So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame?

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So, you're saying that the Borg "Allowed" Voyager (And the Delta Flier?) to use those conduits it was "making" to scoot about in Dark Frontier to attack the Queen and then take a runner?

No. I'm saying that the novels seem to have interpreted Borg transwarp technology such that a coil is a technological component that enables it ship to access a pre-existing transwarp conduit automatically, in the same way that a set of wheels allows a car to access a pre-existing road.

Starflet seems to think that ships by themselves can create transwarp corridors.

SISKO: Major, are you laughing at our investigation of this subspace anomaly?
KIRA: No, sir.
WORF: The data collected here could provide Starfleet with the key to creating transwarp corridors through space. It could give us a substantial tactical advantage over the Dominion.
KIRA: It's very important research. What? I'm not laughing. Just because we are shrinking three people to the size of coffee cups.

Meanwhile Spock Pirme in the movie, was all about the Transwarp beaming.

And then there was Lore and Hugh's rebel Borg, as well as the rebel Borg form Unimatrix Zero who at least got a Sphere all to themselves.

The rebel Borg transwarp technology in "Descent" behaved very differently from Borg transwarp technology in VOY episodes. And "transwarp beaming" seems to function on yet another set of different principles -- as did Voth transwarp technology.

So there's a strong case to be made that "transwarp" doesn't refer to one particular technology, but is rather an umbrella term for different processes.

Tom explained that Transwarp space is an overspace (a higher dimension) were infinite speed (warp 10) is not only possible but unstoppable. In Threshold, because they found a limited and magic resource, they were able to enter transwarp space, which is well different to how they simulate subspace inside real space with warp engines by creating subspace bubbles... But the problem for Tom was that they couldn't navigate after they entered transwarpspace. It seems that the Borg can't navigate either. What they do instead is create corridors of real space (or subspace, or for lack of a better term a third space... HA!) inside transwarp space, and fly normally as if they were at warp or impulse, unless there are natural forces (The Borg need to projects a forcefield in front of them when entering a transwarp corridor to counteract the intense gravametric sheer, Seven once explained.) which sucks you into one end of a transwarp corridor and blows you out the end, but then because you are traveling at warp 10, it doesn't take any time to get from a to b, it only takes time figuring out how to extract yourself from transwarp space to where you wanted to be instead of bad mojo.

The Voth, those Dinosaurs, seem to have actual transwarp drive. they can navigate (it would seem?) without transwarp conduits, and might explain why the Borg and the Voth are not competing for real estate in transwarp space if they had both built a galaxy wide transwarp network each over the top of one another, although considering the Voth have 20 million years of recorded space faring history, if they had wanted/needed a transwarp network, the Borg would have had to have worked around them or through them.

That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that "transwarp" doesn't refer to one specific system but is rather an umbrella term for different ways to achieve speeds greater than traditional warp drive.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Well then you're just getting into mathematical rhetoric about "what is infinity?"

Some people say that Transwarp means "faster than warp" and some people say that transwarp speed means warp ten/infinite speed, which means you start stealing all that Eienstien light speed jargon (which I know was kinda proven wrongish recently with the discovery of faster than light particles.) about if you're standing inside a carriage on a train traveling at the speed of light, if you begin walking to the head of the carriage, doesn't that mean that you are walking "faster" than the Speed of Light?

(Interesting typo I just fixed up. "Speedo Flight")

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Well then you're just getting into mathematical rhetoric about "what is infinity?"

Some people say that Transwarp means "faster than warp" and some people say that transwarp speed means warp ten/infinite speed, which means you start stealing all that Eienstien light speed jargon (which I know was kinda proven wrongish recently with the discovery of faster than light particles.)

Wow. Hold on there. FTL particles have not been definitively proven yet. There's still a lot of research going on before even the people who announced that observation are willing to conclude that their observation was not erroneous.

about if you're standing inside a carriage on a train traveling at the speed of light, if you begin walking to the head of the carriage, doesn't that mean that you are walking "faster" than the Speed of Light?

(Interesting typo I just fixed up. "Speedo Flight")

See, the problem is that "Threshold"'s depiction of transwarp bears no resemblance whatsoever to its depiction in numerous other VOY episodes. There is, for instance, no indication whatsoever that the Voth or the Borg ever achieve "infinite" speed.

Which is part of what leads me -- and has led ST author Christopher L. Bennett -- to conclude that "transwarp" is an umbrella term for several different technologies, not one particular system.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Another interpretation is that "transwarp" doesn't refer to one specific system but is rather an umbrella term for different ways to achieve speeds greater than traditional warp drive.

I agree with that bit. There have been too many inconsistent onscreen uses of that word to have it any other way, IMHO.

What exactly does Christopher say about this in the book, BTW?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I did say "wrongish"

Hells, wrongish isn't even a real word.

