Something that bugs me about TUC

[jaime]

Damn I never thought about that. That unravels the whole thing doesn't it.

It’s something I never really thought of in relation to the movies till today. I mean you could argue tracing the transporter beam would give away the ships position, and it’s shields would be down, so...
But it certainly messes with why the killers even had to be enterprise crewmen to start off with. Admiral Cartwright just has to have a cloaked BoP beam up a crate with starfleet EVA suits and phasers with the Enterprise markings on, and do that. Don’t even need some funky fire when cloaked BoP for that. In fact, Valeris can do it, because the BoP in the film is under the enterprise to fake the torpedo shots. No transporter logs, no smoking gun, nada. In fact, blowing both ships would lead to the war state they wanted...no need for all the smoke and mirrors.
It must have been a Romulan plot all along. Far too complicated.

 

[jaime]

Its an inconsistency to whether the signal from the Transporter or Weapons fire is stopped by the cloak or whether it is solely a power issue and you can't use one while the other is on. I always took it as a power issue which is why the BoP can use the transporter while landed (despite having a serious power issue anyway) but that ignores the fact that they can use the Warp Drive while cloaked with no issue.

I think it’s basically shields or cloak. And the weapons are hardwired to not be usable when cloaked, because the minute you charge weapons and fire, your enemy knows where you are and that have no shields up. The power drain thing is something we see with Romulan ships way back in TOS, but it’s never really thought out in relation to Klingon ships or more standard weapons like a torpedo...particularly the post TWOK torpedoes that are basically just old fashioned ballistic weapons, not some generated by the ships own power. In short...any cloaked ship can fire a torpedo, so why the excitement?
I feel bad. Thinking about this has just punched a whole bunch of holes in the movies particularly.

 

[Timo]

I wouldn't worry about cloaks and transporters. We have been shown plenty of times that transporters work just fine through cloaks (even if implicitly so in contexts other than ST4 - say, when Picard and Data beam down to Romulus from a Klingon ship). But we have also seen that transporters aren't exactly covert: an object about to pop back into realspace starts out by sparkling a lot.* And Romulans think beaming out from under a cloak is a bad idea in general (and influence the thinking of their allies, such as Sisko or the Duras sisters, too), with a potential for revealing emissions.

So brash Klingons could and would use transporters and guns and shields while cloaked, to varying degrees of damage to the cloaking effect. Preheated guns probably glow the worst, which is why Klingons as a general rule only make their weapons hot after decloaking; combat shields may be equally bad. But sometimes perfect cloaking is superfluous. Chang wrought plenty of havoc with a cloaking effect that was ruined every time he fired, because the cloak went down for such a short time, not letting Kirk fire back. A quicker Starfleet targeting system, or a better Starfleet sensor array that reads the torpedo firing "pollution" off the cloak even between shots, would put a quick stop to Chang's antics - but there would be other uses for firing-when-cloaked, against lesser opponents, in less tight spots. It's not a rat race of absolutes, but exactly because of that the preferred tactic of the day may vary a lot.

The original question is the intriguing one: why would it appear likely that the assassins would come from the Enterprise? And the answer again lies outside technical absolutes, I guess: the conspirators wouldn't have it any other way, as Kirk and Kirk specifically must fry for this action.

Getting Gorkon killed is a good start for Chang. But he doesn't want Kirk martyred, or the benefit of doubt lingering. He wants a proper kangaroo court with plenty of convincing fake evidence. And Spock would deduce this much, long before he had any proof of the specifics of whodunnit or whydunnit. This is a setup job, and the heroes better be prepared for the full impact of framing. Kirk's torpedo launchers may actually have done the damage until otherwise proven; assassins directly connectable to Kirk are likely to have committed the actual slaying.

And ultimately, there's nothing to be lost by hunting for onboard assassins...

Timo Saloniemi

* Sure, making it not sparkle is a cheap parlor trick in "Devil's Due". But apparently those parlor tricks call for parlors, as no hero or opponent ever uses them out in the battlefield.

