So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame?

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So why are there still Borg in all the Novels?

Maybe I was understating Voyagers abilities to scan real space and subspace, but Voyager near collided with a Cube in Endgame, and they didn't notice the thousands of transwarp conduits intersecting into a few hundred feet of space right in front of them. Transwarp to these intrepid explorers is like a language their UT doesn't have the dictionaries for. They just don't have the technology to scan it, other wise Starflet might have noticed that conduit ending 2 light years from Earth until it manifested an aperture ripping into real space which might have been sitting there for years.

But I digress...

Braxton and Ducane murdered Seven of Nine seven or nine times.

I say murdered, you say ordered to her death.

Janeway unleashed hell on anyone who even looked funny at our Borgette, but she forgives the multiple murder and remurder of her most cherished crewman?

Pull the other one.

Garibaldi once said "Some times you know you're not going to come back, but you have to have faith that your CO has the moral authority to make that call."

I wonder if Janeway, or Seven considered taking the Relativity?

Did Captain Braxton Have the moral Authority to order Seven of Nine to her Death a dozen times?

There must have been a point, a line, if crossed, where Janeway or Seven decided, that these Future people are not Starfleet enough for her, and she took their timeship to get her crew/mates home.

But then if she didn't try to back Hand Braxton when he was in a Shuttle, it's clear Janeway doesn't want "mutineer" on her permanent record... Which is ironic when you consider how she pushes her crew.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So why are there still Borg in all the Novels?

Never read the Destiny trilogy, I take it?

Spoiler: Destiny

There aren't any more Borg.

As for Braxton: yes, he did have the authority. Seven volunteered for the missions he sent her on. She was a junior officer working for a superior. He was her boss, so he had the authority to give her orders. Besides, she knew the risks if she didn't comply - Voyager would have been destroyed. I suppose she could have refused, and Braxton would have sent her back, but she's not about to let the crew down.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"Relativity" is a dumb episode that's best ignored in my opinion.

I thought it was a lot of fun. I also find the idea of a future where Starfleet has lost it's way (either intentionally or through writer cluelessness) fascinating.

Though technically it could just be the guys in the temporal division that lost their way, since their the only ones we see.

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"Relativity" is a dumb episode that's best ignored in my opinion.

I thought it was a lot of fun. I also find the idea of a future where Starfleet has lost it's way (either intentionally or through writer cluelessness) fascinating.

Though technically it could just be the guys in the temporal division that lost their way, since their the only ones we see.

Christopher L. Bennett's novel Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock establishes that the 29th Century Temporal Integrity Commission has indeed allowed paranoia about the effects of time travel to justify some very unjust, abusive practices that violate the principles of the Federation -- and that this does not last forever, either, and that later Federation agencies come to regard their 29th Century counterparts as an anomaly in the Federation's normally just history.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So why are there still Borg in all the Novels?

Never read the Destiny trilogy, I take it?

Spoiler: Destiny

There aren't any more Borg.

Which was published some months after the Borg Killed Janeway, and some years after Voyager got home in Endgame.

Janeways been dead almost 5 years.

Oh.

Did "Captain" Janeway accidentally and unwittingly commit suicide by changing the timeline from what Admiral Janeway knew to be home?

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So why are there still Borg in all the Novels?

Never read the Destiny trilogy, I take it?

Spoiler: Destiny

There aren't any more Borg.

Which was published some months after the Borg Killed Janeway, and some years after Voyager got home in Endgame.

For the record, the publishing and setting schedules work out like this:

Voyager: "Endgame" aired on 23 May 2001, and was set in late 2377.

Voyager: Homecoming and Voyager: The Farther Shore, the first VOY novels set after the series, were published in 2003, and set in early 2378.

Voyager: Spirit Walk, a follow-up duology, came next. Old Wounds and Enemy of My Enemy were published in 2004 and set in 2378.

The Next Generation: Resistance was published in published in August 2007, and set in 2380.

Spoiler: TNG:R

It featured an isolated Borg cube, cut off its connection to the rest of the Collective, which had established its own mini-Collective with a more aggressive set of drones.

The Next Generation: Before Dishonor was published in November 2007, and set in June 2380.

