Something that bugs me about TUC

[cgervasi]

Plus Uhura's line: "They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."

Clearly says that Valeris WASN'T prosecuted.

Do you see "might as well have" as being conditional, like Spanish habría? Consider X to be Uhura is prosecuted and Y to be Valaris is prosecuted. Is "might as well" only used in the structure "X might as well have happened, if thing Y (which did not happen) had happened?" Put yet another way, "If Y were true, X would be a plausible condition." In this interpretation, it implies Y is false, i.e. Valaris is free.

I do not use the modal verb might in this way. To me it's more like, "X is a plausible outcome, because Y is also plausible." I use it like Spanish 'X' podía pasar pues 'Y' también podía pasar. I do not use it like 'X' podría haber pasado si 'Y' hubiera pasado.

I understand that modal verbs are vague in English. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but rather to understand the nuts and bolts of how you're interpreting the grammar.

Thank you for indulging my technical grammar question.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

So if this stuff was all quietly swept under the rug, why does Picard tell Spock that "history is aware of the role you played [in peace with the Klingons], Ambassador" in the "Unification" two-parter on TNG?

Because that episode aired a few weeks prior to TUC's release -- the point was to build anticipation for the movie and put butts in seats. Same reason Spock was hung up for 75 years on the fact that he had to "...bear the responsibility for the consequences to [Capt Kirk] and his crew..." OMG -- what happened to Kirk and the crew? We'll have to go see the movie and find out! I was there, I know. It certainly pumped me for what might happen. But after you watch TUC, you say "Ehn. That wasn't really worth the energy to worry about for 75 years."

And why in the world would you end your last motion picture with the original cast on a strange note of ambiguity in the last five minutes like that?

I think this thread is evidence of the fact that's precisely what they ended up doing. A single additional word would have cleared this up:

McCoy: "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute us!"

or

McCoy: "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute her!"

 

[cgervasi]

Same reason Spock was hung up for 75 years on the fact that he had to "...bear the responsibility for the consequences to [Capt Kirk] and his crew..." OMG -- what happened to Kirk and the crew? We'll have to go see the movie and find out! I was there, I know. It certainly pumped me for what might happen. But after you watch TUC, you say "Ehn. That wasn't really worth the energy to worry about for 75 years."

I know! I thought the same thing. I remember speculating of what might happen. People thought Kirk might die because there was a clip of the shapeshifter in Kirk's form being vaporized. I was totally disappointed with the lack of payoff. I was going to see the film no matter what, so I was disappointed there was nothing I could point to that would have made Spock go on a rogue diplomatic mission 75 years later.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Good God, this "debate" is still raging. Unbelievable.

I disagree with you there, but I can see this interpretation. I always took this line to mean that Uhura felt like Lt. Valeris in that she did not consider the Klingons trustworthy. Now granted, this would have been clearer in the finished film if Nichols had not outright refused to say the line "Guess who's coming to dinner?" which was instead given to Chekov. Nicholas Meyer felt that some of the stronger prejudicial lines would have more bite coming from the African-American actors (Such as "Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy" coming out of the mouth of To Kill a Mockingbird's Brock Peters).

But since Nichols was not comfortable saying those lines or felt that they were out of character for Uhura (or both), in the finished film her largest beef with the Klingons is their table manners.

Ms. Nichols was right to not say that line because it's twisting the title of a great film to create some racist undercurrent coming from our heroine. Based on the struggles and victories she's been through from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's I can't blame her for out right not saying those stupid lines and shame on Meyer for even considering a great character like Uhura - - who historically had the first interracial kiss, and as Nichelle was counseled by civil rights icon Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to not leave the show. In Meyer's limited imagination it had bite but visually it makes the characters appear stupid and doesn't have a clue where their history came from and the struggles they fought to earn what they have now.

Also, the "Alien trash of the galaxy" line was too obvious Cartwright was involved in the assassination. He should've been on Spock's side just to not appear suspicious, or you know cover your tracks. I was shocked at the short term memory of the crew when Spock mind melded Valeris and she snitched on Cartwright and one of them blurted out in shocked, "Of Starfleet???" As if they didn't witness his all out rant of protestation of Klingons aligning with UFP??? This movie... is incredible.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I wasn't trying to say whether I thought Ms. Nichols was right or wrong in her feelings. I only wanted to note how she felt.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think this thread is evidence of the fact that's precisely what they ended up doing. A single additional word would have cleared this up:

McCoy: "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute us!"

or

McCoy: "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute her!"

>Shrug< I'm not seeing a few very vocal people in this thread who are misunderstanding the line as representing a great mass confusion on this plot point. "And the good news is, they're not going to prosecute" has a better rhythm without an extra word at the end, and it's always a good idea to have your jokes be as short & punchy as possible. An extra word at the end changes the emphasis of the sentence. The punchline is in the word "prosecute."

And the fact that the very last we see of Valeris is her being held in handcuffs speaks volumes. Movies are about images, and there is no ambiguity to that image. Contrast it with the ending of a film that came out just two years after TUC, 1993's The Fugitive. The very last scene is U.S. Marshall Phillip Gerard releasing Dr. Richard Kimble from his handcuffs, and we get this exchange:

GERARD: Let me see those hands, Doctor.

KIMBLE: I thought you didn't care.

GERARD: I don't.

GERARD: Don't tell anybody, okay?

Contrast that with "I didn't kill my wife!" / "I don't care." Yeah, there's still stuff to take care of at the end (that's why they're going away in a squad car), but that scene tells you all you need to know. Gerard now believes that Kimble is innocent, the real bad guys have been caught, and Kimble is at long last going to be all right. The chase is over. We've gone from A to Z.

Or look at the Trek movies. In TUC, Kirk goes from "Let them die" to believing that peace with the Klingons could be a good thing. Spock goes from believing in Valeris and thinking that he knows best to being betrayed & humbled. In TWOK, Kirk goes from "Galloping around the cosmos is a game for the young" to "I feel... young." In TSFS, Kirk goes from believing "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" to sacrificing his son and his ship because the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many. In ST09, Kirk goes from "the only genius level multiple offender in the Midwest," dreaming of a better life, to saving the Federation and captaining the Enterprise. You start with your character in one place, and you end with them someplace completely different. A to Z. That's storytelling 101.

If Valeris is beloved & heroic at the beginning of TUC and then forgiven & set free at the end, she has no arc. She's learned nothing and achieved nothing. But going from a valued protege that Spock wants to succeed him on the Enterprise to a traitor to the Federation - now THAT'S a story!

 

[Peach Wookiee]

This is directed at Discofan and Smellmet...
You two came very close to attacking your fellow posters, rather than the posts they made. If you both carry on like that again, you will be getting infractions.