Who told you that?
Sobriety Checkpoint
- Thread starter Mr Light
- Start date
Who told you that?
Anyone ever hear of something where the cops show up at an establishment and administer breathalyzer tests? My sister had to have one when she was at a bowling alley and the owners suspected underage drinking. What would the punishment be for refusing the test? I've tried to see if there is one but all the sites I go to all assume you're being pulled over in a car.
I've heard of it before, but it was stories that were a friend of a friend of a friend whose cousin had a friend that...So I don't put much stock in them.
I presume the immediate "punishment" would be something along the lines of "contempt of cop" or "disorderly conduct" but the charges would likely be quickly dismissed within the next day. If you were charged with the "crime' and went to trial you'd probably need a second phone-number for all of the lawyers calling you wanting to climb up the department's ass with the severe civil rights violation.
In such a situation, keep two things in mind:
The police cannot detain you or make you submit to a test unless you're being accused of a crime or are under arrest and even then they can't make you do it if you play the lawyer card. So if you were in this theoretical bowling alley you have the right to walk away so long as you are not being accused of a crime.
There's a presumption of innocence on you and refusing to submit to a test is not an admittance to guilt. It's the same is "pleading the fifth" is not admitting guilt, while not entirely claiming innocence either.
So, in the bowling alley situation that was more clearly a case of the police acting outside of their bounds -and it isn't the same situation as the sobriety checkpoint.
First of all, the bowling alley is private property. So long as no laws are being broken in the open the police can't detain anyone there or make anyone submit to tests or even conduct tests or detain people without a crime having been comitted, one being comitted under their witness, or without a warrant. So just by walking in the door and saying they are going to conduct tests is a violation of civil rights.
Secondly, as I said above, they can't make people submit to tests without cause or a warrant. Even when you're pulled over for drunk driving you have the right to refuse to submit to the test -you have the right to self-incriminate. Nor can they "detain" you unless they're claiming you comitted a crime. Nor can they ask to see your DL unless you're in a car, or ask to see ID unless they are accusing you of comitting a crime.
All of this is different the sobriety checkpoint, however. At sobriety check point you're first of all on public property -where they have jurisdiction to pretty much do whatever they want to contain crime- secondly driving is a privelige granted to you by the state and regulated by the state -being in a bowling alley is a right of freedom you have under the Constitution- thirdly by stopping you and having you roll down your window to briefly check for glazed eyes, slurred speech, poor driving, alocholic breath, isn't ecroaching on any of your rights and any one of those gives them cause to pull you aside and check for druken-ness (but again, you've the right to refuse to submit to tests but the officer can still arrest you just based on an alcoholic odor, stumbling walk or slurred speech he doesn't really need the breathalyzer or FST, though both make the case easier in court.)
So, yeah, the bowling alley thing is outside their bounds as police officers and was complete BS. The checkpoints? Not so much.
It depends on the state. Some you need probable cause. I believe there are some states where you can lose your driver's license even if you aren't driving if you refuse to submit to a test (the idea is that driving is a privilege that can be suspended at any time).
Not 100% sure, but I think, THINK, TN is like this. Refusal to submit to field sobriety test/breathalayzer is a admission of guilt or some such.
Edit: Just found it on the TN DMV website (note: PDF file)
I personally know one guy back just after we got out of highschool that refused and the judge ruled that he must have been drunk, why else refuse, and convicted him of a 1st offense DUI based solely on the fact he refused a sobriety test.
And you don't have to be drunk to get a DUI in TN:
Of course all those are subjective to the officer doing the stop. After all you could just be tired or be sick, whatever and it'll still get you a DUI cause failing the field sobriety tests.
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It's not that surprising is it, that you can be DUI without being drunk? There are plenty of things you can be 'under the influence' of without having any alcohol in your system at all.
And if you're so tired and sick that you'd fail a sobriety test, why are you driving?
Maybe you're driving to the doctor!
Cause you know what, you pull a 14 hour shift, you've gotta get home some how. And a lot of folks can't call in a sick day cause they've got the flu or a head cold.
Oh well that's OK then, that makes you a perfectly safe driver.
If you're not fit to be driving, you shouldn't be on the road; do you think the fact that you've worked 14 hours or have a cold makes you or others on the road immune to car crash injuries?
So, what, is he just supposed to spend the night at work?
Do you not have buses or cabs in the US? Friends with cars?
