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So what if Nova Squadron had pulled off that starburst trick?

American movies have been showing us military mavericks for around three-quarters of a century. At least as far back as World War II were the idea of going against the old rulebook is what keeps you alive and defeats your enemies since the old rulebook to entirely out of date and will get you and your men killed. At least on film.
Again those films are people being Mavericks in combat or death situations where it's implied going by the rules will get you killed.

This was to put on a fancy stunt. Hardly a comparable scenario.

And btw people like military and police who are loose cannons and don't follow the rules and work as a team are usually fired or end up their career in a body bag.
 
All in all, it's not really about what the consequences would actually have been, it's about what a cocksure, young egomaniac might have thought they would've been. Surely, Starfleet has a longstanding history of maverick behavior, which could be distorted in a quasi-juvenile mind to suggest glory in those philosophies

Wes says it at the end "We thought we could do anything". It's a mindset common among the young & inexperienced. Locarno was full of himself & savvy enough to bolster 4 others into buying that self image & the pitch he sold them. The only one I have to really wonder about is Wes himself, since he has enough real experience such that he shouldn't be taken in so easily over a stunt like this

For a kid prodegy, they sure did make him socially inept... stunted even. I suppose it's not entirely unrealistic, but... wow
 
All in all, it's not really about what the consequences would actually have been, it's about what a cocksure, young egomaniac might have thought they would've been. Surely, Starfleet has a longstanding history of maverick behavior, which could be distorted in a quasi-juvenile mind to suggest glory in those philosophies

Yeah, I've been surprised this hasn't been better-understood. I would like to think a cadet who'd finished in a prestige squadron at the Academy would have a solid understanding that pulling off a stunt like that will bring his world crashing down around him, but I also can imagine the personality that figures an astounding success will see all things forgiven, and one who's compelling enough to get his squadron-mates to go along with it, especially when they're young enough to still be kind of stupid.
 
Yet we have a full range of them: two are sons of Starfleet officers (Albert at least was, and if Nick Locarno is just the nom de guerre for Tom Paris...), one is a boy genius who has adopted a veteran starship captain as his father figure, and one is a hardy war refugee. We don't know much about Hajar, but there's plenty of expertise there in the team about how Starfleet really does things...

I guess there are several different questions being asked here.

1) Could today's US armed forces operate on the basis of giving an elite team of hotheads special liberties like that, from training to active service to retirement? Well, maybe - the elite would be such a small element that its uselessness and downright counterproductiveness wouldn't cripple the service yet.
2) Are there real armed forces that operate that way? Sadly, many a South American service no doubt has gone through such a period, and some might still be in the throes of such.
3) Could Starfleet operate that way? Combining the above two would suggest yes. The service probably has to deal with worse discord than the occasional elite force, what with being at the beck and call of the immensely diverse UFP.
4) Does Starfleet operate that way, outside the fantasies of Nick Locarno? Many an episode and movie actually suggests it does - Nova Squadron and Red Squad exist, renegade behavior is rewarded, Pike in the nuMovies does sponsor nuKirks, and our regular heroic starship captains pull some pretty rogue stunts and survive.

It might not be the most efficient way to operate, but OTOH if the military serves the society by providing work for those who have trouble adjusting, it might just as well develop special ways of handling those with said trouble but also lots of ambition and skill.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yet we have a full range of them: two are sons of Starfleet officers (Albert at least was, and if Nick Locarno is just the nom de guerre for Tom Paris...), one is a boy genius who has adopted a veteran starship captain as his father figure, and one is a hardy war refugee. We don't know much about Hajar, but there's plenty of expertise there in the team about how Starfleet really does things...

I guess there are several different questions being asked here.

