Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously)

[Sci]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

And, while it may be easy to imagine that our real-life, honest-to-gosh governments have plans for "any conceivable scenario," from an armed alien invasion to a giant prehistoric lizard attack to a replica of the Titanic crashing into Buckingham Palace... y'know, I rather doubt it.

Okay, that's not the best analogy. The Federation knew the Borg were real. They knew the Borg Collective was more than large and powerful enough to wipe out the Federation easily if it chose to. They knew they'd proven themselves a serious threat to the Collective once they knocked out their transwarp hub. They knew they'd almost been destroyed by the Dominion, so they knew they weren't indestructible.

So from their perspective, "the Borg invade en masse and wipe us all out" was not a remote threat to the degree that "Godzilla rampages through New York" or "the Moon splits in two and rains down meteors" would be, but was more on the level of "Russia launches all its nuclear missiles toward us" -- not a pie-in-the-sky threat, but a very solid, realistic worst-case scenario. It's just not credible to suggest that they never even thought about the possibility.

The United States government has known for years that there is a serious risk of nuclear weapons from the former Soviet Union or other states falling into the hands of terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda, for whom such a weapon would be a holy grail. Yet if you read up on what the government has been doing about it -- a good book dealing with the issue would be The Way of the World by Ron Suskind -- the U.S. has virtually no plan on how to stop it and is doing comparatively little to prevent it.

The U.S. government knew for years that the levees protecting New Orleans were weakening and badly in need of repair from the Army Corps of Engineers, and that a Category 5 hurricane could overwhelm the levees. That didn't stop the government from decreasing funding for levee maintenance and for the A.C.E. in the year prior to Hurricane Katrina.

Knowing something is likely doesn't mean that governments actually put together plans to deal with them. Unfortunately, putting their heads in the sand and hoping it goes away is just as probable of a response.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Which brings me to another point. Did the Borg utilise ALL their forces for the "Federation Offensive" or did they have just as many ships back in the DQ? I would guess that after Janeway blew up their transwarp hub they decided to get rid of the thorn in their side and used their extensive DQ facilities to build a specific invasion fleet, hence the gap between attacks in the AQ. And prior to the invasion, they sent a cube in to assess Starfleet's current strength, but after losing contact with the cube they went ahead with the annihilation.

Not quite. The Borg occupied a volume far vaster than the Federation, and probably had hundreds of thousands of cubes in total. The problem was, after the transwarp hub was trashed, they had no way of getting to the Federation in less than several years, maybe something on the order of a decade. So they couldn't invade until they found a shortcut, namely the Caeliar conduits.

The cube that attacked in Resistance and Before Dishonor was from one of the Borg's far-flung offshoot populations, which were cut off from the main Collective when the transwarp hub went down. That's why they were growing a Queen in Resistance -- because they'd been cut off from the main Queen and had activated a backup protocol to create a new one. That's also why the assimilated Einstein's discovery of an advanced form of slipstream propulsion in Greater Than the Sum didn't get back to the main Collective, and why the mission in that novel was to keep them from reaching the main Collective with that knowledge.

Knowing something is likely doesn't mean that governments actually put together plans to deal with them. Unfortunately, putting their heads in the sand and hoping it goes away is just as probable of a response.

Yes, of course. But that just supports what I'm saying: that lack of a plan for a particular contingency does not mean that the contingency was never imagined at all. It was suggested above that Starfleet didn't have a plan for the scenario of a mass, simultaneous Borg attack on the UFP's worlds because they'd never imagined such a thing was possible. I'm saying that's illogical, because it's not that hard to imagine. I'm saying that the reason for their lack of a plan has to be something other than such a gross failure of imagination.

 

[Vestboy]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I took a military history class back in college, and one of the points that stuck with me was that the US Government does, in fact, have scenarios and plans for EVERY single contingency their people could conceive. No matter how absurd, including alien invasions.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

So I picked this up since it seemed to be receiving good reviews.

I got to page 66 and just couldn't read any further. Here we bring up what went on between Picard and LaForge in the last moments of the Borg conflict. I was really hoping the author would've avoided it. It wasn't that I find it poorly written or anything as I normally like Bill Leisner's work.

