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Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously)

Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Starfleet lost two many admirals in the Breen attack to allow even one to be permanently flitting around the galaxy, disobeying orders to do what he thinks is right.

But he's only disobeying orders because he's a captain. Once he was the guy calling the shots, he couldn't very well be any more insubordinate. :p

Actually, wasn't part of the point of offering Picard the promotion exactly that? He'd kept disobeying orders for the past year, and had kept being right, so they were going to just let him call the shots from now on so they didn't have to keep finding ways to not bust him for ignoring his superiors all the time.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Starfleet lost two many admirals in the Breen attack to allow even one to be permanently flitting around the galaxy, disobeying orders to do what he thinks is right.

But he's only disobeying orders because he's a captain. Once he was the guy calling the shots, he couldn't very well be any more insubordinate. :p

Actually, wasn't part of the point of offering Picard the promotion exactly that? He'd kept disobeying orders for the past year, and had kept being right, so they were going to just let him call the shots from now on so they didn't have to keep finding ways to not bust him for ignoring his superiors all the time.
Jellico once said that giving orders to Calhoun was a dicey proposition at best, since he's a maverick--worse than Kirk. But Picard seems to be heading in that direction. He'll follow orders as long as they fit within his own moral code, but as soon as they don't, he disregards them and does what he thinks is right...which he invariably is, much to our surprise (not).
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He'll follow orders as long as they fit within his own moral code, but as soon as they don't, he disregards them and does what he thinks is right...
Which order did Picard disregard in LtP because it didn't fit within his moral code?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He'll follow orders as long as they fit within his own moral code, but as soon as they don't, he disregards them and does what he thinks is right...
Which order did Picard disregard in LtP because it didn't fit within his moral code?
Taking the Centauri Governor and Risian President to Earth, instead going to Pacifica to help his wife, thereby kidnapping two world leaders. You will not convince me this time that there was no closer starship than the Enterprise to the Taurus Reach. Crusher called him because she knew he would be her white knight, regardless of orders...She played him, whether consciously or not.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He'll follow orders as long as they fit within his own moral code, but as soon as they don't, he disregards them and does what he thinks is right...
Which order did Picard disregard in LtP because it didn't fit within his moral code?
Taking the Centauri Governor and Risian President to Earth, instead going to Pacifica to help his wife, thereby kidnapping two world leaders. You will not convince me this time that there was no closer starship than the Enterprise to the Taurus Reach. Crusher called him because she knew he would be her white knight, regardless of orders...She played him, whether consciously or not.

Denevan President, actually.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He'll follow orders as long as they fit within his own moral code, but as soon as they don't, he disregards them and does what he thinks is right...
Which order did Picard disregard in LtP because it didn't fit within his moral code?
Taking the Centauri Governor and Risian President to Earth, instead going to Pacifica to help his wife, thereby kidnapping two world leaders.
Picard was never ordered to take Barrile to Earth. Nor was he ordered to take Denevan President Tiernan to Earth, since a civilian leader of a planet doesn't have that authority over a Starfleet officer. And in neither case was Picard's "moral code" a factor.

Here's what Picard was ordered to do:
*search and rescue: an order he did carry out, with his patrols, with the use of the Elfiki-Rosado search protocols, and the rescue of the Libra. Never did he refuse to carry out this order, and he publicly scolded Worf for suggesting the order was unimportant. Never did he suggest that aiding Borg survivors was contrary to his "moral code".
*go to Alpha Centauri to help deal with their violence: again, an order Picard made every effort to obey, only the crisis had already been dealt with, and the local civilian leadship refused Starfleet's assistance. By the time Crusher's call came in, there was nothing for Picard to do. Once more, I'm at a loss to understand where "moral codes" play into this -- unless one argues that he had a moral obligation, after hearing Barrile's threat of secession, to not simply dismiss it.

You will not convince me this time that there was no closer starship than the Enterprise to the Taurus Reach. Crusher called him because she knew he would be her white knight, regardless of orders...She played him, whether consciously or not.
What a disturbingly misogynistic statement. Crusher "played" Picard to preserve the lives and well-being of 80,000 homeless refugees? The brazen hussy!!

Seriously, what do you think Will Riker would have done different if he were still Picard's XO, and heading the Pacifica mission? We know Crusher already contacted Barash, and was told by him another ship couldn't be sent for two weeks. (Yes, there well could have been other ships closer to Pacifica, but none Barash -- or Crusher -- had the authority to pull off their assignments.) Exactly who else is Commander Crusher going to contact, if not her commanding officer?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Only order Picard really disregarded was a standing order, something along the lines of "Refrain from kidnapping world leaders" :lol:
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He didn't kidnap the guy, he just took him to his destination by an extremely roundabout route. ;)
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

He didn't kidnap the guy, he just took him to his destination by an extremely roundabout route. ;)

Well, let's get real here: Picard did abduct the Governor of Alpha Centauri. Which, let's face is, is a pretty significant violation of Starfleet and Federation law.