1) Could today's US armed forces operate on the basis of giving an elite team of hotheads special liberties like that, from training to active service to retirement? Well, maybe - the elite would be such a small element that its uselessness and downright counterproductiveness wouldn't cripple the service yet.
2) Are there real armed forces that operate that way? Sadly, many a South American service no doubt has gone through such a period, and some might still be in the throes of such.
3) Could Starfleet operate that way? Combining the above two would suggest yes. The service probably has to deal with worse discord than the occasional elite force, what with being at the beck and call of the immensely diverse UFP.
4) Does Starfleet operate that way, outside the fantasies of Nick Locarno? Many an episode and movie actually suggests it does - Nova Squadron and Red Squad exist, renegade behavior is rewarded, Pike in the nuMovies does sponsor nuKirks, and our regular heroic starship captains pull some pretty rogue stunts and survive.

It might not be the most efficient way to operate, but OTOH if the military serves the society by providing work for those who have trouble adjusting, it might just as well develop special ways of handling those with said trouble but also lots of ambition and skill.

Timo Saloniemi

I agree with what you said. The only thing is Special Operations Forces like SEALS, Rangers, etc actually tend to be MUCH tougher about following the rules and procedures than usual infantry units. It is expected you will work as a team without exception and anyone who shows maverick behavior or decides to not follow the rules are usually kicked out in rapid fashion.
 
I don't know where I saw this, maybe the DVD's special features interviews, where it was mentioned that a military (Air Force?) base was showing its pilots The First Duty as an example of how to be. Regardless of its portrayal of "maverick behavior", the episode's ultimate message hit home with the actual, real military.

In the DS9 episode Change of Heart,
Worf and Jadzia Dax were sent to extract a Cardassian defector from a jungle planet. Dax got injured and Worf chose to save her, resulting in mission failure. He earned a reprimand for "dereliction of duty," which Sisko said would likely cost Worf the chance of ever having his own command.

If, in Starfleet, the cost of a reprimand is losing any chance for command of a ship - surely Starfleet means business if they would not even make an exception for Worf, for goodness' sake. He's Worf! During wartime! Clearly the message here is "Duty before Character."

Surely the knowledge that a reprimand assures loss of a command wouldn't be much of a secret among the ranks. Which would mean that even cadets - especially high-flying ones - would likely be well aware of that high cost of not doing one's duty.

I don't believe Wesley's officer ambitions were ever mentioned; but surely he never said "never" to the prospect of his own command one day. Is it realistic for his character that he would have chosen a moment of maverick glory - ahem, Wesley "Mary Sue" Crusher - over the rational, honorable, clearly correct career move? That he was swayed by what - peer pressure, loyalty to friends, his need for belonging, or his need to distance himself from his familial role all laid out for him on Enterprise? He, the Mozart of Space, Time and Thought; he, the Wunderkind; he, the Acting Ensign while still in high school - rebelling against those expectations? Buckling under the stronger masculine personality of Locarno? Trying to get into Sito's skivvies? Did Wesley feel he still had something to prove? Or was it merely not wanting to let down his friends? Regardless - would he have risked a permanent ceiling on his ambitions for the sake of one pep rally?

What about the others - surely Locarno was "in it to win it". Would he have risked it? I know they did, but I hafta ask.

I guess you can suspend disbelief long enough to say they were overconfident and got stupid. Realistically, Starfleet is not an actual organization with consistent rules, repercussions or contexts.

I guess what I want to know is - who was out of touch with the in-universe reality about command-killer reprimands: freaking Wesley Crusher or freaking Benjamin Sisko?

:vulcan: (It's only a model)
 
Reprimands for different things might carry different weights in Starfleet. Though we still don't know for sure what Nova Squadron would have gotten had they pulled it off correctly with no deaths or other incidents.
 