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

 

[Sxottlan]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

Why's that?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

Why's that?

I don't find them "relatable", I guess is the word I'm looking for. I think Roddenberry really erred when he tried to show us a perfect humanity. Just real bland with a warped sense of morality.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

Why's that?

I don't find them "relatable", I guess is the word I'm looking for. I think Roddenberry really erred when he tried to show us a perfect humanity. Just real bland with a warped sense of morality.

To each his own, I know several people who remind me of the characters.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

So I picked this up since it seemed to be receiving good reviews.

I got to page 66 and just couldn't read any further. Here we bring up what went on between Picard and LaForge in the last moments of the Borg conflict. I was really hoping the author would've avoided it. It wasn't that I find it poorly written or anything as I normally like Bill Leisner's work.

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

Could I ask what your thoughts were on pages 1-65? And would it help if I told you that after that Picard-La Forge scene, the topic of the thalaron weapon never comes up again?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

So I picked this up since it seemed to be receiving good reviews.

I got to page 66 and just couldn't read any further. Here we bring up what went on between Picard and LaForge in the last moments of the Borg conflict. I was really hoping the author would've avoided it. It wasn't that I find it poorly written or anything as I normally like Bill Leisner's work.

It just reminds me why I've come to dislike these characters over the years.

Could I ask what your thoughts were on pages 1-65? And would it help if I told you that after that Picard-La Forge scene, the topic of the thalaron weapon never comes up again?

Thanks for taking the time to reply Mr. Leisner.

Pages 1-65 were well written but didn't really catch me. I thought the first pages dealing with the Risa survivors weren't really necessary. But I had already read A Singular Destiny, so maybe they were important for folks who skipped that book. The appearance of Borash gave me another irritating case of 'small universe syndrome'. The desk bit seemed silly to me...

Some of it is the fact that outside of Chen none of the new characters seem to be more than mere cardboard cutouts. And this isn't just Losing the Peace, this pretty much goes for the way the characters are written in all of the TNG relaunch books.

Then there is just this warped sense of morality in TNG that goes all the way back to Pen Pals. They will risk their careers to keep six hundred Ba'ku from being moved and yet refuse to build an illegal weapon that has the potential to save hundreds of billions of lives. When they had no problem using transphasic torpedoes that, if I understand correctly, would violate both the Temporal Prime Directive and the Khitomer Accords ban on sub-space weapons.

Losing the Peace is sitting on my bookshelf next to my other Star Trek book and I'm sure I'll finish it someday.

 

[STR]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Some of it is the fact that outside of Chen none of the new characters seem to be more than mere cardboard cutouts. And this isn't just Losing the Peace, this pretty much goes for the way the characters are written in all of the TNG relaunch books.

Oh, they're far worse than that. Two dimensional can at least still be entertaining. Worf was two dimensional until the whole "Duras framed my family" bit. However, he still kicked people's teeth in, and could be counted on to make an overly aggressive, judgmental, yet humorous, comment.

The TNG relaunch characters are a different adjective: boring. Kadohata has kids and lives away from home. Okay, fine start. What else? *cricket chirps* She's "Data's hand picked successor"? Cool, what made her so special? *akward silence* She's a one paragraph story. Miranda Kadohata leaving the E-E was the best part of the whole book. I fist pumped when she left. I never EVER EVER have any kind of reaction while reading aside from a small smile when there's a good joke. She was that boring, although I almost missed her leaving because by the time I got to LtP I had a habit of skipping past the mandatory (and sleep inducing) Kodahata family moment. I pray to the gods of Pocket Books she stays home and gets replaced by someone with...well...anything more than two kids. If I want to hear a story about how a mom doesn't spend enough time with her kids, I'll ask the woman living in the unit below me, and I sure wouldn't pay money for it.

Elfiki is even worse. She's a really hot woman that complains about how guys are always hitting on her. Boo hoo. I'm not even going to start playing the galaxy's smallest violin here, because I've worked with someone like that. I would have paid good money-McCoy style-to shut her up, both the fictional and non-fictional people. I. don't. care. nor. do. I. want. to. know.

