So, your top 10 stories then?

[VDCNI]

Fair point

As much as I love modern Who the original series still dominates my favourites with only Turn Left coming close to making my top 10.

1 – The Talons Of Weng Chiang
2 – The Robots Of Death
3 – Marco Polo
4 – Snakedance
5 – The Curse Of Fenric
6 – Inferno
7 – The Web Of Fear
8 – The Sunmakers
9 – The Aztecs
10 – Image Of The Fendhal

 

[Andrew_Kearley]

7. The Macra Terror

Really? It's the Doctor saying, "Oh, this is gay!", isn't it? Considering how little of the episode survived, I'm surprised to find it on anyone's list - unless you saw it when it was first broadcast, but even so, I, for one, would probably not remember much after all these years. I find it rather hard to judge the serials which now lack so much visual material.

I've got the extant soundtrack, a complete set of telesnaps and the novelization. So I'm perfectly capable of judging the story on its merits, I think. Anyway, this was favourite *story*, not best production.

 

[Ubik]

Of the classic, in no particular order (or maybe semi-chronological order):

-The Aztecs (trust me, guys - go to Youtube, or DailyMotion, or wherever, and watch this very early Hartnell episode - it's one of the best of the 25 years)
-The Romans (if you like City of Death, this one is, maybe, even funnier)
-War Games
-Genesis of the Daleks
-Planet of Evil (a true science fiction story in the otherwise Gothically silly Hinchcliffe era)
-Warrior's Gate
-Kinda
-Earthshock
-Caves of Androzani
-Survival

 

[VDCNI]

Somehow I forgot The Romans! Tempted to redo my top 10 now!

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Just because there's probably three other people in the world who'd actually enjoy sitting through "The Web Planet" (and I count myself as one of them; I like that episode) isn't a sign of the impending apocalypse.

He he, yeah... A couple of weeks ago, I got together with a couple of my new-Who-fan friends who have been experimenting with the old series. (So far, Tom Baker is their favorite, the Jon Pertwee years bore them to death, they haven't seen enough of Patrick Troughton to make a good judgment, and the only think they like about the William Hartnell years is that Susan is absolutely adorable!) I simultaneously showed them some of the best & worst of the William Hartnell years with "The Romans" & the 1st 3 parts of "The Web Planet." "The Web Planet" is loads of fun to watch when you're really, really punchy late at night, particularly when surrounded by friends who are also avid MST3K fans! Probably the most difficult thing about a lot of those early Hartnell 6-parters is that nothing much happens in the 1st episode. After 25 minutes of "The Web Planet" part 1, all we have to show for it is Barbara giving Vicki some asprin and the Doctor burning Ian's tie in a pool of acid.

The Romans (if you like City of Death, this one is, maybe, even funnier)

I agree, although they're very different kinds of funny. "City of Death" is a serious alien time travel story populated with some funny supporting characters, a goofy Tom Baker performance, and crisp Douglas Adams dialogue. "The Romans" is more of a pure farce with a serious Ian-and-Barbara-are-kidnapped-and-sold-into-slavery B-plot.

Anyway, I think it's very difficult to compare the old & new TV series. The styles & pacing of them are so different. And that's not even counting all of the novels & audio adventures. So here's what I'll do: I'll make 2 top 10 lists. One for the old series & one for the new. Then, maybe I'll attempt a master list that includes the best of both those plus the novels & audios.

Old TV series:
1. "The Invasion"
2. "City of Death"
3. "The Romans"
4. "The Seeds of Death"
5. "The Five Doctors"
6. "The Three Doctors"
7. "The Two Doctors"
8. "The Ark in Space"
9. "The Aztecs"
10. "Remembrance of the Daleks"

New TV series:
1. "The Lodger"
2. "Vincent & the Doctor"
3. "Blink"
4. "Father's Day"
5. "Dalek"
6. "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood"
7. "The Eleventh Hour"
8. "Amy's Choice"
9. "The Vampires of Venice"
10. "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit"

I'm fairly confident in my old series list, at least as far as it pertains to classic stories that I've seen. There's still a lot that I haven't. As for my new series list, it's heavily weighted towards Matt Smith because he's the Doctor I've watched the most, most recently. If I gave Seasons 1-4 a proper rewatch, I'm not sure how things would shake out. I think it could go either way. Either I've forgotten how much I liked Eccleston & Tennant in the last couple years, or Matt Smith will end up claiming more territory and winding up higher on the list because he's just that good!