The only thing is Special Operations Forces like SEALS, Rangers, etc actually tend to be MUCH tougher about following the rules and procedures than usual infantry units.
Indeed - but that's a different definition of elite. In the South American armed forces, and to a degree in prewar Italy, the hothead elite was to be found in the Air Force: instead of hardy and hard-working supersoldiers, these young officers were privileged with very little actual work, and while certain basic fighting skills relating to their special trade might have needed honing, the armed forces themselves believed that "citius, altius, fortius" would be beneficial, and officially supported competitiveness in trivial fields such as speed, stunt flying or even car racing. Also, the branch often was in a decisive position as regarded coups or the use of military assets in political blackmail - the exceptionally concentrated firepower of aircraft and all that. Inevitably, some very bloated egos would result.

Blue Angels instead of SEALs, then, but taken to certain extremes.

He, the Mozart of Space, Time and Thought; he, the Wunderkind; he, the Acting Ensign while still in high school - rebelling against those expectations?
Surely a person who at a young age knows he's superior to all others would be more likely to "rebel" than the average Joe?

Wesley has nothing to lose. If he doesn't make it in Starfleet, he can always become President of the UFP or Chief Whitebeard Emeritus of the Federation Academy of Sciences. OTOH, he's socially shy, and likes to view himself as a nice person; he's always willing to do things that make others pleased, especially when he is the only one capable of doing the specific things.

I'd say it's pretty consistent that he'd end up this exact way in these circumstances...

I guess what I want to know is - who was out of touch with the in-universe reality about command-killer reprimands: freaking Wesley Crusher or freaking Benjamin Sisko?
Sisko, I'd say. People in the TNG era live so long that there's no "career" to worry about. Even if one sticks with Starfleet for his whole life, that can mean half a dozen full, separate careers. Getting a bad rap in one of those doesn't mean facing difficulties in the next one. Worf has waltzed out of Starfleet a dozen times, with no known negative effect on his career at his inevitable return. If Sisko tries to create an obstacle for him, he can walk out on Sisko, become the protege of somebody else, and rise to heights from which he can crush Sisko if he's the spiteful type.

It's just that Worf is the better man, and sees no reason to talk back when Sisko is venting useless steam. It's not really even Sisko's command: he's still just the paper-pusher at the forward gunnery outpost and maintenance depot where no actual fighting takes place, while Worf is on an assignment to serve the overall war effort.

Reprimands for different things might carry different weights in Starfleet.
Reprimands from different people probably carry different weights, too. We frequently hear that specific officers in Starfleet have a reputation. We also learn certain people are on the fast lane to success, or enjoy special respect, and can opt to take others along. A positive word from Jellico may well significantly outweigh a negative one from Janeway, or whatever - until the latter's triumphant return from Delta, at which point she can (and apparently does) turn traitors into heroes with one signature, word or significant Look.

That's much how it works in the real world, too, in situations where there exists an optimally sized pool of personnel - not so many that blacklisted ones can stay blacklisted and idled, but not so few that nepotism rises above everything else and has to be dealt with. Starfleet might well hit the sweet spot (or a very broad stain) especially during the Dominion War - but also in the post-Borg, post-Border Wars "First Duty".

Timo Saloniemi
 
Blue Angels maybe?

Well that's a little bit different because the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds are all fully commissioned officers and veteran pilots, not cadets.

I've yet to see a Blue Angels show but for much of the Thunderbirds show there are four F-16's that do formation flying while the other two are often flying on their own and then will get together for high speed passes or one right side up and one upside down etc.... I don't know for sure but I think when the two are flying alone the can do tricks within reason and don't have to adhere to a very specific flight pattern.

I do know that when they do things like the head to head high speed passes they always do it parallel and away from the crowd for safety reasons in case they crash. If those two decided screw it and did one of those of passes directly over the crowd with one approaching from each side because it was more thrilling for the crowd that way.....They'd be gone as soon as their planes landed and probably court marshaled.

The Thunderbirds commander, nor any other top Air Force brass would be saying "I like how those two pilots weren't afraid to take risks and break the rules....give them a promotion and command of their own attack squadron" immediately."
 
Kirk's time on the Republic was a cadet cruise. He had the honorary rank of Ensign at that time. (Similar to Wesley Crusher's time on the Ent-D - Wes hadn't yet attended the Academy, yet he had the field rank of Ensign.)

