So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame?

[exodus]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Well Guinan does say in Q Who that one day the Federation will be able to have a relationship with the Borg...and she tends to know stuff!

Yep.
I believe what she meant was the same sentiment made in "Hope & Fear" about the Borg just being a force of nature and if you learn how they operate, you can weather any attack they send your way. Once they learn they can't defeat you(Like the Dominion) they'll leave you alone. We've seen species with civilizations that live on the boarder of Borg space and they seemed able to deal with them. "Raven" for example.
I think "H&F" echoes what Guinan implies about it being possible to co-exist with the Borg.

 

[Vulagr]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Discuss

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Because the staff was so incredibly talented that they were able to conceive of realities beyond purely linear space-time.

Hmmm, didn't Braga cover that in his TNG episode "Parallels"?! With multiple realities branching off of each other constantly?

For the poll I selected "2", but it's really a combination of option 1 and 2. I liked to think Kes' family didn't rubbed out completely when Kes was replaced by Seven, but merely branched off into another reality.

The universe branching into a multiverse, is a natural phenomenon. Timetravel (in some cases) seems to be about taking a universe and changing it, rather than creating a slighting different sibling to live out in parallel. of course time travel doesn't just change one universe but all universes branching forth from the zeropoint.

Compare Mitosis to cosmetic surgery.

 

[Mach5]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

The universe branching into a multiverse, is a natural phenomenon. Timetravel (in some cases) seems to be about taking a universe and changing it, rather than creating a slighting different sibling to live out in parallel. of course time travel doesn't just change one universe but all universes branching forth from the zeropoint.

Not quite.

Anything caused by the time travel must have had a finite probability of happening anyway, so paradoxical impossibilities are out.

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey... Quantum mechanics.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Not quite.

I feel as though you could have at least used twice as many words to say almost the same thing.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

How do we know the Relativity crew DIDN'T do anything?

I mean, we know they had to come clean up the mess left behind by Harry's actions at the end of "Timeless" (they called it the 'Temporal inversion in the Takara sector) so perhaps they did the same thing here too. Just because we didn't see it in the episode doesn't mean they didn't do anything.

For all we know, ten minutes after the end of the episode (onscreen), the Relativity cleaned out every last bit of extra tech and left the Voyager crew wondering where it went. In fact they probably DID do exactly that.

So it was those bastards who were pushing the reset button every week.

 

[VulcanJedi]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Time Travel stories that don't return to the status quo at their completion are the weakest of plots.

First Contact is good, because they return to status quo.
Voyage Home is good, because they return to the status quo.
Year of Hell is good, because they return to the status quo.
Future's End is good, because they return to the status quo (except for the mobile emitter, I guess.)

Endgame is BAD, because future Janeway mucks it all up just so the series ends well. Especially disconcerting is the fact that we learn that Voyager does indeed make it home 17 years later, but that timeline is wiped out in the interests of ending the show after 7 seasons. I would have liked to have watched THAT Voyager series, not the one we ended up with. Think of all the races, exploring, adventures that the Voyager crew misses out on just so they can get home? I thought they were explorers!

I agree. I just finished a whirlwind trek through the instant watch Voyager episodes on Netflix streaming and am sort of dissapointed. I thought the alternate timeline sounded like a lot more fun and something to potentially be explored in novels. Have they done this yet?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Nope. The novels continue from the end of "Endgame"

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Christopher mentioned it in his Myriad Universe's tale "Places of Exile" and indicated that the timeline still continued in the "multiverse"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Ducane could be evil?