BTW, just taking a cursory glance at the 2 lists side-by-side, you know what I've noticed? Titles to seem to begin with "The" nearly as often.

 

[Shatnertage]

I like The Romans a lot, too. The Chase is in my queue, so I'll be able to chime in soon.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

OK, I tried giving it some thought, then just went with my gut, which is why some of the ordering on this list contradicts my previous lists. And really, when you add up the totality of Doctor Who narrowing it down to a single top 10 list is pretty damn impossible. A top 10 list per medium, per Doctor, THAT would be doable. Nevertheless, here's my thoughts on some of my favorite Doctor Who experiences:

1. "The Invasion" (old TV series, Patrick Troughton). Although Tom Baker & Matt Smith are very potent rivals, Patrick Troughton is my favorite Doctor. It's also tough to compete with Jamie & Zoe as companions, plus the one-off companion of Isobel Watkins, plus the introduction of UNIT and the 1st surviving story with the late, great Nicholas Courtney as Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart. Plus a great human villain in Tobias Vaughn. Plus the novelty of animated episodes to replace the missing parts 1 & 4. Plus the moody music. Plus the rarity of a long, 8-part story that never drags because they've packed in just enough plot, villains, & companions to keep it interesting for all 4 hours. I honestly cannot say enough good things about "The Invasion."

2. "Amy's Choice" (new TV series, Matt Smith). I LOVE Amy & Rory! Love love love them! While Matt Smith still struggles against Patrick Troughton & Tom Baker to be my favorite Doctor, not even the mighty Jamie McCrimmon can best Amy & Rory on my companion list. And this conflicted expression of Amy & Rory's love for each other just worms its way into my heart the way I never would have expected. And Toby Jones is a lot of fun as the villainous Dream Lord.

3. "The Lodger" (new TV series, Matt Smith). Imagine Doctor Who as a really brilliant sitcom. You'd get something like this. Matt Smith at his batty best as he tries and fails spectacularly at being "normal."

4. "Vincent & the Doctor" (new TV series, Matt Smith). It's less about fighting monsters than about salving wounded souls. The scene with Van Gogh in the museum nearly brings me to tears. And the Doctor's line to Amy at the end was just born to echo in sig lines for decades to come: "The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice-versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant."

5. "The Eleventh Hour" (new TV series, Matt Smith). More fun with Amy & Rory. ("The Vampires of Venice," "The Pandorica Opens," & "The Big Bang" were almost all on here for the same reason.) Matt Smith makes a great debut and the stuff with young Amelia waiting are so heartbreaking.

6. "Scherzo" (Big Finish audio adventure, Paul McGann). This audio story is particularly brilliant for adapting to the audio format. The Doctor & Charley are blind for most of the story and the monster is made entirely out of sound. And in this sensory deprivation, the Doctor & Charley express love for each other in a mature, frustrated way that makes you realize how silly, juvenile, & unbelievable the whole Doctor/Rose thing was.

7. "Loving the Alien" (BBC novel, Sylvester McCoy). An alternate universe murder mystery with the Cybermen. The best part is Ace, feeling like the Doctor has been a bit heavy handed towards her lately, finds herself constantly looking over her shoulder in 1950s London, where she sees a real police box on every corner, thinking it's the Doctor spying on her.

8. "Blink" (new TV series, David Tennant). Just a really strong time travel horror story in its own right. Even if you've never seen Doctor Who before, this is just brilliant.

9. "Excelis Dawns" (Big Finish audio adventure, Peter Davison). The most underrated companion ever is Katy Manning as lunatic Time Lady Iris Wildthyme. Imagine River Song mixed with Bugs Bunny & Lucille Ball. Iris keeps a diary of all her adventures, many of which sound suspicously like the Doctor's. (She once met 7 other incarnations of herself when Morbius used the time scoop to send her into the Death Zone to fight Zarbi, Zygons, "all the rubbish monsters.")