Finally, there's Choudurry. I understand her, she's very zen and calm. Fine, except we're in Star Trek here, and if we want calm, cool people, we have Vulcans. We don't need the crew to be humans in order to identify with them. In fact, there's way too many humans on the bridge of the Federation's flagship. Gimme a...oh...I don't know, some kind of alien. Throw a full-blooded Romulan on there, make him a the child of a defector. Throw in a huge twist, like the guy is the child of the man who blew Worf's family to sto-vo-kor (sp?). Oh noes! Shock! Drama! (Yeah, that's a sledgehammer-to-pound-a-nail idea there, but point is to think outside of safe)

Chen works as a protegee to Picard and as the anti-Vulcan Vulcan. The whole broken-family thing is a nice angle I don't see to often in Trek. The bitterness, the resentment, but, we're all we each have left. Good stuff there. The female Vulcan counselor was good too. It would have been great to see her and Chen interact, but she was blown to pieces by Borg, so that's not happening.

I will give on exception, Leybenzon. I liked him. Hard on himself and his troops on the clock, life of the party afterward. Actually, scratch the first part, he was the life of the party, the TNG crew needed someone like that. If he's also Worf-Lite (TM) and kicks teeth in, all the better, Worf can do that as much in his job as #1. Except...they killed him too, and made him look like an idiot in the process.

 

[Cybersnark]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

See, I actually like the new crew (though I'm eager for future stories to flesh them out more --what we're seeing now is the character-development equivalent of "season 1" characters).

Kadohata shows a good balance of by-the-book experience and human compassion. The note that she'd rather be a scientist (but ended up with second-officer as a full-time job) hints at how she might play in the future; I'm eager to see her come back. Having her family off-ship is something Star Trek hasn't really dealt with before (the nearest was when Jake stayed on Terok Nor during the Dominion War, but he was an independent adult, not a babe-in arms).

Elfiki is clearly a practical joker to match Chen. She may be Muslim, but that hasn't been directly established (GTtS left it ambiguous). She hasn't really had a chance to shine yet (she's mostly been doing the science stuff in the background while everyone else carries the drama). Hopefully future stories will run with her.

Choudhury's state of zen is interesting precisely because it's not the Vulcan Kohlinar --she is highly emotional, she just finds other ways to channel them. I also appreciate having a security chief who doesn't "kick teeth in," something even Tuvok tended to resort to. Choudhury isn't just a fighter, she's a strategic thinker and philosoher, and that's a combination we haven't really seen in a tactical chief.

I am, of course, a charter member of the T'Ryssa Chen fanclub. I love the idea of a goofball genki-girl character in Star Trek, and I love the surrogate father/daughter dynamic she's developing with Picard (he could use someone around to loosen him up). Much more fun than the father/well-behaved son dynamic with Wesley.

I also love Hegol Den, and hope he features more in future stories. It's cool to have a counsellor who seems to be near Picard's age --less a psychoanalyst than a friendly uncle type. Plus, his being a Bajoran lets writers bring spirituality into the story in a way the TNG storyline hasn't really explored.

Leybenzon, OTOH, never struck me as more than a pompous hardcase. T'Lana was great fun though (basically a Star Trek version of Paris Gellar from the Gilmore Girls ), and I am sorry to see her go.

EDIT: typo

 

[John Clark]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Just finished it last night. I believe it's the only story I've read so far by Mr Leisner.

I thought it was a good read and do like most of the characters introduced over the relaunch. I do hope Kadohata comes back at some point

 

[Christopher]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Choudhury's state of zen is interesting precisely because it's not the Vulcan Kohlinar --she is highly emotional, she just finds other ways to channel them. I also appreciate having a security chief who doesn't "kick teeth in," something even Tuvok tended to resort to. Choudhury isn't just a fighter, she's a strategic thinker and philosoher, and that's a combination we haven't really seen in a tactical chief.

Well, she's Hindu rather than Zen Buddhist, but otherwise, yeah, that was my general idea behind her. Too often, Trek falls into the stereotype of "security chief = soldier." As I see it, except in a combat situation, starship security is more like police work: to protect and serve. It should be about preventing and defusing conflict, keeping the peace, not just diving in with guns blazing.