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I think that was made pretty clear when he started arresting people for crimes "they're going to commit"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

 

[Lord Manitou]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

In Kirstens' novels following Endgame she also assimilates all previous timelines experienced by Voyager crew and calls the one in her novels the best one. When the crew is on the surface of the planet(Earth) they must continue with the perplexities of re-adjustment and memories of previous timelines added to problems.
I'm sure the people that regulate Timelines like that on Relativity are at the top-of-the-heap. Because of the "Temporal Prime Directive' they didn't do anything except with that one ep. Relativity.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

You see the bullshit thing about this excuse, is that it's our future. They used to be us. If they're sane, prepared, and less than evil, they can probably tell if their actions are mistakingly coming across as a threat, if they are not actually threatening us, and because it's our future, we don't have to fight the future directly if we don't like what we see in the characters of these future people, we can just use clues to make their existence impossible.

Paradox the shit out of the 29th century till it cries uncle.

The past is magnificently dangerous to the future that they're morons to come across as anything but bright and beautiful, even if they're lying through their teeth.

Janeway has no obligation not to murder every human being on planet Earth called Braxton or Ducane, the second she gets home in an effort to stop the command staff of the Relativity or the Aeon from playing god with her.

Braxton is going to destroy the Earth, the entire Solar System, in at least one timeline, which makes Janeway complicit in that genocide for not systematically removing the Braxton family tree from human history.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

You see the bullshit thing about this excuse, is that it's our future. They used to be us.

A lot can happen in 800 years. How much of our society would be even remotely comprehensible to those living in 1211? I would think the further changes between now and the 29th century would be even more radical.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I agree, but you're taking the futures side.

That this one future's growth and evolution should be taken as a positive which the past is too stupid to properly distrust, that they default marvel amidst some cloud of cultural relativity.

Surely the true history of man has been about killing, destroying or oppressing anything that it doesn't understand?

If we CAN'T understand the future, why the hell should we trust it?

Do you expect the 13th century to be happy about what we get up to?

They would shit a brick unless we lied our asses off.

We expect savage ignorance and we would compensate for it with lies.

The 29th century visiting us or Janeway would expect savage ignorance and compensate for it too with lies.

Do we assume that anything Braxton or Ducane said was the truth?

Well, actually we assume that it was the whole truth.

Because unfortunately they were idiots.

How can Janeway trust the future to idiots?

She doesn't even trust the present to smart people.

Elsewhere in another fiction, a Doctor Who companion got caught behind enemy lines in 1943, and she was tortured for information by an SS Colonel because they thought she was part of the resitance, after a couple days with pliers and beatings, she's screaming about how she's a time traveller and from the future and that she'll tell them anything.

The interrogator however doesn't believe her because she claims to be from a future where the Nazis lost World War Two, which is (to him) impossible, so she cannot be from the future and must be a mad woman or a liar, because the Reich will last for a Thousand years.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

I agree, but you're taking the futures side.

Somebody has to.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

You see the bullshit thing about this excuse, is that it's our future. They used to be us.

A lot can happen in 800 years. How much of our society would be even remotely comprehensible to those living in 1211? I would think the further changes between now and the 29th century would be even more radical.

The basic ideas of justice would be recognisable in 1211 because most of them come from the Magna Carta and quite a few more from Aristotle.

Habeus Corpus - the right not to be detained without due cause originates from the 12th century. It's a principle we know exists upto the 24th Century (Picard Speech in "The Drumhead")

So apparently after 1300 years of allowing people to come and go as they please, the Federation decides that the "best" way to deal with crime, is to arrest people for crimes they haven't even done yet, for crimes they don't even know they intend to do?

Ok, so lets say that Captain Braxton (the one arrested for future crimes) is charged with the murder of the Voyager Crew? The Actus reus of murder is killing a creature of being within the Queens Peace (in English Law). First question that has to be asked, has there been a killing? No? Ok so no murder...

You can't prove attempted murder because he hasn't attempted it yet.

The idea sounds all good and science fictiony (in the future, they'll be able to arrest people when they know they're going to commit a crime! omfg that's waaaay beyond us!) but when you get down to brass tacks, it's horrific to think the Federation would ever contemplate that. Freedom does not exist when you can be walking down the street and temporal agents grab you and take you to prison to await trial for murder. "Who did I Kill" You ask, and when they tell you, you're confused, you don't know him, "You would have met him this morning" they explain.