Now, having said that, was it all for the best? Sure. The Governor chose not to press charges, after all, and was in the end thankful that he had been forced to look past his own selfishness. Abducting the Governor of Alpha Centauri may have helped save the social fabric of the Federation and preserve its political unity.

But no reasonable person can say that it's not an abduction when you refuse to allow someone to disembark from your ship and force them to travel to another planet halfway across the Federation (especially since taking another five minutes to let him beam down would not have harmed the Enterprise's mission at Pacifica at all).
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Okay, but there is a distinction between "disobeying orders" and violating the law. Laws are determined by civilian authorities. They're not the same thing as orders. Bill was questioning the allegation that Picard disregarded orders.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Okay, but there is a distinction between "disobeying orders" and violating the law. Laws are determined by civilian authorities. They're not the same thing as orders. Bill was questioning the allegation that Picard disregarded orders.

Fair enough. Though violating either one can get you court-martialed.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

General 'following of the law' has got to be part of the starfleet general orders, though, no? Certainly covered in their version of the Code of Military Justice, at least.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

There's little debating that Picard's abduction of Barrile was illegal. Or that he took a huge risk that could have blown up in his face had the governor turned out to have no heart whatsoever. And I'll admit, Picard's decision to leave AC before Barrile beamed off came across on the page as being made too lightly and flippantly.

But, Picard did what he did knowing and fully expecting that Akaar would keelhaul him, and he stood ready to accept the consequences even after Barrile made his address.

What Picard does in dragging Barrile to Pacifica is to show him the extent of the situation the Federation faces. Barrile was, to put not too fine a point on things, being a self-centered asshole, who couldn't see past his own nose. Picard realized, like George Marshall says in the opening epigram, that Barrile's distance from the worst troubles was keeping him from comprehending what was going on beyond his little universe, and that the idiot needed to have some sense slapped into him. Because, to invoke Marshall again, the whole world of the future depended on proper judgments being made.

Picard does not violate orders or laws on whims, just because he disagrees with them. And the suggestion that he breaks rules because Beverly has him tightly wrapped around her little finger is nothing but offensive sexist twaddle.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I enjoyed Losing the Peace, though I was very bummed to see Miranda not return to the Enterprise. The command crew in Losing the Peace felt like the right one...and then out goes Miranda. I feel that the positions that members of the command crew hold is basically a revolving door.

Look at the position of Chief of Security:

-We're told that Lt. Sara Nave was briefly the Security cheif after Vale left
-We had Lt. Lionardo Battaglia until he was assimilated by the Borg.
-We had Zelik Leybenzon until he was transfered out...and then killed.
-Then we finally get the right person for the job in Jasminder Choudhury

Did we really need to go through that many Cheif of Security's to get to Jasminder?

Then the character of T'Lana is introduced as the ships Head Counselor. She sticks around for a while but then leaves (and I believe killed off in one of the Destiny novels, correct?). Now we have Hegol Den, a character I hope gets expanded and sticks around for a while.

I really liked the character of Miranda Kadohata and hopefully she's only temporay gone from the Enterprise.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

^Miranda is not definitely gone for good. The next TNG novel isn't out until January 2011 and it supposed to take place in 2382. That's plenty of time for Miranda to come back to the E-E from Pacifica and not be missed by us at all ;)...or maybe she won't. We'll see in 16-17 months :techman:
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

All right, I guess I should apologise for suggesting that Crusher played Picard, but as for Barash not being able to order a ship to get to Pacifica post-haste, a medical/humanitarian emergency--which is what Pacifica was when she asked Picard to assist--trumps all orders, does it not?
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

The entirety of explored space was a medical/humanitarian emergency at the moment.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

I finished the novel on Tuesday and I found it to be extraordinarily well written.

William, KUDOS to you. I finished the novel in basically one day from picking it up.

I thought the characters were well written and I enjoyed seeing characters personalities return (Picard) towards the ones we all came to know and respect in the series.

With regards to Miranda leaving, I read it more that she was on temporary assignment with the refugee agency. It seemed to me that she was not leaving the ship and her position, but was TDY and will return later.

My thought on the end of the novels was that Akaar was saying they are kinda back to Kirks age that perhaps the Admiralty might be realizing that they need to back off from trying to control their captains. In the new day and age that has dawned, that more control in assignments and priority needs to be given to the front line commanders.

The boots on the ground can see and react to the current priority so much easier than someone who is hundreds of lightyears distant.
 
Re: Some thoughts on Losing the Peace (spoilers for the book obviously

Thanks, Mike, and also thanks to everyone who has picked up and read the book over the past couple months.
 
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