We know this because of "Obsession," where Kirk said that the Farragut's Captain Garrovick was his CO "from the day [he] left the Academy." Kirk was a Lieutenant on the Farragut.

Or we could make the more logical assumption that Garrovick commanded Ensign Kirk on the Republic (whose Captain is never named), took a liking to Kirk, and then took Lt. Kirk with him to the Farragut (the name of the ship is not mentioned in that bit of dialogue from "Obsession").

That simplifies Kirk's backstory and gives him a more realistic career trajectory. But the Okudas had Kirk being both an Ensign and a Lieutenant before even graduating the Academy in the Star Trek Chronology, so now we're stuck with that version. :rolleyes:

I didn't think he was a Lt. before but after graduation.

My understanding was: he graduated, Ensign on the Republic, then promoted to Lt. takes a job as an instructor at the Academy before taking command of a smaller sized ship later. Gary said he was a walking stack of books with legs and if you're in one of his classes you either think or sink. That is not the description of a student, but an instructor.
 
Saavik could simply be a commissioned officer who has concluded her Academy studies but has now returned for second helpings, completing the additional Command training that culminates in this no-win scenario test. Nobody in the movies refers to Saavik as anything else besides Lieutenant; we have no reason to believe she should be a Cadet, say.

However, Kirk clearly was a Cadet when defeating Kobayashi Maru: McCoy claims so, and while the old man may make the occasional mistake with non-medical jargon, we need not assume this to be the case here. Kirk could simply have been the more ambitious individual, already taking the optional Command training while still undergraduate.

He would then remain at the Academy as instructor, eventually attaining the rank of Lieutenant - and some time after this promotion would finally move out of the Academy and into interstellar assignments, one of which would see him fail to save Captain Garrovick, his first post-Academy CO.

This would mean that when he as Ensign busted Finney, he was working in his instructor role. Possibly this is why he would feel obligated to report his friend Finney's little error rather than cover for him, no harm done? No favoritism allowed in the teachie-student setup, even if Jim and Ben were buddies and rank-mates.

But it would also mean that Kirk could have had any number of COs before Garrovick, as long as all of those commanded Kirk while he was still working for the Academy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Even had they pulled it off and no one got killed, it shouldn't have mattered. A banned maneuver is a banned maneuver. They would have been reprimanded if not outright expelled IRL. In the Trek universe, who the hell knows.
It's analogous to getting caught drinking and driving or seriously violating other traffic laws. It's a serious crime, but usually no jail sentence. If you do those things and someone dies, it can result in long jail terms.

I find this policy very illogical. The person did the same crime, took the same risk with other's lives. Whether someone gets hurt depends on luck. We adjust the penalties based on luck. Logically deterrent penalites should be based on things people have control of.
 
On the other side of the coin, there's very little in the world that we really do have control over. Driving sober is tantamount to murder under certain adverse but unforeseeable conditions - should purchasing a motor vehicle be punishable by death? Should working for money to purchase a motor vehicle amount to conspiracy to commit murder?

Failing to live safely is a crime we all are guilty of, to some degree. There are practical problems with controlling this crime, and those are so ubiquitous they essentially become philosophical problems in their own right as the consequence...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Even had they pulled it off and no one got killed, it shouldn't have mattered. A banned maneuver is a banned maneuver. They would have been reprimanded if not outright expelled IRL. In the Trek universe, who the hell knows.
It's analogous to getting caught drinking and driving or seriously violating other traffic laws. It's a serious crime, but usually no jail sentence. If you do those things and someone dies, it can result in long jail terms.

I find this policy very illogical. The person did the same crime, took the same risk with other's lives. Whether someone gets hurt depends on luck. We adjust the penalties based on luck. Logically deterrent penalites should be based on things people have control of.

That's like penalties for attempted murder are less than actual murder. That's just rewarding incompetence.
 
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