 

[Bad Robot]

The whole movies is full of internal holes, as well as external discrepancies with other Treks (the latter I'm inclined to forgive, since I don't think researching every series was halfway realistic even before TNG's many spinoffs). As well as just general scripted sloppiness.

First Uhura stupidly asks whether the "energy surge" they detected might've come from Kronos One. This comes literally seconds after Scotty dismissed the notion that Kronos One fired on itself (I'd like to see what that would even look like).

Chekov rightly points out the assassins could have beamed aboard Kronos One from this cloaked ship they've speculated exists. In fact he seems sure of it for some reason. Spock counters that someone aboard Enterprise needed to either fire the torpedoes or alter the ship's data banks. Having considered BOTH possibilities, he still doesn't consider the assassins could be anyone other than whoever tampered with the ship's weapon systems. In fact he stubbornly refuses to consider it, insisting the gravity boots ARE still aboard Enterprise.

Spock has the ship's garbage bin searched in case the assassins tried to get rid of their incriminating footwear, surmising the boots will stick to their users like "tiberian bats." And yet everyone acts like they're back to square one once they actually recover the boots but can't pin them to whoever's locker they were concealed in.

Spock dismisses the idea that the assassins would've thrown the boots out an airlock for "all to see." How is this? Is someone going to walk by a window and happen to see them? Are they going to float back to the ship and attach to its hull? (Is the ship moving or stationary?) I think in the TNG world, the boots would pop up on Worf's or Data's sensors. But Nick Meyer's version of ST is VERY far from the TNG world. I think if the boots attached to the ship, they might actually remain unnoticed until it returned to port. Assuming they didn't drift off the hull once the ship started moving again.

Once they find traces of klingon blood, Chekov wants to fly back to Starfleet. NO Chekov: you've just proved the assassins did in fact not only beam over from Enterprise but returned to it as well. ("Hey Starfleet, the assassins beamed over from our ship!" ... "You don't say.") If returning to Starfleet were an option Spock should've done so already.

What happens if you fire a phaser aboard a starship in the TNG world? Does a light flash on Worf's console? Does "nothing" happen? (my default assumption would be that both scenarios have been shown to be true . If I re-watched all episodes I'd never remember to look for this specifically. I wouldn't hold this movie accountable either way).

What is "Interstellar Law"? Is it a Federation thing? Or something else? In almost any other version of ST (most notably Berman Trek) such a term would automatically be assumed to be a Federation thing. Christopher Plummer and John Schuck both seem to sneer as though it's a Federation thing. Are the klingons bound by it? And if they're not, can they really invoke it? On what terms do they get to hold Kirk and McCoy within their boarders and try them within their courtroom, as opposed to say, a more neutral site? Don't the klingons want everyone else who's accountable? Wouldn't they look like schmucks for settling on the two people that happen to already be within their grasp? Isn't that cowardly and weak behavior? Wouldn't that make the prosecution case against McCoy seem arbitrary, as if the court might've had to build an entirely different case had Spock beamed over instead? Do they want the peace process to proceed? Which side is the more desperate for peace, and therefore in the weaker position to negotiate for it? Does the Federation look like chumps for going along with this nonsense to keep the peace? Were the conspirators disappointed when they did?

Are there no other klingon ships between the Neutral Zone and Rura Penthe? Between the Neutral Zone and Khitomer? (Or did Enterprise stick wound inside Klingon space the whole while Spock was meld-interrogating Valeris?) Can you really cross over just by faking klingonese over radio to a listening post? In the TOS and TNG worlds, didn't the Romulans (it being a Romulan Neutral Zone in both those versions of ST) automatically intercept you the moment you crossed?

Camp Khitomer doesn't have a magnetic anti-transporter shield even though Rura Penthe does? They've scheduled a peace conference. One president has already been assassinated to try and stop the conference.

And people insist on finding problems with the 2009 movie?

(This is still my 4th favorite ST film, behind the 2009 movie. Feeling the need to pop in some Cliff Eidelman after typing all this).

