Something I’d like to see in SNW: Cardassia!

[jackoverfull]

I was thinking that we know from several 24th century sources that before the military took over after a period of decadence and disarray Cardassia Prime hosted a thriving, artistically-oriented society, we also know that the tookover happened relatively recently, as some older character lived through it, therefore it’s likely that in the mid-23rd century the Cardassian society is still in the full of its glory.

I think it could be interesting if SNW showed us a bit of such bright society, especially knowing that it’s destined to fall.

There is no canon date for the first contact between the federation and the cardassians, books put it in the 2290s, but they are not canon and there is no reason it couldn’t have happened earlier.

 

[Tuskin38]

The poet Iloja of Prim was exiled on Vulcan in the early 23rd Century.

So they know of the species at least. Whether they know where they are is another story, probably depends on how much Iloja revealed.

 

[The Wormhole]

The poet Iloja of Prim was exiled on Vulcan in the early 23rd Century.

Twenty-second, actually.

 

[jackoverfull]

Good to know, thanks.

 

[Tuskin38]

Twenty-second, actually.

23rd. Tobin Dax met him, and Tobin was the host after Lela, Lela died in the 2226.

Yes, in the novels Tobin was a host in the 22nd Century, that's a continuity error no one caught.

 

[Dukhat]

I was thinking that we know from several 24th century sources that before the military took over after a period of decadence and disarray Cardassia Prime hosted a thriving, artistically-oriented society, we also know that the tookover happened relatively recently, as some older character lived through it, therefore it’s likely that in the mid-23rd century the Cardassian society is still in the full of its glory.

I think it could be interesting if SNW showed us a bit of such bright society, especially knowing that it’s destined to fall.

There is no canon date for the first contact between the federation and the cardassians, books put it in the 2290s, but they are not canon and there is no reason it couldn’t have happened earlier.

If they show Cardassians, I doubt it’ll be anything like that. They’ll probably just be token bad guys like they’ve always been. I don’t think that Trek scriptwriters these days are worried all that much about maintaining continuity from throwaway lines from older shows.

 

[The Wormhole]

23rd. Tobin Dax met him, and Tobin was the host after Lela, Lela died in the 2228.

Huh, after consulting Memory Alpha and episode transcripts, I see there is no definite answer, but they tend to side with 23rd. Thing is, I know the Enterprise novels feature both Tobin Dax and Iloja of Prim in the 22nd century, specifically in the 2160s, which is what I based my comment on.

 

[Tuskin38]

Huh, after consulting Memory Alpha and episode transcripts, I see there is no definite answer, but they tend to side with 23rd. Thing is, I know the Enterprise novels feature both Tobin Dax and Iloja of Prim in the 22nd century, specifically in the 2160s, which is what I based my comment on.

There is a computer screen bio that says Lela died in 2226, that is why M-A goes with 23rd. Though it is barely legible

I added that novel bit to my post, but you must have seen it before I did.

If they show Cardassians, I doubt it’ll be anything like that. They’ll probably just be token bad guys like they’ve always been. I don’t think that Trek scriptwriters these days are worried all that much about maintaining continuity from throwaway lines from older shows.

They do it all the time, so I'm not sure why you say that.

Like the final episode of Season 1 has a plot point referencing Klingon lore only heard in a drinking song in DS9 that was only sung in Klingon for crying out loud lol.

 

[Dukhat]

They do it all the time, so I'm not sure why you say that.

Like the final episode of Season 1 has a plot point referencing Klingon lore only heard in a drinking song in DS9 that was only sung in Klingon for crying out loud lol.

I’m not saying it will never happen. I’m just saying it’s highly unlikely.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I was thinking that we know from several 24th century sources that before the military took over after a period of decadence and disarray Cardassia Prime hosted a thriving, artistically-oriented society, we also know that the tookover happened relatively recently, as some older character lived through it, therefore it’s likely that in the mid-23rd century the Cardassian society is still in the full of its glory.