And be careful about throwing Christopher's name around like that, or you'll summon him like Candyman or Biggy Smalls, which is like inviting Patrick Swayze to your school dance, and wondering why there's no tottie for you.

No.

Christopher is not dead.

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Is it possible that the unlimited speed that Tom achieved in 'Threshold' was something that the Voth avoid precisely because of what it represents and possible consequences and are using slower TW velocity?
The special effects for Voth TW were same like the ones we saw when Tom was incredibly close to the Threshold (and broke it).

Borg TW is a different variety though.
It's much closer to Slipstream in terms of special FX (and green - though that can be attributed to the Borg liking the said color) and even 7 described it as similar to TW tech used by the Borg.

The Renegade Borg from Descent had their own mini TW network in the AQ which was similar in principle to what the Collective uses, but different in terms of access - probably because back then the technology was different, and they were cut off from the Hive.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Nice observations on the special effects.

But, The Rebels had been free in the real world for 10 seconds.

when did they have time build their own network?

Unless, the Rebel Borg and the Borg both had equal access to all the security codes on the network for about a tenth of a second, and they were playing a galactic sized game of Othello to sort out custody of the network after their less than amicable separation?

By your/Christophers logic, Borg Vessels cannot create new conduits without a hub to facilitate and regulate the conduits presence in... The Rebels would need to build a hub of their own or take someone elses Hub, the Borg or otherwise.

Do Transwarp corridors create slithers of transwarp space in real space, or are transwarp corridors slips of real space tunneling through transwarp space?

I only ask because Tom got to transwarp by breaking warp ten while resting in a supspace bubble floating in real space, because is it more likely that the p[property of his bubble transformed, or that the subspace bubble left realspace and entered a higher dimension or transwarpspace?

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Another interpretation is that "transwarp" doesn't refer to one specific system but is rather an umbrella term for different ways to achieve speeds greater than traditional warp drive.

I agree with that bit. There have been too many inconsistent onscreen uses of that word to have it any other way, IMHO.

What exactly does Christopher say about this in the book, BTW?

I don't remember if he discusses transwarp as a general concept, but his book Greater Than the Sum features a discussion of quantum slipstream technology.

Christopher's conclusion that "transwarp" is an umbrella term is taken from several posts he's made to that effect, mostly in, IIRC, the Trek Lit forum.

By your/Christophers logic, Borg Vessels cannot create new conduits without a hub to facilitate and regulate the conduits presence in...

I don't want to ascribe anything to Christopher other than the conclusion that "transwarp" is an umbrella term for several different kinds of FTL technologies.

Do Transwarp corridors create slithers of transwarp space in real space, or are transwarp corridors slips of real space tunneling through transwarp space?

I only ask because Tom got to transwarp by breaking warp ten while resting in a supspace bubble floating in real space, because is it more likely that the p[property of his bubble transformed, or that the subspace bubble left realspace and entered a higher dimension or transwarpspace?

I think we should just follow Brannon Braga's lead and ignore "Threshold" entirely. There's a reason he said that he and the other writers no longer considered it canonical.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

You see, I am in this majestically marginalized minority.

I liked Threshold.

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

You see, I am in this majestically marginalized minority.

I liked Threshold.

If you take some ibuprofen, drink lots of fluids, and get plenty of rest, you'll start to feel better after a day or two.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Sound advice.

What the fuck is this thread supposed to be about?

Janeway rewriting history.

Actually.

Janeway raped Tom.

As Janeway tried to illustrate that tryst after the fact.

So Braga tries to cover up the fact that his heroine is a sexual predator, somehow, I really don't suspect that they would give Sisko a free pass if he forced himself on a woman half his age under his command to fill full of babies.

(Although Deanna didn't mind what that Brute Worf got up to when she was a Mermaid.)

Braga's just as bad as his writing.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I don't know if this has ever been addressed here or not, but what Ben Sisko did with "Mirror" Jadzia would be considered "rape by impersonation" in most jurisdictions.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I was thinking that too, but thought it was a little bit of a stretch considering he did the same thing to the Intendant too... Didn't he?

As House underlines every week...

"Everybody lies"

On Misfits last week the new guy says "Hang on mate,I'm just going to give her a sleepy fuck before she wakes up." to which his "friend" says "No. That's rape" and the new guy counters "Naaaaaaaaaaaaaah. No it isn't. Sleepyfuck, I'll just be a minute." which alarms his "friend" "NO. I'm positive it's rape. it is." which begins to annoy the new guy "Seriously mate, I do it all the time, it's not ra... Oh bugger,you woke her up. Time for plan b. HULLO DARHLING!."

It''s been a while.

Benjamin actually slept with her?

 

[E-DUB]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Yes, he did. In fact, on his next trip to the MU she slugged him one for it. I'd forgotten about the Intendant, but A: that could have been excused as more "in the line of duty, and B: I doubt that she would have much cared.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I'm not aware of RU Sisko doing it with the Intendant, but I'm sure MU Sisko did.