 

[UssGlenn]

Chang wrought plenty of havoc with a cloaking effect that was ruined every time he fired, because the cloak went down for such a short time, not letting Kirk fire back. A quicker Starfleet targeting system, or a better Starfleet sensor array that reads the torpedo firing "pollution" off the cloak even between shots, would put a quick stop to Chang's antics

This is clearly the key to what made his cloak special in the first place. A normal cloaking devise takes too long to recover from being disrupted by a torpedo. The great breakthrough is that other than a little visible light from the torpedo being reflected at extremely close range, the field isn't disrupted enough for sensors to track it. The only thing to track is the actual exhaust from the engine, which is apparently so little on even standard ships that you need specialized equipment to find it.

 

[cgervasi]

He might have suspected Valaris (sp?) almost immediately, and wanted to both give her enough rope to hang herself and an opportunity to prove him wrong

Nimoy definitely telegraphs this in the way he portrays Spock looking at Valaris. I sense he strongly suspected Valaris was involved but could not prove anything.

Spock changes the subject when Valaris asks how they will be able to track Kirk. He may have not told anyone about the viridium patch, but I sense he particularly avoided telling Valaris anything because he did not trust her.

 

[cgervasi]

"Recorded Kirk"? Why would we think this?

The court quotes Kirk's log as the source for the recording. If the court could not have access to Kirk's logs, then this would have been brought up immediately in Kirk's defense.

Valeris merely tipped the Klingons off as to what to look for in Kirk's logs.

Kirk says he thinks Valaris' eavesdropping on him was responsible for the Klingons using his long against him in court. It was foreshadowed she was up to no good by having let herself into his quarters without announcing she was there. Kirk looks confused. I think he wondered if she was going to come on to him or what this was about. I don't she did that just to tell the Klingons what to look for if they should obtain his logs. I think she recorded him.

 

[Timo]

But why?

- Kirk never claims she would have recorded him. Kirk believes the comments were taken from the logs he made instead.
- Nobody in Trek uses or carries recording systems, as part of any plotline other than TNG "Identity Crisis" where dedicated nonstandard hardware (the headset) is used for the visuals. Valeris wasn't even carrying a tricorder.
- Valeris wouldn't need a recording device to reproduce a log Kirk had dictated.
- Valeris couldn't use a recording device to catch all of Kirk's dictating anyway, as she wouldn't understand the need to start recording until well after Kirk had spoken the fateful words about "never forgiving".
- No recording was presented to the court anyway.

I'm not seeing any problem here, unless we assume Valeris made a recording, in which case there's a ton of problems. So, why assume?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cgervasi]

I'm not seeing any problem here, unless we assume Valeris made a recording, in which case there's a ton of problems. So, why assume?

What was the meaning of the awkward encounter when she sneaked into his quarters? Maybe she sneaked in for other reasons, serendipitously overheard the log entry, and then either stole the log herself or told someone else in the conspiracy to look at the log entries. But if we say one of the conspirators had access to Kirk's personal logs, the conspirators could have reviewed the logs without her physically sneaking into his quarters.

 

[Timo]

I don't quite understand. What "sneaking"? She was about to enter Kirk's cabin, but overheard him speaking words that might serve the upcoming mission of framing him for the murder of the Klingon leader, so she waited a bit to hear if there was more.

Which was a tactical blunder on her part - she ought to have walked away if she wanted Kirk to think she had not overheard anything. But that, too, would have looked suspicious had she been caught in the act of turning around. So eventually knocking and entering probably served her purpose the best. Eavesdropping wasn't her intent or her all-important secret mission or anything. It was just that funny thing that happened to her on her way to Kirk's cabin, where she apparently just wanted to suck up to the boss.

Had Valeris not overheard Kirk's log, the Klingons would have had little reason to look into those. They didn't want Kirk accused of things he did or said, after all - they wanted Kirk fried for things he never did or said.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

Kirk says he thinks Valaris' eavesdropping on him was responsible for the Klingons using his long against him in court. It was foreshadowed she was up to no good by having let herself into his quarters without announcing she was there. Kirk looks confused. I think he wondered if she was going to come on to him or what this was about. I don't she did that just to tell the Klingons what to look for if they should obtain his logs. I think she recorded him.