I think it could be interesting if SNW showed us a bit of such bright society, especially knowing that it’s destined to fall.

There is no canon date for the first contact between the federation and the cardassians, books put it in the 2290s, but they are not canon and there is no reason it couldn’t have happened earlier.

Think that's actually very likely, considering that Pike was revealed to have been getting a medal by the Cardassians some time before Season 2 of Discovery

I could actually imagine that the Cardassians were either Federation members or allies at that time. Especially if one considers that they were serving a drink called Cardassian Sunrise at approximately the same time on Earth in the KT

 

[Dukhat]

Think that's actually very likely, considering that Pike was revealed to have been getting a medal by the Cardassians some time before Season 2 of Discovery

I could actually imagine that the Cardassians were either Federation members or allies at that time. Especially if one considers that they were serving a drink called Cardassian Sunrise at approximately the same time on Earth in the KT

All Pike received was the ‘Legate’s Crest of Valor.’ Only fandom speculated that it had something to do with the Cardassians because of the word ‘legate.’ There’s no evidence that was actually the case.

Cardassian Sunrise: The Cardassians didn’t serve the drink. The drink was just named after them.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

The Cardassians didn’t serve the drink. The drink was just named after them.

Sorry, bad choice of words. Didn't wanted to imply that the drink was served by Cardassians, only that there was a drink named after them.

That seems to have been another hint that they were a known species at that time and at least in contact with the Federation.

But perhaps it was simply a miss spelling and the drink was actually a Kardashian Sunrise

 

[Lord Garth]

If TNG was chopped off after three seasons, like TOS, we never would've heard about Cardassians in the TNG Era either. I figure the Federation knew about the Cardassians but without the Border Wars or competing interests, they didn't have much reason to interact with each other. The only real potential continuity glitch is that the Federation doesn't like to befriend conquerors.

The Klingons had to give up their Old Ways after TUC in order the groundwork could be laid for them to become allies before TNG. "The Way of the Warrior" then reinforced that the Klingons no longer conquered planets. Like Worf said, "If my people return to the Old Ways, no one will be safe." They'd given them up. So the Federation doesn't like to befriend hostile powers.

Which would mean that if Pike got a medal of valor from Cardassia, and he accepted it, then the Cardassians weren't conquerors in the Mid-23rd Century and ended up taking a turn for the worse by the Early-24th Century. By which time there are border disputes and reasons for them and the Federation to go to war.

I lean towards the Cardassians would be a neutral race that the Federation rarely deals with, if ever.

BUT, if they ever make a series that takes place between TUC and TNG (like a series about Picard in his younger days), then the Cardassians would be my first choice to have as the main adversary. With the Klingons crippled so badly and the Romulans back in hiding, it creates the perfect vacuum to focus on them.

 

[SalyutBuran]

If they show Cardassians, I doubt it’ll be anything like that. They’ll probably just be token bad guys like they’ve always been. I don’t think that Trek scriptwriters these days are worried all that much about maintaining continuity from throwaway lines from older shows.

I'd argue cardassians are pretty much the most refined villians in fiction.

To me Cardassians represent a species of neuro diverse people who were not capable of mammalian empathy. They as cold blooded creatures based on a lizard/pre mammal neurology were not capable of our form empathy. Closer to autism than psychopathy.

To describe them as fascist to me is to assume they have mammalian empathy. When there isn't a lot of evidence they do. In my mind they represent a kind of collectivism. Like a pile of iguanas piling up on top each trying to survive the cold night. They worship the hive, not as a political theory, but as a form of social cohesion.

Cardassia/the hive must survive because without it no one is safe.

Very few Cardassian characters seem to have any sense of reflexive empathy. In my understanding they tend to thrive on an over arrousal of the parts of the brain that create fear, and rely on a the collective to give them safety.

