I was thinking she may have engaged her forces in a conflict with perhaps the Romulans and the loss of many Klingon lives was laid at her door? That or she gave Klingon women too many rights? Or maybe she gave pretty lousy tea parties on Q'Onos?
JB
Something that bugs me about TUC
- Thread starter Discofan
- Start date
I was thinking she may have engaged her forces in a conflict with perhaps the Romulans and the loss of many Klingon lives was laid at her door? That or she gave Klingon women too many rights? Or maybe she gave pretty lousy tea parties on Q'Onos?
JB
I sort of doubt a leader who sends lots of warriors to Sto-Vo-Kor would get a bad rap for it. Dying in battle is supposed to the favorite Klingon pastime, after all.
OTOH, Klingons don't give rights. They take them. Perhaps Azetbur indeed tried something that smelled too human?
Timo Saloniemi
OTOH, Klingons don't give rights. They take them. Perhaps Azetbur indeed tried something that smelled too human?
Timo Saloniemi
Well, the Duras sisters tried to take over too and if not for being blown out for good, they could have succeeded, especially with their star ending weapon.
The idea of a ship being unable to fire while cloaked, apparently observed as an immutable law of nature by our gang Kirk and Co., doesn’t withstand much scrutiny either.
The notion presented (or that I inferred) is that the clock sucks up so much power that a ship couldn’t spare any more for firing weapons. Hm. Don’t think too hard about that.
The Klingons like to lob torpedoes, which obviously could and undoubtedly do have their own internal guidance and propulsion. All they need is to manually open a hatch and make use of a giant Wile E. Coyote Acme rubber band to sling that sucker out the tube, and then let the torpedo’s independent brain and thruster do the rest.
Another thing. You’re telling me that on a ship that smart with a science officer like Spock, they couldn’t do a frame analysis of their recorded video and conclude that the illegally shot torpedo didn’t come from the Enterprise? Based on the angle, or lack of physical perturbation of the ship at that instant, or something? Even as a tiny tyke in the theater watching that, I was nonplussed.
I enjoy TUC for what it is, but you can’t think too deeply about it.
The notion presented (or that I inferred) is that the clock sucks up so much power that a ship couldn’t spare any more for firing weapons. Hm. Don’t think too hard about that.
The Klingons like to lob torpedoes, which obviously could and undoubtedly do have their own internal guidance and propulsion. All they need is to manually open a hatch and make use of a giant Wile E. Coyote Acme rubber band to sling that sucker out the tube, and then let the torpedo’s independent brain and thruster do the rest.
Another thing. You’re telling me that on a ship that smart with a science officer like Spock, they couldn’t do a frame analysis of their recorded video and conclude that the illegally shot torpedo didn’t come from the Enterprise? Based on the angle, or lack of physical perturbation of the ship at that instant, or something? Even as a tiny tyke in the theater watching that, I was nonplussed.
I enjoy TUC for what it is, but you can’t think too deeply about it.
In the distant future, I would expect all bombs to be smart bombs and therefore all you would need to do is tell the torpedo what the target is (with even different ways to identify it) and it would then make all the necessary calculation to hit it with the best possible angle at the best possible spot. The bomb could even have the blueprints and specs of all known vessels with their known weaknesses. Hell, we're almost there TODAY!
Not stated, though. It's equally possible that cloaks imply start to leak at the seams if trying to hide something energetic, and installing a more powerful cloaking device just makes matters worse. So having an impulse drive running at Lukewarm is sorta okay, but having disruptors at Hot is not. Arming the guns is the same thing as dropping the cloak...
This is nicely analogous with how stealth warfare ITRW is conducted. If you flood your torp tubes or open your bomb bay doors, the enemy hears and sees you. Sure, you may come up with a silent tube or a radarproof bay door, but you know the state of the art and you know the enemy doesn't have that yet. Or didn't until now..
What good would that do? They already know their computer is lying to them. They also know they didn't intend to fire. They can count the expended ammo and be certain they didn't fire. But they can't come up with anything anybody else would accept as evidence.
Timo Saloniemi
Well Spock was right initially, but then didn't correct or expand on Valeris' answer - the exchange is:
Spock: You're forgetting something, Mister Chekov. According to our data banks this ship fired those torpedoes. If we did, the killers are here, if we did not, whoever altered the data banks is here. In either case, what we are looking for is here.
CHEKOV: What are we looking for, sir?
SPOCK: Lieutenant?
VALERIS: Two pairs of gravity boots.
He is right (assuming as we must in 1989 that to alter a computer you had to be physically there) that someone involved must be on the Enterprise and evidence therefore likely exists on the ship. What doesn't follow is Valeris' conclusion that the only object of their search is gravity boots. While obviously they did need to search for these, as others have pointed out in the thread, the assassins could have come from the BoP. What they needed to focus on was evidence of the altering of the data banks. Digital forensics was the order of the day.
There's a traitor among the crew? Could it be Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Chekov, Sulu, Uhura or that new crewmember who only joined us for this mission?
