jurisdiction. And Worf told Dax that the only way he could consider Mauk-to'Vor to be murder would be to think like a Human.

Klingon culture - a joke, considering it's implausible to a ridiculous degree.

Don't know about that, the Klingons seem to operate a highly functional society, and have for centuries.

You might want to follow your own advice and read your own posts, T'Girl:

"What make you who you are is your personal identity, your knowledge of self.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself."

Bashir: Well, wiping his memory is relatively simple, say an hour.

He'll know he's a Klingon, and how to speak the language, and virtually everything he needs to know in order to survive, except who he is ...

He won't remember you or anything about his real life.

And there it is, what was removed was Kurn. Which is what I said.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean

So - completely clean except walking and talking.

Strawman.

What was removed was Kurn himself

No other exceptions indicated or alluded to by you.

And what I said (not you) was: "what was removed was Kurn himself." Which is also what Bashir said, Kurn memory would be wiped, and he wouldn't remember his real life.

Oh, and after Bashir was done, "Noggra" could in fact walk and talk.

Did you notice how I didn't use the word "only" in that sentence?

You didn't even properly reread your own post.

Thankfully I have you to repeat them all back to me.

Again, the medical procedure was done without Kurn's permission.

Did you know that, legally, doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures on a patient if these procedures are the only way to save the patient's life?

Oh, I never said it was a extremely dangerous procedure,
Is this an example of a strawman argument like you were referring to earlier?

No, T'Girl. This is an example of you taking a statement out of context, so that you can attack it.

Okay, I've quoted your entire statement, how are you possibly being taken out of context?

If the procedure is not 'extremely dangerous', it's obvious the doctors have permission to perform it - when they have permission to perform even the 'extremely dangerous' ones.

Problem there is this , Kurn was perfectly capable of being woken up, he wasn't in danger of dying on the table. Permission for any medical procedures, extremely dangerous or not, could have waited until Kurn was conscious.

How did Bashir obviously have Kurn's permission?

 

[Edit_XYZ]

T'Girl
About the trekverse:

Don't know about that, the Klingons seem to operate a highly functional society, and have for centuries.

In a fictional universe, because the scenarists said it so.
T'Girl, their culture is a joke because it's not realistic AKA it could never exist in the real world - no scenarists to help with a ton of poetic licenses.

If hypothetically Spock had killed Kirk during Amok Time, this would not have been considered murder by the Vulcan culture. Because of the conditions in which the killing took place.

This duel to the death in vulcan society is also garbage development - and morally abhorrent.
It undermines vulcan society as anything approaching moral and makes every single vulcan character opening his/her mouth about how illogical/immoral humans/etc are a complete hypocrite.

DS9 is administered by Starfleet and they operate a starbase out of it. It definitely isn't Federation jurisdiction.

It definitely IS starfleet/federation jurisdiction:
Tials are conducted in accordance with federation law, federation citizens being the judges (the fate of Dax, Rugal, Worf, etc was shown being decided thus).

About the real world:
DO read what I wrote, T'Girl, instead of coming up with semantic irrelevancies or fictional non-viable 'morals':

Spoiler

REAL WORLD
First - murder is illegal and immoral across all Earth's cultures (real-world, T'Girl).
Plunging a knife inside one's chest is murder - illegal and immoral.

Assisted suicide - real world:
It only applies in very few countries and in VERY RESTRICTIVE CONDITIONS: the victim must be suffering from a very painful/deadly condition, in its terminal stages;
there must be objective assessment and oversight;
etc, etc.
Being suicidal because one's depressed and in need of psychiatric help is NOT one of these very painful/deadly conditions - it's not even in the vicinity of close, T'Girl.

About your...logically wobbly statements:

You might want to follow your own advice and read your own posts, T'Girl:

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself.

So - completely clean except walking and talking. No other exceptions indicated or alluded to by you.

You said the only thing Kurn knew was to walk and talk.
No taking your statements out of context will change this.

Did you notice how I didn't use the word "only" in that sentence?

No, you used: "Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk."

If you want to play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' when faced with the evident - well, be my guest.

Strawman.

On your part.

Okay, I've quoted your entire statement, how are you possibly being taken out of context?

No you didn't.
You quoted: "doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures ..."
The entire statement is "Did you know that, legally, doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures on a patient if these procedures are the only way to save the patient's life?"

You also attacked an irrelevant point of the statement - hence your need to take it out of context.

