some Star Trek III: TSFS Plot Contrivances

[kkozoriz1]

As Christopher suggested, the Federation follows a heirarchical structure, below i've put down the way the decision making in Trek happens

Federation Council
UFP Politicians/Ambassadors
Starfleet Fleet Admirals
Starfleet Admirals
Starship Captains

The Federation Council makes the decisions, the decisions are distributed throughout the Federation by member world Ambassadors and Politicians, at the same time if anything involves Starfleet (who are a Military Organisation, but with a primary function of Peace, Exploration, etc) then it goes to the Top Brass of Starfleet, who then issue orders to the Admirality, who then issue orders to the Departments and Starship Captains that they are responsible for

Although, post Destiny, a group of Starfleet officers took it upon themselves to remove the President, effectively giving themselves and, by extension, Starfleet, a veto over the Presidency.

It was a unique situation but who's to say that another group won't encounter a situation that they feel requires the same measures.

 

[sonak]

(Sigh) First off, it didn't even have to be Kirk OR the Enterprise, it just needed to be seen to that they retreived his body.


Secondly, Starfleet was LESS concerned about Klingon opinion in TVH, when they pardoned Kirk AFTER HIS ACTIONS AGAINST KRUGE.

So..... in TSFS they're making all of these decision based on an excessive paranoia about Klingon perceptions, yet in TVH, AFTER the Klingon Ambassador's rant to the Federation President about their views on Kirk, they're no longer taking it into account. (You can't use "there's no Genesis Planet anymore in TVH," because the ambassador's rant had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.)


Makes total sense, you guys are right, not contrived at all.

But the Federation/Starfleet had a card to play after the Genesis incident. A Klingon commander violated Federation space and destroyed a science vessel killing its' crew and executing a Federation scientist. Plus, I would say that the Klingons would see Kirk being stripped of him Admirals' rank as him being disgraced.

Sorry you can't seem to grasp how fluid many political situations are.

Well what I can grasp is how you and others use "politics" as a magical talisman to explain away any irrational/idiotic/inflexible decision Starfleet might make.

"wait, but it makes no sense that they wouldn't let Kirk go to Genesis if he and Sarek explained the situation to them."

-"but you don't understand man, it's POLITICS!"

"But... what does retrieving a body have to do with politics? And why couldn't they just explain what they were doing?"


-"because it's perception man, and POLITICS is always mixed with perception, so it doesn't really have to make sense as long as it's perceived to be about POLITICS!"


uh, ok, fair enough

 

[BillJ]

"wait, but it makes no sense that they wouldn't let Kirk go to Genesis if he and Sarek explained the situation to them."

You've made up your mind that it's a plot hole... and no amount of counter evidence will seemingly sway you.

But it does seem that Kirk did make the attempt to explain the situation to Starfleet...

MORROW: No. Absolutely not, Jim, ...You are my best officer. But I am Commander, Starfleet, so I don't break rules!
KIRK: Don't quote rules to me. I'm talking about loyalty and sacrifice. One man who's died for us, another who has deep emotional problems.
MORROW: Now! Wait a minute! This business about Spock and McCoy. ...Honestly, I never understood Vulcan mysticism.
KIRK: You don't have to believe! I'm not even sure I believe. But even if there's a chance that Spock has an eternal soul ...then it's my responsibility.
MORROW: Yours?
KIRK: As surely as if it were my very own! Give me back the Enterprise! With Scotty's help I could...
MORROW: No, Jim! The Enterprise would never stand the pounding and you know it.
KIRK: Then I'll find a ship. I'll hire a ship.
MORROW: Out of the question, my friend! The Council has ordered that no one but the science team goes to Genesis! Jim, your life and your career stand for rationality, not intellectual chaos. Keep up this emotional behaviour and you'll lose everything. You'll destroy yourself! Do you understand me, Jim?
KIRK: I hear you. ...I had to try.
MORROW: Of course.
KIRK: Thanks for the drink.
MORROW: Any time.