Yes, her coming to see him in his quarters is strange. There was no necessity for it and she seemed like someone who wouldn't do anything unless it was the standard procedure for it or if she had an ulterior motive which was the case here.

 

[cgervasi]

I don't quite understand. What "sneaking"? She was about to enter Kirk's cabin, but overheard him speaking words that might serve the upcoming mission of framing him for the murder of the Klingon leader, so she waited a bit to hear if there was more.

I thought she opened the door and entered without knocking or announcing herself.

It was just that funny thing that happened to her on her way to Kirk's cabin, where she apparently just wanted to suck up to the boss.

I never thought of this. I always thought of "it's an honor to serve with you" as pretending to be sycophantic as a cover for what she was really doing. You're pointing out that she may have really gone to his quarters to say it was an honor serving with you and to help him with his bags, and overhearing him was just luck.

 

[David cgc]

I thought she opened the door and entered without knocking or announcing herself.

Kirk left his luggage propping the door open. Valeris carries it in (and shuts the door) when she steps inside.

 

[Timo]

Valeris would certainly be on a mission to discredit and frame Kirk from the get-go. She would have multiple tasks in the conspiracy, too - perhaps befitting the odd fact that she knows a lot about the conspiracy overall for a mere field operative. She'd be tasked at the very least with sabotaging the computers, planting physical evidence (by hiding it), and assassinating the assassins, and probably also with managing and hiding the transport. So it's quite possible she also had a task relating to Kirk's cabin - planting incriminating objects there, perhaps - or to Kirk's logs - planting incriminating stuff there through Kirk's very own terminal for greater impact, say.

But merely sucking up to the boss would also be a logical step for her to take. "I am - and always have been - your friend, Sir!" would be a good thing for your worst nemesis to establish from the start. And never mind all the psychological games Valeris could play with the already pissed-off Captain, preparing him for rash action or at least ill thought out words when the Klingons come.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[trekshark]

Thing is....the BoP used a transporter when cloaked all the time in IV.

Which is awkward for the theories put forward here, but also because it makes it a ridiculous weapon already....can’t fire when cloaked? Beam a torpedo wherever you like. Kidnap whoever you like, as long as shields are down...
Go straight to earth and beam troops, bombs, food vending machines, anything down, all you like.

Presumably they used the transporter while cloaked in Unification too

 

[David cgc]

Let's also recall that everything after Kirk goes over to Gorkon's ship is all improv by the conspiracy. They would've almost certainly been expecting Kirk to defend himself from Chang's "counterattack," which would've made everything into a total mess. The Federation would think the Klingons suddenly attacked their escort, and the Klingons would think the Federation had murdered their leader. There wouldn't be enough pieces left over to figure out who betrayed whom.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yes, her coming to see him in his quarters is strange. There was no necessity for it and she seemed like someone who wouldn't do anything unless it was the standard procedure for it or if she had an ulterior motive which was the case here.

Another possibility: She was feeling out Kirk to see if he might be sympathetic to the conspiracy's cause. After all, Kirk's son had been murdered by Klingons and Kirk was singularly unenthused about acting as Gorkon's escort. And the man had a reputation as a rulebreaker, even to the point of not obeying the rules about thrusters only while in Spacedock. Sounds like a prime candidate for the conspiracy to me. Maybe Admiral Cartwright ordered Valeris to observe Kirk and see if he might be turned to their cause. They probably ultimately decided that it was too risky. If they made an overture to Kirk and he didn't go along, the jig was up. Better to use him as an unknowing pasty.

Don't forget that Valeris was also reading Spock during her scene in his cabin to see if Spock might want to be a part of it, too. Maybe Spock was her second choice, or else she was too attached to her mentor to not think of bringing him in.

