Something that bugs me about TUC

[FormerLurker]

Exactly. It's really not that complicated and is laid out pretty simply for the audience, if you think about it.

McCoy says "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute!"

Audience says "Huh? Not prosecute who?"

Immediately afterward, Uhura says " They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."

Audience says "OH! Valeris was let off the hook. Good. We liked her and were upset that she became a bad guy, but feel better now that all is forgiven. It's a happy ending after all."

It's more like:

McCoy says "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute!"

Audience says "Why would they prosecute the heroes? What did they do?"

Immediately afterward, Uhura says " They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."

Audience says "OH! Valeris is getting prosecuted. Good. She betrayed her oath and everything Starfleet stands for to get revenge on Klingons who never did anything to her. Good riddance."

It astounds me how many FANS complain about how obvious Valeris was as the mole/traitor in the crew, yet non-fans have no problem with it, because they just don't make the connection with Saavik, and don't need it. The story is entertaining for them as it is.

 

[Discofan]

It's more like:

McCoy says "And the good news is they're not going to prosecute!"

Audience says "Why would they prosecute the heroes? What did they do?"

Immediately afterward, Uhura says " They might as well have prosecuted me. I felt like Lieutenant Valeris."

Audience says "OH! Valeris is getting prosecuted. Good. She betrayed her oath and everything Starfleet stands for to get revenge on Klingons who never did anything to her. Good riddance."

It astounds me how many FANS complain about how obvious Valeris was as the mole/traitor in the crew, yet non-fans have no problem with it, because they just don't make the connection with Saavik, and don't need it. The story is entertaining for them as it is.

And the "audience", IE you, doesn't realize that in that context, Uhura's statement doesn't make any sense?

Odd!

 

[Timo]

Hmh? Of course it makes perfect sense. Valeris is being prosecuted, unlike our heroes. Uhura is relieved, but can now afford to reveal she thinks Valeris shouldn't be prosecuted for merely killing Klingon scum (but better her than, well, her). McCoy is sort of neutral on that subject, but Chekov then supports Uhura in the only-good-Klingon-is-dead-Klingon sentiment. The entire movie thus ends on a happy status quo note where nobody can doubt the patriotic fervor of our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Hmh? Of course it makes perfect sense. Valeris is being prosecuted, unlike our heroes. Uhura is relieved, but can now afford to reveal she thinks Valeris shouldn't be prosecuted for merely killing Klingon scum (but better her than, well, her). McCoy is sort of neutral on that subject, but Chekov then supports Uhura in the only-good-Klingon-is-dead-Klingon sentiment. The entire movie thus ends on a happy status quo note where nobody can doubt the patriotic fervor of our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

I didn't think it was possible but you're making even less sense than previously.

And are adding out of the blue that Uhura and Chekov are now a pair of inveterate racists!

I think you should stop before you include that Kirk is a pro-Nazi.!

 

[Smellmet]

I didn't think it was possible but you're making even less sense than previously.

And are adding out of the blue that Uhura and Chekov are now a pair of inveterate racists!

I think you should stop before you include that Kirk is a pro-Nazi.!

This scene is clear as day.

McCoy 'and the good news is they're not going to prosecute'

Meaning the crew of the enterprise are not going to be prosecuted for disobeying orders and breaching klingon space etc

Uhuras 'I felt like Lt. valeris'

Meaning she either felt ill will towards the klingons or she felt like a wrongdoer for the aforementioned infractions.

Valeris was clearly IN CUSTODY at the end of the film for the murder of 2 federation officers amongst other things.

What part of this is difficult to grasp?

 

[Timo]

"Out of the blue"? Both were given infamous racist quotes as key bits of dialogue. It's a key theme in the movie, really. Then again, it's a key theme of ST6: The Undiscovered Country. Perhaps you saw some other movie?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

...
What part of this is difficult to grasp?

Your changing of the script to suit your purpose.

Why did you do that?

Did you think people wouldn't notice that you shortened Uhura's line?

As has been shown previously the people they aren't going to prosecute are the conspirators, meaning Valeris is footloose and fancy-free.

 

[Discofan]

"Out of the blue"? Both were given infamous racist quotes as key bits of dialogue. It's a key theme in the movie, really. Then again, it's a key theme of ST6: The Undiscovered Country. Perhaps you saw some other movie?

Timo Saloniemi

The key theme in the movie is that they all changed their minds after Azetbur's acknowledgment of Kirk's wisdom.

"You've restored my father's faith!"

How could you miss that?

 

[Smellmet]

Your changing of the script to suit your purpose.

Why did you do that?

Did you think people wouldn't notice that you shortened Uhura's line?

As has been shown previously the people they aren't going to prosecute are the conspirators, meaning Valeris is footloose and fancy-free.