If Morrow thought he could sway the Federation council on behalf of one of his officers, don't you think he would have tried? Judging from the conversation he may have already tried to send a starship to Genesis but was rebuffed by the Federation council.

Then you have the fact that the crew stayed on Vulcan for three months per The Voyage Home and were going home to face charges. This would seem to show that the Vulcan governments influence in matters regarding Genesis were between slim and none (with Slim having left town). And this is with Kirk and company saving the life of a Starfleet Captain, thwarting a Klingon operation to get the Genesis technology and coming home with a Klingon Bird-of-Prey complete with cloaking device.

But you keep on believing what you want to believe.

 

[Anticitizen]

MORROW: No. Absolutely not, Jim, ...You are my best officer. But I am Commander, Starfleet, so I don't break rules!
KIRK: Don't quote rules to me. I'm talking about loyalty and sacrifice. One man who's died for us, another who has deep emotional problems.
MORROW: Now! Wait a minute! This business about Spock and McCoy. ...Honestly, I never understood Vulcan mysticism.
KIRK: You don't have to believe! I'm not even sure I believe. But even if there's a chance that Spock has an eternal soul ...then it's my responsibility.
MORROW: Yours?
KIRK: As surely as if it were my very own! Give me back the Enterprise! With Scotty's help I could...
MORROW: No, Jim! The Enterprise would never stand the pounding and you know it.
KIRK: Then I'll find a ship. I'll hire a ship.
MORROW: Out of the question, my friend! The Council has ordered that no one but the science team goes to Genesis! Jim, your life and your career stand for rationality, not intellectual chaos. Keep up this emotional behaviour and you'll lose everything. You'll destroy yourself! Do you understand me, Jim?
KIRK: I hear you. ...I had to try.
MORROW: Of course.
KIRK: Thanks for the drink.
MORROW: Any time.

Y'know... reading that, I can hear and see Shatner delivering those lines as he did in the film. That was some good acting, with his trademark pauses and all. 'You Don't. Have. to Believe!'

Sorry, off-topic.

 

[sonak]

"wait, but it makes no sense that they wouldn't let Kirk go to Genesis if he and Sarek explained the situation to them."

You've made up your mind that it's a plot hole... and no amount of counter evidence will seemingly sway you.

But it does seem that Kirk did make the attempt to explain the situation to Starfleet...

MORROW: No. Absolutely not, Jim, ...You are my best officer. But I am Commander, Starfleet, so I don't break rules!
KIRK: Don't quote rules to me. I'm talking about loyalty and sacrifice. One man who's died for us, another who has deep emotional problems.
MORROW: Now! Wait a minute! This business about Spock and McCoy. ...Honestly, I never understood Vulcan mysticism.
KIRK: You don't have to believe! I'm not even sure I believe. But even if there's a chance that Spock has an eternal soul ...then it's my responsibility.
MORROW: Yours?
KIRK: As surely as if it were my very own! Give me back the Enterprise! With Scotty's help I could...
MORROW: No, Jim! The Enterprise would never stand the pounding and you know it.
KIRK: Then I'll find a ship. I'll hire a ship.
MORROW: Out of the question, my friend! The Council has ordered that no one but the science team goes to Genesis! Jim, your life and your career stand for rationality, not intellectual chaos. Keep up this emotional behaviour and you'll lose everything. You'll destroy yourself! Do you understand me, Jim?
KIRK: I hear you. ...I had to try.
MORROW: Of course.
KIRK: Thanks for the drink.
MORROW: Any time.

If Morrow thought he could sway the Federation council on behalf of one of his officers, don't you think he would have tried? Judging from the conversation he may have already tried to send a starship to Genesis but was rebuffed by the Federation council.

Then you have the fact that the crew stayed on Vulcan for three months per The Voyage Home and were going home to face charges. This would seem to show that the Vulcan governments influence in matters regarding Genesis were between slim and none (with Slim having left town). And this is with Kirk and company saving the life of a Starfleet Captain, thwarting a Klingon operation to get the Genesis technology and coming home with a Klingon Bird-of-Prey complete with cloaking device.