 

[cgervasi]

Another possibility: She was feeling out Kirk to see if he might be sympathetic to the conspiracy's cause. After all, Kirk's son had been murdered by Klingons and Kirk was singularly unenthused about acting as Gorkon's escort.

I love that idea! She was high enough up in the conspiracy that Carwright certainly would have told her Kirk my be sympathetic and that Cartwright felt bad Kirk was forced to do this peace mission when he agrees with Cartwright that this is not the time for showing weakness.

Everything she says fits into that.

• Mentions the rendezvous - Will he express frustration?
• Permission to speak candidly... and then never has anything really candid to say, as if she wants him to be candid
• "It's an honor to serve with you." - sycophantic and a possible opening to talk about his famous history fighting the Klingons.
• When he says you piloted well, instead of just saying thank you, she says she's always wanted to break the space dock speed limit like that. - They both break the rules. Maybe he'd be open to disobeying orders on this mission.

I do think the script writer may have been going for showing she was looking for allies of the conspiracy or dirt on people not in the conspiracy. Maybe after the scene ends, she says she tests him with a line similar to what she said to Spock: "a turning point has been reached..." fishing to see if Kirk would agree. I believe Kirk would dismiss it as a good leader dismisses grousing about their mission and turn it into a harmless joke about her being a good-looking over-zealous young lieutenant, which he seems to remember being himself long ago. So she stuck with the dirt she got, either through recording herself or pointing the Klingons to the log records.

But Kirk being smart, remembered the exchange and probably cogitated it in prison, where he told McCoy "you and I are nothing," and that the conspiracy to disrupt the peace mission was still in motion. When he got back to the ship, Spock said he had reason to believe conspirators were aboard the Enterprise. Kirk says, "I had a thought about that." I think the writers meant to indicate Kirk suspected Valaris.

 

[Timo]

Agreed on all the above, and very likely the writers intended all of it that way, too.

Let's also recall that everything after Kirk goes over to Gorkon's ship is all improv by the conspiracy.

Indeed - and it is just the right sort of conspiracy for winging it all the way through. Both Cartwright and Chang seem to count on a simple two-step: blast stuff, and wait for chaos to happen. Anything and everything happening after step one is fine, as it adds to step two.

We are still left wondering what the exact initial expectations of the cabalists were. But not needlessly worrying about it.

They would've almost certainly been expecting Kirk to defend himself from Chang's "counterattack," which would've made everything into a total mess. The Federation would think the Klingons suddenly attacked their escort, and the Klingons would think the Federation had murdered their leader. There wouldn't be enough pieces left over to figure out who betrayed whom.

Which is a bit problematic: how would evidence of men in Starfleet uniforms gunning down Gorkon reac the Klingon Empire then? And if this could not be counted on, why send those men to Gorkon in the first place, instead of just having the two ships blast each other to bits (with a little help from the cloaked ace in the sleeve)?

But the conspiracy is more robust if the assassins indeed assassinate. In that case, one or both ships can be allowed to survive. If Kirk fights and wins, Klingons don't need to see gun camera shots from the cloaked ship or anything in order to believe Kirkdunnit. If Kirk raises shields and warps away, Klingons have enough evidence to accuse him of sending in the gunmen. If Kirk surrenders... Well, the trial is fine, and an attempt by Starfleet to bust Kirk out would be even better. What could go wrong?

(Indeed, what did go wrong? Why is there no war? Gorkon did die, and there did occur an assassination attempt at Khitomer. What defused the situation? The sudden appearance of that hunted criminal Kirk, gun in hand? Basically, the only thing that mattered was Azetbur not yelling "HIv!"... So why did the assassin aim at the UFP President when the Chancellor was the crucial target? Did Cartwright just not understand the dynamics of the situation?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cgervasi]

So why did the assassin aim at the UFP President when the Chancellor was the crucial target? Did Cartwright just not understand the dynamics of the situation?

I always thought it was because the hawkish elements of the Klingon Empire were already riled up by the assassination of their leader. They wanted to do the same to the UFP.