I am, of course, a charter member of the T'Ryssa Chen fanclub. I love the idea of a goofball genki-girl character in Star Trek, and I love the surrogate father/daughter dynamic she's developing with Picard (he could use someone around to loosen him up). Much more fun than the father/well-behaved son dynamic with Wesley.

Yeah... I figured that since Picard was about to become a father, he needed a surrogate daughter who'd pose a real challenge to him. His experience with Wesley wouldn't have prepared him for the terrible twos.

 

[JD]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

See, I actually like the new crew (though I'm eager for future stories to flesh them out more --what we're seeing now is the character-development equivalent of "season 1" characters).

Kadohata shows a good balance of by-the-book experience and human compassion. The note that she'd rather be a scientist (but ended up with second-officer as a full-time job) hints at how she might play in the future; I'm eager to see her come back. Having her family off-ship is something Star Trek hasn't really dealt with before (the nearest was when Jake stayed on Terok Nor during the Dominion War, but he was an independent adult, not a babe-in arms).

Elfiki is clearly a practical joker to match Chen. She may be Muslim, but that hasn't been directly established (GTtS left it ambiguous). She hasn't really had a chance to shine yet (she's mostly been doing the science stuff in the background while everyone else carries the drama). Hopefully future stories will run with her.

Choudhury's state of zen is interesting precisely because it's not the Vulcan Kohlinar --she is highly emotional, she just finds other ways to channel them. I also appreciate having a security chief who doesn't "kick teeth in," something even Tuvok tended to resort to. Choudhury isn't just a fighter, she's a strategic thinker and philosoher, and that's a combination we haven't really seen in a tactical chief.

I am, of course, a charter member of the T'Ryssa Chen fanclub. I love the idea of a goofball genki-girl character in Star Trek, and I love the surrogate father/daughter dynamic she's developing with Picard (he could use someone around to loosen him up). Much more fun than the father/well-behaved son dynamic with Wesley.

I also love Hegol Den, and hope he features more in future stories. It's cool to have a counsellor who seems to be near Picard's age --less a psychoanalyst than a friendly uncle type. Plus, his being a Bajoran lets writers bring spirituality into the story in a way the TNG storyline hasn't really explored.

Leybenzon, OTOH, never struck me as more than a pompous hardcase. T'Lana was great fun though (basically a Star Trek version of Paris Gellar from the Gilmore Girls ), and I am sorry to see her go.

EDIT: typo

That's actually pretty close to the way I feel about the characters. I'm just really hoping that we get more development for Elfiki, what little bits we've gotten with her have been pretty interesting. Especially the stuff with her and Trys in the beginning of LTP, it seems to me like they could become a really fun duo along the lines of Bashir/O'Brien or Paris/Kim.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Just finished it last night. I believe it's the only story I've read so far by Mr Leisner.

I thought it was a good read and do like most of the characters introduced over the relaunch. I do hope Kadohata comes back at some point

Thanks, and if you enjoyed it, by all means, go out and buy my other stuff! Buy three copies each!

 

[Pigboy]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Poor Risa! The DS9 episode 'Let he who without sin' wasn't the greatest but why did they have to do that to Arandis? Where is everyone gonna go for a good time? Maybe they will terraform it so they can all get back. Horga'hns must be rare nowadays. I would have liked to hear more snippets about the state of the Federation, but a good character development book.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Poor Risa! ... Where is everyone gonna go for a good time?

Wrigley's Pleasure Planet, Argelius, or Quark's.

 

[Cybersnark]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Poor Risa! ... Where is everyone gonna go for a good time?

Wrigley's Pleasure Planet, Argelius, or Quark's.

In related news, Quark has just announced a 10% discount for anyone from Risa.

(He did this immediately after raising all prices by 20%. )

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I would have liked to hear more snippets about the state of the Federation, but a good character development book.

Glad you liked the character development, and be sure to pick up A Singular Destiny for more about the state of the Federation at large.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Poor Risa! ... Where is everyone gonna go for a good time?

Wrigley's Pleasure Planet, Argelius, or Quark's.

Didn't Argelius ban all casino gambling though? I think it was an SCE story which said that.