10. "Father's Day" (new TV series, Christopher Eccleston). A touching time travel paradox about a girl who has to watch her father die in order to save the world.

Honorable mention: "The Natural History of Fear" (Big Finish audio adventure, Paul McGann). This one isn't really a favorite of mine but I have to mention it because it's worth mentioning. It's just so weird & surreal. Paul McGann gives a great performance as a tyrannical villain who may or may not be a brainwashed version of the Doctor. This is another audio story where the final plot twist takes full advantage of the audio format and the lack of a visual element.

 

[od0_ital]

... And Toby Jones is a lot of fun as the villainous Dream Lord.

I did love that one bit...

"If you die in the dream, you wake up in reality. Now ask me what happens when you die in reality?"
"What happens?"
"You die, stupid, that's why it's called 'reality'."

 

[The Lensman]

I liked it because of the weird balletic movements and the overall strangeness of it. And the fact that a Zarbi ran right into a camera and that scene made the final cut. There's something almost like an experimental drama troupe about the early shows that I really like, and The Web Planet's a good example of them.

But it's a very, very acquired taste.

Well, it's certainly an experience, I agree. It's probably as close as you can come to an acid trip without taking acid. The Claws of Axos is also good for that - all those colours...

You know how I know you've never done acid?

I'm one of those three that LOVES me some "Web Planet", but as someone who's done acid, I never had that thought while watching it. YMMV tho.

My "Top Ten At The Moment I typed My Top Ten At The Moment" are, in no particular order:

1. The Web Planet
2. An Unearthly Child
3. The Talons Of Weng-Chiang
4. The Horror At Fang Rock
5.The Dalek Invasion Of Earth
6. The Ribos Operation
7. The War Games
8. Castrovalva
9. Enlightenment
10. Inferno
11. Mawdryn Undead

That's right...my "Top 10" goes to 11.

Captain Crow, what is it about the Mind Robber that gets it on your list? Other than the trippy "stage play" 60's vibe, which I'm cool with, I don't recall much about it.

 

[Cutter John]

... And Toby Jones is a lot of fun as the villainous Dream Lord.

I did love that one bit...

"If you die in the dream, you wake up in reality. Now ask me what happens when you die in reality?"
"What happens?"
"You die, stupid, that's why it's called 'reality'."

Seconded. I'd love to see him come back. With the Master gone, it'd be nice to have a new recurring villain (especially with all the fannish speculation about him becoming the Valeyard)

 

[Count Zero]

You know how I know you've never done acid?

I'm one of those three that LOVES me some "Web Planet", but as someone who's done acid, I never had that thought while watching it. YMMV tho.

Fair enough. It's just an expression. I always wanted to do acid and listen to Sgt. Pepper but the opportunity never arose. Now, I'd also want to watch The Claws of Axos again, too, because I think it makes a lot more sense that way.

Captain Crow, what is it about the Mind Robber that gets it on your list? Other than the trippy "stage play" 60's vibe, which I'm cool with, I don't recall much about it.

Zoe also goes Emma Peel on that comic book characters whose name I've forgotten. It wasn't that long ago that I saw it but I can't remember how they got out of it in the end. It started off really well and it's an interesting idea but I felt it meandered along too much. I like the various ways the Master of the land of fiction tries to trick the Doctor into taking his place, though.

 

[The Lensman]

You know how I know you've never done acid?

I'm one of those three that LOVES me some "Web Planet", but as someone who's done acid, I never had that thought while watching it. YMMV tho.

Fair enough. It's just an expression. I always wanted to do acid and listen to Sgt. Pepper but the opportunity never arose. Now, I'd also want to watch The Claws of Axos again, too, because I think it makes a lot more sense that way.

I wasn't aware of the expression...but the "you know how I know" bit is a meme from a website I visit called Fark.

As for taking acid and listening to Sgt. Pepper....well it's been about twenty years since I either listened to that album or dropped acid. While I don't recall if I listened to the whole album while on acid, I'm sure that I at least listened to "Lucy In The Sky..." for the obvious reasons, and that the song was a childhood favorite.