 

[DonIago]

It's hard to believe that you have a genuine interest in discussing the topic when you freely dismiss elements of the show that are in no way unique to this episode as "that's not realistic".

 

[Edit_XYZ]

It's hard to believe that you have a genuine interest in discussing the topic when you freely dismiss elements of the show that are in no way unique to this episode as "that's not realistic".

I am discussing the morality of killing one's brother because said brother is depressed.

When discussing morality, I don't take as true moral/societal values that are obviously not viable/abhorrent (of which you find a lot in trek relating to klingon "culture").

In these matters, I find the opposite practice (embraced by quite a few participants in this thread) toxic.
Why?
Because it can lead to many actually believing the abhorrent conclusions based on such flawed premises have any validity.

 

[starburst]

One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

It probably should have been mentioned, I always assumed he died during battle sometime between Way of the Warrior and when the real Martok broke out of prison with Worf.

As for the morality of Kurn wanting to die, like they say in the episode judging it by human standards its murder, Worf even seemed to struggle with killing him because of this due to being brought up by humans.

Had Worf not either killed him or neuralised him Kurn would have found a way to die honorably or not (the consequences being whether you believe in the existence in an afterlife be it Klingon or other). Its a shame they didnt find a way to resolve the situation like they did with Kor.

 

[T'Girl]

It's hard to believe that you have a genuine interest in discussing the topic when you freely dismiss elements of the show that are in no way unique to this episode as "that's not realistic".

And it not just the Klingons who possess a alien society and culture. The Vulcans aren't depicted as Humans, neither are the Trill. Alien cultures in Star Trek can be used to examine our own, compare and contrast. Should the various alien cultures in Star Trek be to much the "ideal just like me," the show would suffer for it.

With the exception of the technology, there actually nothing about the Klingon culture (in whole or bits and pieces) that can't be found in our own history. And in our own present.

Is Klingon Mauk-to'Vor so much different that Japanese seppuku?

Replace the word "honor," with the word "respect," and there are some aspects of the Klingon culture in the one I grew up with. But only some.

Picard (Ethics): " We don't have to agree with it, we don't have to understand it, but we do have to respect his beliefs."

depressed

You seem to be under the impression that Kurn wanted to die out of simply depression, you've referred to him being "depressed" a few times in this thread.

Kurn had been stripped of his honor and societal position through no action of his own, it was a result of his older brother that he found himself in this situation. Kurn's worthiness and respectability inside the Klingon world was gone, his father's house dissolved. The House of Mogh had a seat on the Klingon council, since Worf (as head of House) didn't participate in council meetings, debatably it was Kurn who actually sat in council.

Kurn wasn't "depressed," he was shamed.

I mentioned Japanese seppuku previously, one of the prime motivations for seppuku (ritual suicide) was personal shame and dishonor. In more formal seppuku there would be a selected attendant, and the ceremony would take on the form of assisted suicide.

So there is a parallel to Mauk-to'Vor in Human historical culture.

*******************

Remainder of post deleted.

*******************

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

Don't allow yourself to be dragged into a meta argument, T'Girl. Its a distraction. The record is here for all.

 

[T'Girl]

Good advise.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Good advise.

That's because your position is found to be lacking when confronted by actual moral values.

PS - 'shamed' is a lighter condition than 'clinically depressed'.

 

[lurok]

I've often wondered this myself. Technically, Martok doesn't know anything about Worf and Drex getting into it because that was changeling Martok. I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.

Thank you for this. Makes a lot of sense.

It probably should have been mentioned, I always assumed he died during battle sometime between Way of the Warrior and when the real Martok broke out of prison with Worf.

And this.

Don't allow yourself to be dragged into a meta argument, T'Girl. Its a distraction. The record is here for all.

And this.

 

[T'Girl]

I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.

Thank you for this. Makes a lot of sense.

I've been assuming for years it was Worf's earlier discommodation, but this makes more sense. It's more personal to Martok's house.

PS - 'shamed' is a lighter condition than 'clinically depressed'.

Depression is internal to yourself, Shame has to do with your position in society and your reponsibilities to it.

 

[DonIago]

Drex plays a part in, I believe, "A Singular Destiny". I don't think the DS9 incident is mentioned. He's doing well enough as a captain of a ship, or possibly a group of ships.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

PS - 'shamed' is a lighter condition than 'clinically depressed'.

Depression is internal to yourself, Shame has to do with your position in society and your reponsibilities to it.

Depression and shame/humiliation are both psychological. They may have medical causes or societal ones - not really relevant for this discussion.