But you keep on believing what you want to believe.

OK, I get why we're talking(posting) past each other here. I don't think it's exactly a plot hole that Starfleet wouldn't let Kirk go-a plot hole would mean that they basically didn't explain it.

Whatever my objections to the reasons, they were pretty thorough in explaining that Starfleet had become paranoid and secretive about Genesis. My objection is to that set-up itself. It was needlessly over-the-top in how it leaves no other option for Kirk but for him to go rogue.

-can't take the Enterprise, can't take another ship, etc.


And yes, I remember that scene of Kirk trying to persuade Morrow, but again, he doesn't have Sarek or the Vulcan Council's help. They'd give him a more concrete basis to go on than "Vulcan mysticism." And then Morrow's argument about "intellectual chaos" and "emotional behavior" would fall flat.

 

[JarodRussell]

How about the biggest plot contrivance that the Genesis planet is instable and that the entire project is a failure (without ANY indication of that in TWOK)?

Together with Krudge standing on the planet constantly saying "Give me Genesis" (which is like asking the crew of the Elona Gay "Give me the Manhattan Project!"), I think that's the lowest point of the movie.

 

[USS KG5]

All of these pale into insignificance when you realise there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to go to Genesis in the first place. They did not know Spock was alive, or had even a prospect of being alive. They in fact were going purely to recover Spock's body if for any reason, which the crew of the Grissom were very surprised to find (it should have burnt up)!

So before you even get as far as your points, the whole story is REALLY silly.

 

[USS KG5]

Suppose its fair to comment your points...

-this one might deserve a whole thread by itself, but I don't understand why the crew needed to steal the Enterprise and go against Starfleet to go to the Genesis planet. First, remember that Vulcan is a very influential member of the Federation. Sarek is the ambassador to the Federation, and knows all about the situation with Spock's katra. If he requested that Kirk be allowed to go and gives the reason why, shouldn't this be good enough?

The film explains this pretty well, on a good day this would be plenty, and Kirk would be allowed to go. However, Starfleet seems royally pissed off with Kirk for trashing the Enterprise and creating the Genesis mess. They even have his crew followed by the space-gestapo (a new element to trek to be sure), they are not disposed to do anything that could stir shite over genesis.

2. Why doesn't USS Grissom raise its shields or at least fire on the decloaked bird-of-prey?

Because it's a movie, the Grissom exists purely to die.

In universe, Grissom seems fairly small and either unarmed or very poorly armed and is suddenly ambushed by a warship. Esteban and his crew were dead whatever they did.

3. After Kirk realizes that the Enterprise's shields have overloaded, he doesn't make the decision to finish off the bird-of-prey.

The "automation centre" has overloaded, now the automation centre itself is a plot contrivance, but here they basically find they can't control the ship any more.

Why a ship from 300 years in the future can't be run from it's bridge alone until something needs fixing? Bigger question...

 

[Ssosmcin]

How about the biggest plot contrivance that the Genesis planet is instable and that the entire project is a failure (without ANY indication of that in TWOK)?

Considering that the torpedo was detonated in less than ideal conditions and they had never done a full scale test of the device, this is no problem. We only saw the Genesis cave, which may or may not have protomatter involved. Protomatter is "dangerously unstable" but not a certain "end all" of the project. Had they detonated the device where they wanted to, it may have worked out just fine. Apparently, David was betting on that.

The fact that the planet existed at all is a larger hole, but that was done in the prior film.

Together with Krudge standing on the planet constantly saying "Give me Genesis" (which is like asking the crew of the Elona Gay "Give me the Manhattan Project!"), I think that's the lowest point of the movie.

Nobody on the Enola Gay was attached to the Manhattan Project in any official capacity. All they did was fly over and drop the bomb. Kirk, however, was seen on the Genesis tape Kruge acquired, giving a detailed summary of the Genesis Project ("So, the Genesis commander himself"). He logically assumed that Kirk was someone who could provide him what he wanted. Kahn did the same thing and there was nothing tying Kirk to Genesis at that point.