No, didn't say that now did it? But the fact is that some of us don't get the choice to be 100% every time we get behind the wheel, we have to drive sick or injured or tired and just do our damnedest to be safe when we do it. Hell, I had to drive to work one time (a 1 hour commute each way) with two of my ribs cracked cause I was told call in sick lose my job. As a rule, I can't walk the yellow line (which is part of a field sobriety test in the US) straight due to my gimp leg, so I'd fail and be stuck with a DUI/DWI if I refused the Breathalyzer-- which in TN means nothing as a .00 is doesn't clear you.
Welcome to rural TN: No buses, no cab services out where we live, and when your friends aren't always going to drive you to work cause they're working their own screwball shifts or going to their 2nd or 3rd jobs.
Depends on where you live and the time of day. Public transportation sucks in the US. Our buses stop running at 10pm, and I'd still need to drive 15 minutes to get to the nearest stop.
So in TN law, your disability preventing you from walking a straight line is enough to get you a DUI conviction that you couldn't even contest? I doubt it. And if it is, that is one fucked up law.
No-one is 100% every time they get behind a wheel, and I'm not saying they have to be, it was the dismissive attitude you were using towards the effects of tiredness and illness on driving, which can on occasion prove more significant than the effect of a little drink.
I maintain that FSTs are stupid anyway, and I don't really see what can be concluded from them with any degree of 'without reasonable doubt'.
They're generally not admissible in court outside of establishing probable cause to be given a blood or breath screening from a reliable device at the station.
Read the law: Fail a field soberity test, and even if you take the breathalyzer, you can still be considerd under the influence. It's all up to the cop to "determine by his judgment" whether you are or aren't. Then you get to waste time and money going and arguing that you weren't in court.
And it's not dismissive, it's reality: Sometimes you don't have a choice, you have to get to work and you have to get home. And when you live in the sticks, guess what you drive.
You get stopped on a DUI your just screwed as a rule. Either you're going to get convicted, or your going to lose time from work and money fighting it in court.
Honestly, I hate driving in TN. They just look for reasons to nail you.
Hell I've been stopped a few times on this one:
You know why: Car seat in car = big target. I used to get stopped up on I-75 cause they'd see the car seat and wanted to do an inspection; 99% my son was at home and I was on my way to work. One cop even tried to cite me for a CRD violation using the argument that the seat wasn't buckled even though my son wasn't in the car at the time. Once I was wearing a black shirt, the cop didn't see the outline of the belt (this was night time) and he pulled me over, walks ups starts giving me the riot act, shouting about "seatbelt law" and "going through the windshield", can't even get a word in, I unbuckle to reach for the registration when he asks for it, he just stops talking says "Never mind" and walks back to his cruiser and leaves.
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I'm surprised to see so many people supporting these checkpoints.
Sorry, I don't want to be harrassed by cops when I've done nothing wrong and I don't give a damn how many lives it saves. How do we even know it saves lives? Sounds more like a fine-machine to me. What the hell happened to innocent until proven guilty?
What's next? Are the cops going to start searching random houses just to make sure nobody has anything illegal in them? Cause there could be a gun inside, or drugs, or a pointy stick maybe? Something that could hurt someone..
Yes, I will be much happier when the police start checking my car and house on a weekly basis for me. How very kind of them! If only there was a way they could check my thoughts as well!!
Sorry, I don't want to be harrassed by cops when I've done nothing wrong and I don't give a damn how many lives it saves. How do we even know it saves lives? Sounds more like a fine-machine to me. What the hell happened to innocent until proven guilty?
What's next? Are the cops going to start searching random houses just to make sure nobody has anything illegal in them? Cause there could be a gun inside, or drugs, or a pointy stick maybe? Something that could hurt someone..
Yes, I will be much happier when the police start checking my car and house on a weekly basis for me. How very kind of them! If only there was a way they could check my thoughts as well!!
A 20 second stop is not harassment, and I find it quite unbelievable that you consider your fleeting inconvenience to be worse than someone else's (or even your) death.
Except that checkpoints for drink driving will never produce revenue to even cover the costs of undertaking them. And drink driving is hardly an offence you can claim is cooked up to increase the fine intake. It is a recognised and major factor in a large proportion of serious and fatal RTCs.
Police investigation and crime prevention does not interfere with this principle. If you are pulled over, taken straight to jail and locked up for months without a breath test, trial, or anything, then innocent until proven guilty is violated. A traffic stop taking less than a minute does not presume your guilt.
Driving is a privilege not a right. It is not comparable to your right for your home to be free of unreasonable search and seizure.
Yes, I will be much happier when the police start checking my car and house on a weekly basis for me. How very kind of them! If only there was a way they could check my thoughts as well!!
Hyperbole, smooth. Always the benchmark of a solid argument.
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