You're about to go to prison, because no one has died, for a crime you had no intention of commiting (legal intention) against a man you haven't even met.

The 29th Century Federation is not a good place to live.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Do you remember the episode.

There were bodies and terrorism.

BOOM!

Lots of evidence.,

The same Braxtons did it.

One who might and one who did.

But here's what you're forgetting.

The 29th century can't stand temporal doppelgängers.

They favour integration.

So even though the Younger less crazy more innocent Braxton hadn't actually done anything, he was about to be physically inserted inside the criminal responsible for the timecrime and become just as guilty as his future self since the new composite Braxton isn't really either of those people he used to be completely anymore.

The integration possess is so extreme that it can cause people, the same person to radically change their weight and features if there's too much of a schism between the physical identities being integrated.

Considering that it's now impossible that young timecop Braxton could never become the older terrorist Braxton, that he could never commit the exact same Time Crimes now that the Time Cops knew what he was about to do, what they must of meant is that he will be guilty of the crimes of the other Braxton after they had been integrated.

Unless.

To preserve the timeline, the Time Cops induced Temporal Ephasure in Braxton, and programmed/edited his memories in the nuthouse which the older Braxton had been complaining about, to make sure everything does do-over the same to maintain the integrity of the timeline.

Railroaded.

But if "any" Braxton knows that this is standard operating procedure, how can he trust any instinct he generates, that whatever his plan is, it isn't what they need him to do to perpetuate the greater good?

(Always carry a 20 sided di with you, you'll never know when you'll need one.)

Was Braxton, any of the cross-time Braxtons, really guilty of a crime if he had been forced into committing it by the Time Cops?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ I don't agree that Ducane or the organization he served was evil. It may seem that way to us, but that is because of our primitive method of perceiving time, and our understanding of the law. In a society where time travel is commonplace, an entirely new method of doing such things would have to be invented. Our law today could not deal with time travel, but theirs can. Such a method of law, and enforcement of same, would seem incomprehensible to us, the fans. But not to the society of 800 years in the future...

You see the bullshit thing about this excuse, is that it's our future. They used to be us.

A lot can happen in 800 years. How much of our society would be even remotely comprehensible to those living in 1211? I would think the further changes between now and the 29th century would be even more radical.

The basic ideas of justice would be recognisable in 1211 because most of them come from the Magna Carta and quite a few more from Aristotle.

Habeus Corpus - the right not to be detained without due cause originates from the 12th century. It's a principle we know exists upto the 24th Century (Picard Speech in "The Drumhead")

So apparently after 1300 years of allowing people to come and go as they please, the Federation decides that the "best" way to deal with crime, is to arrest people for crimes they haven't even done yet, for crimes they don't even know they intend to do?

Ok, so lets say that Captain Braxton (the one arrested for future crimes) is charged with the murder of the Voyager Crew? The Actus reus of murder is killing a creature of being within the Queens Peace (in English Law). First question that has to be asked, has there been a killing? No? Ok so no murder...

You can't prove attempted murder because he hasn't attempted it yet.

The idea sounds all good and science fictiony (in the future, they'll be able to arrest people when they know they're going to commit a crime! omfg that's waaaay beyond us!) but when you get down to brass tacks, it's horrific to think the Federation would ever contemplate that. Freedom does not exist when you can be walking down the street and temporal agents grab you and take you to prison to await trial for murder. "Who did I Kill" You ask, and when they tell you, you're confused, you don't know him, "You would have met him this morning" they explain.

You're about to go to prison, because no one has died, for a crime you had no intention of commiting (legal intention) against a man you haven't even met.

The 29th Century Federation is not a good place to live.

100% agreed. In the same way that nuSpock isn't responsible for the actions of Spock Prime, or Captain Janeway isn't responsible for Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame", the Captain Braxton in command of the USS Relativity is not responsible for an action that a possible future version of him (his future having changed from that simply by knowing about it) had commited in some alternate timeline.