So you're seriously suggesting that the conspirators in this movie all just get let off scot free, despite committing murder? Please. Just stop You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Discofan]

So you're seriously suggesting that the conspirators in this movie all just get let off scot free, despite committing murder? Please. Just stop You're embarrassing yourself.

I am embarrassed for you. In order to shoehorn your theory, like a round peg in a square hole, you have to ignore parts of the script, pretend that they don't exist.

 

[Discofan]

The reason they let the conspirators go free is that the peace talks was the larger picture and far more important than individual vengeance. A trial of so many people would have sparked controversy and risked creating divisions. The Klingons would say that the Federation people were more guilty and the Federation people would have said the opposite. This would have poisoned the peace talks and both Azetbur and the President realize that that was more important.

The same thing happened in Change Of Heart when Sisko said to Worf that he wouldn't be punished because even a secret court-martial would have run the risk of revealing too much. Worf was off the hook because of the BIG PICTURE.

 

[Smellmet]

The reason they let the conspirators go free is that the peace talks was the larger picture and far more important than individual vengeance. A trial of so many people would have sparked controversy and risked creating divisions. The Klingons would say that the Federation people were more guilty and the Federation people would have said the opposite. This would have poisoned the peace talks and both Azetbur and the President realize that that was more important.


The same thing happened in Change Of Heart when Sisko said to Worf that he wouldn't be punished because even a secret court-martial would have run the risk of revealing too much. Worf was off the hook because of the BIG PICTURE.

...none of which was shown on screen. You enjoy your fantasies.

 

[Discofan]

...none of which was shown on screen. You enjoy your fantasies.

Unlike yours, my fantasies are supported by arguments. Your fantasies demand that you ignore part of the script. Mine don't.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

So you're seriously suggesting that the conspirators in this movie all just get let off scot free, despite committing murder? Please. Just stop You're embarrassing yourself.

They let Valeris off because she flipped on her co-conspirators and gave up Cartwright and associates (plea deal, Presidential pardon, whatever). That's why she is mentioned by Uhura following McCoy's line.

 

[DonIago]

I can see them reducing Valeris's sentence as a result of her (belatedly) cooperating, but not letting her off entirely.

 

[Discofan]

The reason the let go Valeris is the same they let Worf off the hook, IE there were higher considerations at stake. A long complicated multi-headed trial could have taken months to conclude and in the meantime created divided loyalties that would have poisoned the peace talks, each defendant could have presented a defense, a defense that could have implicated other people, some of their arguments could have seemed convincing to some of the people at the talks.

In keeping with the Starfleet spirit, it seems obvious why they didn't prosecute.

 

[Timo]

Oh, utter nonsense. There's no need to read anything into those lines, grammatically or logically or religiously, other than what's actually said. Which is that Uhura and Chekov enjoy the fact that they weren't prosecuted for their actions, but think that Valeris being prosecuted is an injustice because any good Starfleet officer (such as Uhura or Chekov) wants to see Klingons dead or at least on their knees.

There is no change of heart. There is no sudden unlocking of handcuffs. There is no philosophical point. There's just the events shown.

Everything else is utter nonsense.

(Although of course as long as it doesn't contradict anything, it can be accepted as part of canon. Nothing there to say Kirk didn't kill Valeris to protect Starfleet from the shame, say. Or release her. Or other such utter nonsense.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Smellmet]

The reason the let go Valeris is the same they let Worf off the hook, IE there were higher considerations at stake. A long complicated multi-headed trial could have taken months to conclude and in the meantime created divided loyalties that would have poisoned the peace talks, each defendant could have presented a defense, a defense that could have implicated other people, some of their arguments could have seemed convincing to some of the people at the talks.

In keeping with the Starfleet spirit, it seems obvious why they didn't prosecute.

What part of this nonsense is shown on screen? Oh that's right, none of it. You are literally making stuff up now.

 

[David cgc]

Oh, utter nonsense. There's no need to read anything into those lines, grammatically or logically or religiously, other than what's actually said. Which is that Uhura and Chekov enjoy the fact that they weren't prosecuted for their actions, but think that Valeris being prosecuted is an injustice because any good Starfleet officer (such as Uhura or Chekov) wants to see Klingons dead or at least on their knees.

No, Uhura and Chekov were having a "There but for the grace of God" moment. They've been shamed by seeing their racism against Klingons put into practice, and realized how wrong they were, to the point where Uhura feels like she should be regarded as an honorary conspirator for not trusting the Klingons were genuine about wanting peace. She's probably worried she would've gotten swept up and not done the right thing if Valeris or Cartwright or someone had tried to recruit her.

 

[Greg Cox]

"And the good news is they're not going to prosecute" is just McCoy making a smart-ass remark and should not be taken literally. He's cracking wise as McCoy does.

Of course, it doesn't refer to Valeris. There is no ambiguity or confusion here.