Spoiler: BD

In this book, that same cube, having been denuded of drones and its Queen, uses its A.I. to adapt, assimilating Admiral Janeway into its new Borg Queen, and launching an assault on Sector 001 before Janeway's personality re-asserts itself and helps Starfleet defeat the cube. Janeway dies in the resultant destruction of the cube.

The Next Generation: Greater Than the Sum was published in August 2008 and set in mid-to-late 2380.

Spoiler: GTtS

In it, the U.S.S. Enterprise pursues to the far corners of local space the U.S.S. Einstein, which had been assimilated by the cube from Before Dishonor before its destruction. The Einstein mini-Collective is trying to reach the rest of the Collective from the Delta Quadrant -- whose transwarp technology was revealed to have been disabled as a result of Future!Janeway's actions destroying the transwarp conduit system in "Endgame."

The Destiny trilogy was published from October to December 2008, and set in February 2381 (with flashbacks set in the 22nd Century, 15th Century, and 42nd Century BCE).

Spoiler: Destiny

In it, the Borg Collective arrives in force in the Alpha Quadrant, determined to exterminate the Federation and its neighbors in retaliation for their destruction of the transwarp conduit system in "Endgame." In the end, the Collective is dissolved and the Borg are no more.

Voyager: Full Circle was published in April 2009 and set from 2378 to just after the Borg invasion in 2381, following up on Spirit Walk and bringing the series up to speed with the TNG series.

Spoiler: FC

It ends with Voyager leading a new fleet of Federation starships that arrive in the Delta Quadrant with quantum slipstream technology -- to explore the Delta Quadrant, re-establish contact with friendly races Voyager had encountered, and investigate the disappearance of the Borg in their home territory.

Voyager: Unworthy followed in October 2009, and then Voyager: Children of the Storm in June 2011, both following on from Full Circle in 2381.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Crazy Borg are partitioned off from the healthy lush of the Collective.

So of course the Crazy Borg thought they were alone, and shat on all Borg ideals completely by emotionally taking things in hand ignoring their extended timetable to bring bliss and harmony to the galaxy.

The transwarp network was on par with the Galactic System of Stargates in Stargate, but in either case, once you take away that instant travel method, the Borg still have ships that can create new Transwarp Conduits, and the Goul'd still had faster than light ships.

So I read another brief synopsis on Borg History.

In book 3 to the Destiny trilogy, 3 years after Endgame, and 7 years after the catastrophic losses in ships and manpower to 8472, 7 and a half thousand Cubes attacked the AQ killing 63 billion people.

Remind me exactly how well Janeway exterminated the Borg to the Brink of extinction?

If those 7 and a half thousand Cubes, and however many more cubes and spheres were still back home kicking it, had just decided to spend time building up their infrastructure and swellng their ranks, with something less fragile than the transwarp Network... Or devised a first strike that was uncounterable like what The Karate Kid did at the end of the movie...

Emotion got the better of them?

*&^%

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I thought it was a lot of fun. I also find the idea of a future where Starfleet has lost it's way (either intentionally or through writer cluelessness) fascinating.

Though technically it could just be the guys in the temporal division that lost their way, since their the only ones we see.

Christopher L. Bennett's novel Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock establishes that the 29th Century Temporal Integrity Commission has indeed allowed paranoia about the effects of time travel to justify some very unjust, abusive practices that violate the principles of the Federation -- and that this does not last forever, either, and that later Federation agencies come to regard their 29th Century counterparts as an anomaly in the Federation's normally just history.

The novel "Crossroad" features a much, much darker future-Federation in the 26th century.

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

It was postulated that Borg ships utilized the existing TW network as opposed to being able to have independent control of the conduits.
As evidenced in TNG and Voyager, TW conduits were pre-made by the Borg.

Now... the TW coil as seen in Dark frontier, muddies things up a bit since it implies free reign (an independent system compared to the TW network)... but it's possible the Borg abandoned it in favor of the existing TW hubs.
The said option WOULD allow the Borg to use TW with or without use of their main network, but the novels clearly went along with the pre-made network thing and ignored the coils.

Then again... the coils could have a different function.
For example, a ship equipped with them could scan for and open existing TW conduits rather than open temporary new ones.
And since the TW network was implied as being incredibly vast, it's not a stretch to think the system has millions of tunnels.

The Novels on the other hand aren't canon, but even if we went along with them, the cut off Borg from the collective were the ones who appeared before the Destiny Trilogy.
The ones that appeared in the trilogy and made a full scale invasion of the Alpha and Beta quadrants were the actual Collective we saw SF engage on a regular basis (Voyager in particular).