Just because one is a science vessel doesn't mean they make it flimsy of with little girlie shields.

There's an idiom we really need to rethink. Take it from someone who grew up with a big sister -- little girlies are at least as tough as little boys.

Point taken, I stand corrected. And considering I also grew up with an older sister, you'd think I'd know better.

 

[BillJ]

Whatever my objections to the reasons, they were pretty thorough in explaining that Starfleet had become paranoid and secretive about Genesis. My objection is to that set-up itself. It was needlessly over-the-top in how it leaves no other option for Kirk but for him to go rogue.

-can't take the Enterprise, can't take another ship, etc.

I think that is where your misunderstanding comes in. Never once does Morrow tell Kirk that Starfleet has declared Genesis off limits. In each instance, Morrow refers to the Federation council as the body banning travel to Genesis.

KIRK: But we had requested... We'd hoped to take her back to Genesis.
MORROW: That is out of the question.
KIRK: May I ask why?
MORROW: In your absence, Genesis has become a galactic controversy. ...Until the Federation Council makes policy, you are all under orders not to discuss with anyone your knowledge of Genesis. Consider it a quarantined planet, and a forbidden subject.

And there's almost a distaste in his voice when he says it... like the civilian body had over-ruled the military in this instance.

There is much more to this than just what's going on internally in the Federation. The Federation was probably trying to claim the Genesis detonation was an accident not a weapons test detonation and probably figured the less ships they had buzzing around in the area the better off they'd be.

 

[Anticitizen]

All of these pale into insignificance when you realise there was ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to go to Genesis in the first place. They did not know Spock was alive, or had even a prospect of being alive. They in fact were going purely to recover Spock's body if for any reason, which the crew of the Grissom were very surprised to find (it should have burnt up)!

So before you even get as far as your points, the whole story is REALLY silly.

Yes, that's true. I believe the novelization corrects this by having David and Saavik find the empty torpedo tube first, and Kirk & Co. hearing about it somehow, spurring them to Search for Spock. The original script may have been written this way and gotten jumbled around; I don't know.

 

[BillJ]

All this talk... I think I'm going to pop in The Search for Spock later today. Always been one of my favorite Trek films.

 

[Search4]

Ahem. There's a science vessel in orbit at Genesis at the time they are having this conversation. Kirk's son AND Spock's trainee/mentee are aboard. Why not ask THEM to check what's going on the ground? When they report the coffin is empty, why not ask THEM to obtain the body, or reanimated Spock?

Oh, yes, the Klingon ship would have spoiled that party, but there was no reason not to ask the ship on the scene who has people who would certainly like Spock back (especially if reanimated) to take the charge.

 

[Unicron]

Nobody on the Enola Gay was attached to the Manhattan Project in any official capacity. All they did was fly over and drop the bomb. Kirk, however, was seen on the Genesis tape Kruge acquired, giving a detailed summary of the Genesis Project ("So, the Genesis commander himself"). He logically assumed that Kirk was someone who could provide him what he wanted. Kahn did the same thing and there was nothing tying Kirk to Genesis at that point.

The Kirk version of the Genesis tape never made much sense to me, since the portion we see is exactly like the version seen in TWOK, only with Kirk instead of Carol Marcus. That implies Kirk essentially made his own version for some reason, ultimately because he'd be more recognizable to viewers who hadn't already seen TWOK. Guess he had to do something on the way back to spacedock.

 

[kkozoriz1]

In universe reason, it's part of Kirk's official report.
Real world version, they didn't have to pay Bibi Besch.

 

[JarodRussell]

Nobody on the Enola Gay was attached to the Manhattan Project in any official capacity. All they did was fly over and drop the bomb. Kirk, however, was seen on the Genesis tape Kruge acquired, giving a detailed summary of the Genesis Project ("So, the Genesis commander himself"). He logically assumed that Kirk was someone who could provide him what he wanted. Kahn did the same thing and there was nothing tying Kirk to Genesis at that point.

And what did he expect to receive? Was Kirk supposed to write everything down on a piece of paper, while the planet around them was falling apart?