Most obvious whodunit ever
Would have been much better with Saavik, for that reason. But that wasn't to be.
You know that initially Valeris was supposed to be Saavik (which would explain Spock's mentor attitude vis a vis her) but Kim Cattrall didn't want to play a character already played by two other actresses and so they created Valeris for her. Plus Spock and Saavik had sex... that has to create a bond of sorts.
Indeed, that's what I was referring to. The original plan was to be Saavik, and that would have had a much bigger emotional punch and a better mystery. Especially if there was also a new redshirt character who turned out not to be guilty despite being the obvious suspect.
The plot may not have been written as the tightest whodunnit in the history of drama, but what we observe Spock doing here is eminently logical from the point of the criminal investigation.
Spock knows there's at least one traitor aboard. He has personally vouched for Kirk, but may be regretting that now; he hasn't vouched for anybody else. Everybody on the bridge is a suspect, and rightly so, because the "crime" here is killing Klingons, which is supposed to be what you get medals for. But every suspect is also involved in the investigation, which might pose a problem. Not for Spock: he sees this as an opportunity, giving everybody enough rope to hang themselves at least thrice. Chekov gets to conduct the forensics job, and fucks that up royally - is he perhaps the traitor? Saavik is allowed to direct the inquiries, and misdirects them in stupid directions - is she perhaps the traitor? Scotty gets to look for physical evidence, and ends up his arms full - is he perhaps the traitor?
Spock's role here is limited to playing along, until he can be certain which of his co-investigators dunnit. And he plays that to the hilt...
Timo Saloniemi
Spock knows there's at least one traitor aboard. He has personally vouched for Kirk, but may be regretting that now; he hasn't vouched for anybody else. Everybody on the bridge is a suspect, and rightly so, because the "crime" here is killing Klingons, which is supposed to be what you get medals for. But every suspect is also involved in the investigation, which might pose a problem. Not for Spock: he sees this as an opportunity, giving everybody enough rope to hang themselves at least thrice. Chekov gets to conduct the forensics job, and fucks that up royally - is he perhaps the traitor? Saavik is allowed to direct the inquiries, and misdirects them in stupid directions - is she perhaps the traitor? Scotty gets to look for physical evidence, and ends up his arms full - is he perhaps the traitor?
Spock's role here is limited to playing along, until he can be certain which of his co-investigators dunnit. And he plays that to the hilt...
Timo Saloniemi
The writers did have a little fun in that movie. Spock talks of an old Vulcan proverb that speaks of Nixon. The Klingon like Shakespeare so much that they've decided that he was Klingon himself. Chekov references a movie from the sixties but with a meaning opposite of what was originally intended. Kirk hits a giant alien in the knees, turns out it was in the balls (I bet he was a Ballkneedian ( related to the Ballchinians)). A shapeshifter tells Kirk that kissing his own self was his lifelong ambition (which I found very funny). The UTs look enormous, kinda like cell phones from the 80s.
They looked like Adam West's Batcommunicator with one of the antennae broken off.
Because imposter Saavik had sex with Spock doesn't mean he couldn't suppress the emotional moment in his mind, so a bond may have been moot.
He did suspected her because after Kirk was arrested he didn't look at her as he did before, plus whenever Spock wanted to talk to his fellow comrades he had her do other things, but looked at her very stern. But who else could it have been? Meyer tried his best to hide her reveal when the culprit (A MAN) entered Sickbay, but no one in the audience would believe it was anybody else but her.
I love TUC, but the idea that somehow Kirk got arrested by the Klingons, put on trial, and shipped off to the prison planet without the Klingons ever detecting the tracking device on his clothing--or Kirk ever changing clothes--is not something you want to think about too hard.
It's also retroactive when it was common knowledge Klingons don't take prisoners but when Kirk was found guilty... it was like -- uh... wait a minute, we all of a sudden have penal colonies. It would've been interesting if the Klingons would have to work with an ally who had penal colonies and the Romulans were guarding that aliens' border. I just didn't buy the Enterprise blasting through warp speed in the heart of Klingon space and intel couldn't identify their greatest enemy's vessel??? Wow.
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You're right. There are lots of little inconsistencies.
Nope.
After Gorkon's assassination plot, I always found it odd when Kirk and McCoy was guided through the Klingon ship they ended up in the dining room of Gorkon's quarters. So all of that time past, and not one of his subordinates had the presence of mind to take the injured man, such an important, valuable man... to sickbay??? I heard through dialogue the Doctor was killed but what the hell is McCoy trying to aid the wounded man and he's not in Sickbay with another medical professional??? There had to be more personnel with Klingon medical knowledge on that ship. This kind of bad writing reminds me of the scene in Spielberg's War of the Worlds where Cruise and his kids enter a house and all of them are in the kitchen and they're hungry but no one ever thought about going to the fridge, especially when one of the kids was allergic to peanut butter.
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I don't think we've ever seen a Klingon sickbay in the entire franchise.