Good choice of listening material tho!

Captain Crow, what is it about the Mind Robber that gets it on your list? Other than the trippy "stage play" 60's vibe, which I'm cool with, I don't recall much about it.

Zoe also goes Emma Peel on that comic book characters whose name I've forgotten. It wasn't that long ago that I saw it but I can't remember how they got out of it in the end. It started off really well and it's an interesting idea but I felt it meandered along too much. I like the various ways the Master of the land of fiction tries to trick the Doctor into taking his place, though.

Yeah, it's been awhile since I've seen it. I'll have to break it out and watch again soon. And...Zoe in catsuit...

 

[Sadistro]

Never watched much of the classic series, so this is just from the new series.

1) The Unquiet Dead.
2) Dalek.
3) Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways.
4) The Christmas Invasion.
5) The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit.
6) Human Nature/The Family of Blood.
7) Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Timelords.
8) The Beast Below.
9) The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone.
10) The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood.

That's right - no 'Blink'. Steven Moffat is a decent writer and he's okay in small doses, but he is massively, massively overrated.

The weeping angels were a good idea, but the plot for that episode was self indulgent nonsense, excused only by the fact it had really good villains.

Paul Cornell would have made a far better showrunner IMO, but that's a topic for another time.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

... And Toby Jones is a lot of fun as the villainous Dream Lord.

I did love that one bit...

"If you die in the dream, you wake up in reality. Now ask me what happens when you die in reality?"
"What happens?"
"You die, stupid, that's why it's called 'reality'."

Seconded. I'd love to see him come back. With the Master gone, it'd be nice to have a new recurring villain (especially with all the fannish speculation about him becoming the Valeyard)

Yeah. There's that school of thought out there that the Master works best when he's done as a mirror image of the Doctor. John Simm was manic to match David Tennant's equally goofy energy. In some ways, I think Toby Jones accomplishes the same thing opposite Matt Smith. Even though Smith & Jones are very different physical types, their humor frequently has a similar tone. It's like if the 11th Doctor devoted all of his energy solely towards being cruel to others for his own amusement.

Spoiler: Amy's Choice

Granted, that supposed to be literally the case anyway but they did a good job of capturing that. Of course, considering how insulting & dismissive the 9th Doctor often was toward Mickey, perhaps the Dream Lord wasn't as far beneath the surface in that regeneration.

Captain Crow, what is it about the Mind Robber that gets it on your list? Other than the trippy "stage play" 60's vibe, which I'm cool with, I don't recall much about it.

Zoe also goes Emma Peel on that comic book characters whose name I've forgotten.

Ze Karkus. My favorite bit in that story is when Zoe tries to get the Doctor to will Ze Karkus out of existence by saying that he doesn't exist. The Doctor responds with a flustered, "But I don't know that. I've never heard of him."

As far as weird bits of Doctor Who humor go, I'd put that right next to Barbara's hilariously earnest attempt to impersonate a Dalek while giving orders to the Robo-men in "The Dalek Invasion of Earth."

That's right - no 'Blink'. Steven Moffat is a decent writer and he's okay in small doses, but he is massively, massively overrated.

The weeping angels were a good idea, but the plot for that episode was self indulgent nonsense, excused only by the fact it had really good villains.

Paul Cornell would have made a far better showrunner IMO, but that's a topic for another time.

I dunno. While I'm quite fond of "Father's Day," "Human Nature," & "The Family of Blood;" I think their level of pathos would be a bit much on a regular basis. I'd be afraid his tenure would descend into maudlin melodrama, like RTD but without the obnoxiously bombastic Dalek invasions.

 

[Sadistro]

But who's to say that Cornell would take it upon himself to write 6+ episodes in every season?

Writers who have a very distinctive style really shouldn't write too many episodes per season. In most shows, even when the episode count exceeds 20. you'll usually find even the senior writers only do 5 or so episodes.