You can see this with Garak, he has obviously done absolutely horrid acts with little concern for empathy, but he is driven by an absolute love of his society. Just as deluded folks like Gul Dukat are driven by a love for the collective and a suspicion of anyone who might try to endanger it.

They are obviously capable of good moral action, but generally it seems in context of the hive.

Ammoral behavior is bad because it drags down the collective, not because it drags down the individual.

To me Cardassions are unable to be confined to a ideology.

Mind you if they are included, they'll be reduced to ignorant people who need federation values to keep them from the temptations of fascism.

Ignore the idea that an alien species might have a diverse neurology.

 

[DEWLine]

I don't think we can afford to ignore that idea.
Further, the idea of establishing a further backstory to Cardassia and its Union appeals to me. Put a writing team of Behr, Wolfe, McCormack, and others to be named on the project.

 

[Tim Thomason]

All Pike received was the ‘Legate’s Crest of Valor.’ Only fandom speculated that it had something to do with the Cardassians because of the word ‘legate.’ There’s no evidence that was actually the case.

It was speculated to be a Cardassian award because it was given to a Cardassian (Crell Moset) in the 24th century.

Pike also received the Proficient Service Medallion (only also awarded to Gul Darhe'el in the 2350s), so that's two apparent Cardassian awards that Pike received.

Of course, he also somehow received the Carrington Award, which was a high honor for medical doctors that Bashir lost out to in early DS9. Half the awards were only seen in Okudagrams and removed when they remastered TNG.

The obvious answer is that the guy who wrote Pike's award list looked at the list of Medals and Awards on Memory Alpha and just copy and pasted a bunch randomly without any consideration to what they mean.

That's also why they referenced the River Skral (from The Way of the Warrior's drinking song) in Discovery: because it was the only Klingon river on Memory Alpha. They rummage through the site when they need a name or a list, which can be good continuity, but does shrink the universe down a bit too much. Qo'noS can use more rivers and Pike probably could've used some distinctive 23rd century awards.

 

[Dukhat]

The obvious answer is that the guy who wrote Pike's award list looked at the list of Medals and Awards on Memory Alpha and just copy and pasted a bunch randomly without any consideration to what they mean.

That happened in ENT too, where the scriptwriter would just randomly grab alien race names from TOS without much forethought.

 

[fireproof78]

So we work with it. Or ignore it.

 

[Sci]

I don't really like the idea of the Federation having regular contact with the Cardassians in the 23rd Century. I think I prefer the idea that the Federation didn't have regular contact with them until the 24th Century -- it helps make the galaxy seem like a big place where contact with some species didn't occur until after the UFP grew much larger over the centuries. I'm open to the idea of first contact with the Cardassian government occurring in the late 23rd Century (so still post-SNW), but I think regular contact should be a 24th Century thing.

 

[Lord Garth]

It seems like most of the Major Powers in the Alpha Quadrant are relatively nearby and know each other well. Earth was a Johnny Come Lately to the Interstellar Community and was the Upstart Kid who started the Federation.

At the same time, Deep Space Nine is near Cardassian space and the station is called Deep Space Nine for a reason.

Putting those two things together: I think the Federation could've known about the Cardassians as early as the 22nd Century (yes, I said it, and bear in mind I'm a non-fan of ENT), but wouldn't have had much reason to deal with them until their borders started butting heads with the Cardassians', leading to the Border Wars.

I don't think we'll see the Cardassians in SNW though. At least not prominently. Because the title of the series is Strange New Worlds and even if the Cardassians might be "new" in Pike's time, they're not new for us. First encountering races we already know sounds too much like retreading Enterprise's territory.

I think they'll first encounter races that they'll spotlight here, then have on Discovery or Picard or Whatever. They won't have to introduce or highlight these new aliens on those shows because they'll have already done the groundwork on Strange New Worlds. Or vice versa: they'll use SNW to highlight new background races in DSC that we haven't gotten to know.