Neither had the ability to achieve TW speeds, hence the novels obviously went along with the pre-made network of TW tunnels premise instead of the individually controlled temporary conduits which were made by individual ships (as is the case with Slipstream).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Revisionist much?

The transwarp network was train tracks. The coils were chain gangs making new track, and the hub was grand central station. Such a simple metaphor.

Sure the Net work could take them to where every they had been before, but they hadn't been everywhere yet, and what about small hops from adjacent star systems? Build a new conduit between two solar systems, or Build a coinduit all the way back to a hub and then build another conduit all the way back to the solar system where you wanted to go in the first place? Which would turn a trip of a couple hours into a an epic undertaking of weeks maybe months.

There would be untold smaller conduits not connected to any hub, meanwhile there would be divisions Cubes who's sole purpose would be to extend the transwarp Network in relation to the hubs, so that when Borg who actually have business to get into, they don't have to dilly dally about. Engineers vs Soldiers.

Why else would there be so many exit apertures (as mentioned in Endgame) in the AQ but no invasion on the books? Not that an AQ invasion couldn't have been unexpectedly put on the back burner until after they had recovered from 8472.

Seriously, have you ever used the trains in a city? You get a choice of going forward on a train for a bit, and then catching a bus, and then walking for 20 minutes and catching another train... Or going backward for an hour to the terminal so that you can catch one train to exactly where you're going.... Which takes longer and costs more money.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Apart from anything else, it's fairly clear that the Borg built the Transwarp hubs...so there was nothing to stop them being rebuilt!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I'm a little pissed no one rebuilt the Twin Towers.

 

[Sci]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So of course the Crazy Borg thought they were alone, and shat on all Borg ideals completely by emotionally taking things in hand

"Borg ideals?"

And the Borg are already emotional. They worship the Omega Particle; they insist on indulging in an imperialist impulse to consume and control everything; they feel loneliness.

The transwarp network was on par with the Galactic System of Stargates in Stargate, but in either case, once you take away that instant travel method, the Borg still have ships that can create new Transwarp Conduits,

Actually, we don't know if transwarp coils created new conduits, or if the conduit system itself simply allowed transwarp coils to function. The nature of Borg transwarp technology was never established in that much detail.

In book 3 to the Destiny trilogy, 3 years after Endgame, and 7 years after the catastrophic losses in ships and manpower to 8472, 7 and a half thousand Cubes attacked the AQ killing 63 billion people.

Remind me exactly how well Janeway exterminated the Borg to the Brink of extinction?

She didn't. But they did seem to think that Future!Janeway's neurolytic pathogen -- whatever the hell that was -- would infect and dissolve the entire Collective. They turned out to be wrong, that's all.

If those 7 and a half thousand Cubes, and however many more cubes and spheres were still back home kicking it, had just decided to spend time building up their infrastructure and swellng their ranks, with something less fragile than the transwarp Network... Or devised a first strike that was uncounterable like what The Karate Kid did at the end of the movie...

Their first strike was uncounterable. The Borg Collective won every battle its fleets undertook; the Federation and its neighbors were unable to withstand them militarily.

Revisionist much?

It's not "revisionist." The exact nature of Borg transwarp technology was never established.

The transwarp network was train tracks. The coils were chain gangs making new track, and the hub was grand central station.

<SNIP>

Sure the Net work could take them to where every they had been before, but they hadn't been everywhere yet, and what about small hops from adjacent star systems? Build a new conduit between two solar systems, or Build a coinduit all the way back to a hub and then build another conduit all the way back to the solar system where you wanted to go in the first place? Which would turn a trip of a couple hours into a an epic undertaking of weeks maybe months.

There would be untold smaller conduits not connected to any hub, meanwhile there would be divisions Cubes who's sole purpose would be to extend the transwarp Network in relation to the hubs, so that when Borg who actually have business to get into, they don't have to dilly dally about. Engineers vs Soldiers.

That's a perfectly valid interpretation of the canonical evidence, but it's not definitive, and the novelists chose to interpret it differently.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

So, you're saying that the Borg "Allowed" Voyager (And the Delta Flier?) to use those conduits it was "making" to scoot about in Dark Frontier to attack the Queen and then take a runner?