That's what I meant by Steven Moffat being okay in small doses. He was fine writing 1-2 episodes a season, but now he's writing lots and lots of episodes, it feels like eating a whole jar of honey. Nice at first, but quickly becoming very sickly.

He's too hung up on the magic realism, 'The Doctor is a magic man from space' angle. His episodes feel very 'fairy tale' like, and it gets a bit much over the course of a season.

The charm of his episodes was that they felt timeless, like they were spooky but moving stories that were happening 'when the stars of midnight aligned and the moon was full' etc etc.

But you can't have that all the time. The show still needs to feel relevant and show that as fantastical as it is, it is taking place in a reality we know and can relate to.


I'd want Cornell, because I feel with him, we'd have more chance of seeing something genuinely new. His portroyal of the Doctor in 'Father's Day' and the end of 'The Family of Blood' has an added steeliness about it.

I feel like he understands real pain and actual suffering better than Moffat does with his romantic tragedies. I'm not saying that there isn't sadness and powerful emotion in Moffat's episodes, but it does feel less visceral, less real than in Cornell's or even RTD's better episodes.

Moffat's characters and situations simply feel too distanced for me to view them in that way - like they are characters from a fairytale and not from the real world. And yes, that is absolutely great in its own way, but sometimes you need something with a bit more of a razor's edged harshness.

I also think Cornell stands the best chance of doing justice to races like the Cybermen, Daleks and the various other aspects of the Doctor Who canon.

I.e using them in ways that are appropriate to their stature in the Doctor Who canon. Giving them episodes of real gravity, adding to the lore of the show with nuanced and interesting uses of these various races.

For example, I'd like to hear what a survivor of the Khaleds would think of what his race has become (the Daleks). How he'd feel to know that his race is probably cursed by every other race in the galaxy as the embodiment of evil. Because that would tie into the Doctor, who knows how corrupt his own race became at the end etc etc.

And I feel that Cornell would an ideal writer to tell such a story, because he understands the relevent emotions.

My dream team would be Cornell as showrunner, and Chris Chibnall as his deputy. Chibnall gets a lot of stick, and I definately think he has proved he needs help with the actual sci-fi aspects of his plots.

But Chibnall is an excellent writer of characters. In all the series he has done, his sci-fi plots have been pretty ropey, but his dialogue and character interaction is first rate.

 

[Starkers]

Trouble is Cornell probably would probably want to write 6 episodes a series as well so the same "problem" would be evident, and whilst Human Nature/Family of Blood is utterly fantastic, Father's Day is a bit flat by comparison, and I don't see how you can refer to Moffat's romatic tradegies when, essentially, that's all either Father's Day or the Human Nature 2 parter are??

And as good as that 2 parter is, it should always be remembered that it was based on Cornell's own novel (much changed obviously) so it's a story that he's probably had far longer to work the kinks out of than any other Who scriptwriter would have.

The issue of how many episodes the showrunner writes is something that maybe needs looking at, because whoever you are you're looking at the law of diminishing returns, be it RTD, Moffat or Cornell. The flipside is that when the show runner writes so many episodes it grounds the series in their interpretation of it, giving the show a very consistant feel--I'm currently rewatching Babylon 5 and obviously JMS wrote an awful lot of that (when he slept is anyone's guess) and it just make the show feel very smooth.

Worth mentioning as well that so far Moffat's only confirmed as writing 4 episodes of the coming series, although there's still one episode that hasn't had a writer confirmed so it might be 5.

Know what as well? If I was in his place I'd wanna write 5/6 episodes a series too

As for chibnall...I'm sorry but his three Who epsidodes have been dull affairs, and his Torchwood episodes rangered from atrocious to not bad, and even his better written stuff feels clunky to me, frankly I don't think he should ever write for Who again, and my great fear is that he ends up show runner, because despite lacklustre writing he's had some very high profile gigs in recent years so his CV looks v impressive...

 

[Sadistro]

I figured Babylon 5 would come up. That is very much an anomaly however.

Its not without consequences either - the show may have a great ongoing arc and continuity, but the standalones are of a very indifferent quality. There is also a lot of repetition of ideas throughout.