 

[sonak]

Ahem. There's a science vessel in orbit at Genesis at the time they are having this conversation. Kirk's son AND Spock's trainee/mentee are aboard. Why not ask THEM to check what's going on the ground? When they report the coffin is empty, why not ask THEM to obtain the body, or reanimated Spock?

Oh, yes, the Klingon ship would have spoiled that party, but there was no reason not to ask the ship on the scene who has people who would certainly like Spock back (especially if reanimated) to take the charge.

Yeah actually, I was thinking about that one after the thread got started, and it's a pretty obvious point-the only reason to avoid it I suppose is that if you eliminate THAT contrivance you have a hard time getting the plot started in the first place.


"you must go to Genesis, Kirk!"

"well, there's already a ship there, can't we just ask them to look in on Spock's body, and retrieve it?"

"er yes, actually we can. But it's more dramatic the other way."



As for the contrivance that they had no reason to go to Genesis when they did, I think that was just a sequential jumbling as another poster mentioned.

 

[Mr Silver]

Hmm...

*Federation: Oooh a new planet...wait it could be a weapon too?!
*Klingons: Grr Federation planning decimation of our race...lets sieze their secrets!
*Federation: Admiral Smith got drunk and told Grignak about Genesis, lets quarantine the System
*Enteprise: Hmm, lets make a new Genesis tape and why is the Federation not responding to our queries?
*Kruge: Grr the Empire want peace, lets go rogue!
*Federation: Out of the question!

Brief summary, Genesis and its potential for Mass Destruction gets out and the Federation shit themselves, since they supported the projects research. Klingons get wind of the situation and behind the scenes the Federation Council decides to quarantine the system and quietly cover it up. Kruge goes rogue, decides to find out what the Federation are keeping from the Empire. Kirk decides he wants to go back, Federation disallow it because its a sensitive issue and they won't make exceptions for anyone

 

[Anticitizen]

Here's a quibble I have with STIII - when Saavik lambasts David for his use of protomatter.

SAAVIK: It's time for total truth between us. This planet is not what you intended, or hoped for, is it?
DAVID: Not exactly.
SAAVIK: Why?
DAVID: I used protomatter in the Genesis matrix.
SAAVIK: Protomatter. An unstable substance which every ethical scientist in the galaxy has denounced as dangerously unpredictable.
DAVID: But it was the only way to solve certain problems.
SAAVIK: So, like your father, you changed the rules.
DAVID: If I hadn't, it might have been years, ...or never!
SAAVIK: How many have paid the price for your impatience? How many have died? How much damage have you done? ...And what is yet to come?

She's implying that David was responsible for all the death and destruction in STII and STIII. And, she manages to get a dig in against ol' Jim Kirk for good measure!

However, there's no reason why protomatter (causing Genesis' unstable nature) would have affected any of the conflict preceding the Genesis meltdown. The first stage of the experiment - the Genesis cave - seemed to be chugging along okay, and, in any case, the Genesis torpedo lifted by sticky-fingers Khan was still just an experimental prototype and not necessarily the final delivery device.

As an analogy, consider a researcher in a laboratory, struggling to find a cure for a deadly virus. In his research, he may have to use dangerous and deadly materials, including deadly strains of the virus itself. Khan comes along, as he does, and steals the deadly virus and uses it to wipe out a planet.

How many have died, David, due to your reckless disease research!?

...That's how I see it, anyway. A misplaced guilt-trip if ever there was one.

Heh, after visiting the Memory Alpha page on protomatter:

In 2374, the USS Voyager encountered a nebula that contained high concentrations of protomatter. Neelix, who had worked with protomatter in the past, was killed while protomatter was transported into a canister he was holding. Seven of Nine subsequently brought him back to life with her Borg nanoprobes. (VOY: "Mortal Coil"

Annnnd this is why I don't watch Voyager.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm assuming Sarek and the Vulcans could easily explain the situation to Starfleet Command and the necessity of action.

"He would not have spoken of this openly..."

Starfleet Command doesn't seem too interested in "Vulcan mysticism".