Starflet seems to think that ships by themselves can create transwarp corridors.

SISKO: Major, are you laughing at our investigation of this subspace anomaly?
KIRA: No, sir.
WORF: The data collected here could provide Starfleet with the key to creating transwarp corridors through space. It could give us a substantial tactical advantage over the Dominion.
KIRA: It's very important research. What? I'm not laughing. Just because we are shrinking three people to the size of coffee cups.

Meanwhile Spock Pirme in the movie, was all about the Transwarp beaming.

And then there was Lore and Hugh's rebel Borg, as well as the rebel Borg form Unimatrix Zero who at least got a Sphere all to themselves.

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

The TW coil Voyager stole was Borg based.
Those might be used for accessing pre-existing TW conduits that the Borg established.
And, as evident in Dark Frontier, the Queen was content leaving Voyager alone so long as she got 7 back (which she did).
It's also possible that using the Borg TW coil generates a Borg signature and therefore the Collective might not be able to distinguish the Delta Flyer in TW corridors.

It's an aberration to be honest. Perhaps the Borg prefer using their network instead of opening individual corridors that are temporary.
The TW coil could be explained in such a fashion after all and why the Borg in 'destiny' novels had no TW capability after the network was obliterated in 'Endgame'.

Mind you, the novels aren't canon, but one can explain it.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"All that's in the Alpha Quadrant are exit appetures"

The TW Coil is used to access these exit appetures and open them so that they can be traversed. This explains why in Dark Frontier, Voyager was able to collapse the exit appeture so that it destroyed the Borg Diamond, and why they got "only" another 20,000 lightyears out of it before it gave out. If you're travelling along an established transwarp corridor (like the DF was in Dark Frontier) then it only has to open it at either end. But if you want to go on a course that doesn't have a direct corridor - like Voyager was at the end of Dark Frontier - then the coil has to keep opening up the exit appetures to allow you to traverse.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Yet in "Descent" the Enterprise-D is able to use a Borg transwarp corridor simply by futzing with the deflector array to trigger it's opening.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Maybe there were problems with this that the TW Coil accounts for? Voyager was initially able to open a Quantum Slipstream without building a specific drive for it, maybe the same is true of TW?

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Or the very nature of the TW corridors in 'Descent' were different... allowing the Enterprise-D to open them with the deflector dish - a 'mini network' so to say that wasn't connected to the TW hubs.

As for Slipstream... actually, Voyager was able to open Slipstream thanks to modifying their warp core.
So in part, they build a component on top of their warp core allowing them to do it (likely to generate the Quantum field directly off the core, then route it to the deflector array).
That version of the QS drive was slower (300 ly's in 1 hour) than the v2 the crew made in 'Timeless' (10000 ly's in 1 minute), and it was damaging to the structural integrity.
The v2 on the other hand posed a problem with the phase variance after 17 seconds of flight which destablized the envelope and kicked the ship out of it in the Takara sector.

The v2 also needed Benemite crystals and had loads of Borg technology in it to work.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Tom explained that Transwarp space is an overspace (a higher dimension) were infinite speed (warp 10) is not only possible but unstoppable. In Threshold, because they found a limited and magic resource, they were able to enter transwarp space, which is well different to how they simulate subspace inside real space with warp engines by creating subspace bubbles... But the problem for Tom was that they couldn't navigate after they entered transwarpspace. It seems that the Borg can't navigate either. What they do instead is create corridors of real space (or subspace, or for lack of a better term a third space... HA!) inside transwarp space, and fly normally as if they were at warp or impulse, unless there are natural forces (The Borg need to projects a forcefield in front of them when entering a transwarp corridor to counteract the intense gravametric sheer, Seven once explained.) which sucks you into one end of a transwarp corridor and blows you out the end, but then because you are traveling at warp 10, it doesn't take any time to get from a to b, it only takes time figuring out how to extract yourself from transwarp space to where you wanted to be instead of bad mojo.

The Voth, those Dinosaurs, seem to have actual transwarp drive. they can navigate (it would seem?) without transwarp conduits, and might explain why the Borg and the Voth are not competing for real estate in transwarp space if they had both built a galaxy wide transwarp network each over the top of one another, although considering the Voth have 20 million years of recorded space faring history, if they had wanted/needed a transwarp network, the Borg would have had to have worked around them or through them.