And I don't subscribe to the idea that Cornell would want to write so many episodes. We have no hard information on what kind of showrunner he would be.

To get the variety that a hit show needs, to keep things fresh, you either need to be a very flexible writer (not to mention one who thrives on pressure), or you need to trust in your writing team - that is after all, what they are they there for.

Communicating with your team, letting them know what you need from them, plus making sure their scripts are of the required quality is all important.

Moffat has not met either of the primary requirements. He is prone to repetition and doesn't seem to have excecised much quality control over the other writer's scripts IMO.

And look, I'm not saying that Chris Chibnall is the greatest sci-fi writer ever. He definately should not be showrunner, because as I say, he has shown an inability to write good sci-fi plots.

But his work on other shows that do not require heavy sci-fi plotting (Life On Mars had obvious fantastical elements, but they weren't required in every episode) and Law and Order UK, have been very well received.

Again, his character work is superb - his sci-fi is not. But that doesn't diminish the importance of having someone on your team who can write good dialogue and good characters.

The work he does on The Doctor's character in 'The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood' is some of the best in Season 5. Watch it again, ignore the plot and just concentrate on what he says and how he interacts with the other characters.

Same in Torchwood. Ignore his awful plots, and just concentrate on the character work and drama. The man has talent, but he needs help to make it on a sci-fi show.

He really needs a co-writer when working on sci-fi, or at least close scrutiny from others, to shore up his sci-fi scripts.

 

[Bones2]

Why are we talking about Chibnall?

Really, why? We could be comparing The Ribos Operation with Ghost Light or something, and instead we're discussing a man who may actually be the least talented new Who writer of all, which takes some doing.

 

[Starkers]

I'm not sure he's the worst, but he'd be really low down on my list of who I'd want to write another one.

Sadistro, you'll never convinve me he's a great writer, he may not be a terrible writer, and may in fact be better when he isn't writing sci-fi, but frankly it wasn't neccesarily the sci-fi elements that are terrible about The Silurian 2 parter, there's a terrible perception of time that's in fact so bad I thought it was intentional and part of the arc, there's characters that make little sense (one minute the Silurian scientist is Dr Mengele, the next he's everyone's cuddly uncle!). You mention Law and Order, but wasn't he adapating US scripts there? I'd need to check to see which episodes of LOM he wrote, but in all honesty that show isn't uniformly brilliant. And as for having someone to sense check his work, he has, both RTD and Moffat should have been doing that, that 42 was still so dull after that, and that the Silurian 2 parter was so poor speaks volumes.

As for what Cornell would or wouldn't do, you're right, we don't know, but I think if you were a huge fan, as RTD, Moffat and Cornell all are, you'd have to be really strict to limit yourself. And yes Moffat can be repetitive, in the same way RTD could, or Gareth Roberts can be, in the same way I think anyone who wrote lots of episodes of a series would be, but whilst familiarity can breed contempt, it can also provide comfort, and there are plenty of people who don't like the show any more because it feels different to how it was under RTD, in the same way plenty of people will not like the next show runner's version because it'll feel v different to Moffat's.

Cornell is a good writer, but I'm not sure he's had any production experience which is where RTD and Moffat had the edge, and as I say that's what I dind worrying about Chibnell. That said I'm not sure who I would want, and it might well be someone we've never heard of before, and they might actually do a better job that RTD or Moff...who knows?

You don't like Moffat's version of Who, fair enough, I think you just need to suck it up and live with it like those of us who weren't always enamoured of everything RTD's version of Who was, enjoy the stuff you like, try not to get too bent out of shape about the stuff you don't. And as for a hit show needing variery, Who was quite predicatble under RTD but people still tuned in in their droves, and they still do now with Moffat's version.

Showrunner's are a bit like actors playing the Doctor, if you're not a fan you don't have to worry because you at least know they won't stick around forever (well unless they're Tom or JNT )

 

[Sci]

Paul Cornell is probably my favorite nuWho writer, but from what I'm aware -- and someone correct me if I'm wrong -- he's never had production experience, only writing experience. And he's never actually run a show. Moffat and RTD both had significant showrunning and production experience before taking on Doctor Who.