So, was Cochrane's warp drive concept something special, or wasn't it ?

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm missing things probably, but I don 't get the talk about ZC inventing transwarp, when humans don't have transwarp at any point in any series. The Borg have it

The theory is basically that warp drive advanced a lot over the years, and what was called "transwarp" in the 23rd century movie era was just called "warp" by the time of TNG in the 24th. It's just some supposition to explain why we don't hear the term again after STIII. Attributing it to Cochrane is just a way to further explain his revered status.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always felt that the significance of Cochrane's warp engine was two-fold. The first part was on a purely local level--Earth, in that it officially established Humans as no longer being alone and being part of a larger galactic community that was much closer than previously believed possible. That had an enormous impact on every aspect of Human society, IMO, and led to a number of rapid planet-wide reforms as the majority of Earth nations realized they had to get their act together--and maybe quickly.

The second part was on a much larger political and historical scope, in that it ultimately set Humans on a path that would lead to the formation of the Federation, which changed the balance of power in this part of the Galaxy. Without warp drive, Humans probably would still be akin to some country bumpkins piddlin' about in their backyard that maybe only the Vulcans were aware of as a curiosity. There would be no Federation or Starfleet, at least not like the ones we know.

 

[Timo]

ZC is honored by a much larger area than just Earth

How so? In all of Trek, the only people who even recognize the name are Earthlings. Or half-Earthlings at most.

This appears to be a complete non-issue. Zephram Cochrane is a statue, yes - but he's not famous beyond Earth and its offworld settlements. Heck, he's not even famous enough for Kirk to remember his face! So he has planets named after him? Big deal, there's Sherman's planet, too. (And O'Ryan has a whole constellation...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

It's simply a human-centric thing.
The same way humans still talk about Newton, Einstein and Hawking in the far future.

Dude, it's Star Trek. You have to add a completely fictional person in at the end there. How else are we going to know it's the far future?

But there wasn't anyone else at Data's poker game!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Zephram Cochrane is a statue, yes - but he's not famous beyond Earth and its offworld settlements. Heck, he's not even famous enough for Kirk to remember his face!

Kirk was seeing a much younger Cochrane than what history recorded. It's like seeing a young Albert Einstein with dark, neatly-combed hair, or a clean-shaven Abraham Lincoln. The man he met didn't fit Kirk's mental image of Cochrane, so it threw him.

Plus, Cochrane had been presumed dead for 150 years by that point. If you met someone who looked like a major historical figure, your first thought wouldn't be, "Oh my God, it's X come back to life!" At best, it might be, "Huh. This guy kind of looks like X."

But there wasn't anyone else at Data's poker game!

Well played, sir/madam. Well played.

 

[Longinus]

Was it ever established when and how Andorians, Tellarites or Denobulans got their warp drive?

 

[uniderth]

Interesting thoughts. I think there could be room to interpret Cochrane as developing FTL travel for all (local) species. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would directly contradict that. For any ancient FTL travel we could write that off as a lost technology.

We know Vulcanians were surveying nearby the Sol system in 2063. However, Vulcanis ("whatever" Eridani) is pretty near earth. Additionally Vulcanian lifespans are about 200 years. This means that a near lightspeed voyage to earth could be possible. The ship that detected the Phoenix could have been on a 40+ year survey mission.

 

[Captain Rob]

I have a somewhat different question.
Does Cochrane's warp drive require the ship to be moving fast or accelerating. Or can it be engaged in space while stationary as well. nuBSG style. We've seen in STIV that a Klingon bird of prey can engage it's warp drive at a relatively slow speed an in an atmosphere. The JJPrise is shown going to warp from a stationary position, Star Wars style. And leaving a stupid trail of pixie dust.
One of the best scenes ever in nuBSG was when the Galactica jumped into the atmosphere above New Caprica and started to fall. and then jumping back out after launching it's Vipers. I would love to see the Enterprise, any Enterprise, do something like that. The only thing is I'm sure that jumping into and out of an atmosphere would create the mother of all shock waves.

 

[Longinus]

Interesting thoughts. I think there could be room to interpret Cochrane as developing FTL travel for all (local) species. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would directly contradict that. For any ancient FTL travel we could write that off as a lost technology.

We know Vulcanians were surveying nearby the Sol system in 2063. However, Vulcanis ("whatever" Eridani) is pretty near earth. Additionally Vulcanian lifespans are about 200 years. This means that a near lightspeed voyage to earth could be possible. The ship that detected the Phoenix could have been on a 40+ year survey mission.

I really don't think that's plausible interpretation at all. The whole point was the Vulcans noticing the warp signature, that certainly implies they had warp themselves. Vulcan ship that surveyed Earth on 1957 most likely had warp as well. The ship came to rescue the lost Vulcans in three months, and they had a subspace radio with which they managed to sent a message to Vulcan. The same episode mentions Tellarite freighter, so Tellarites probably had warp already too, though that is not absolutely necessary. Vulcans also made contact with Andorians on 20th century, and they feared that Andorians could attack Vulcan. This does not necessarily mean that Andorians had warp drive, but strongly implies they did. (Do we know how far Andoria is from Vulcan?)

Anyway, that ended up answering my earlier question about early Earth allies (except Denobulans.) I kinda hoped that it would have been plausible that Earth could have provided warp technology to at least some of them, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

Not quite accurate as many alien species had Warp drives as early as 9th Century BC and before Cochrane's flight in the Phoenix (Titan II missile modified). These included the Vulcans, Klingons, Vissians. Borg, etc.. but the limiting Warp was 2.0.

It was Archer's engine that broke that warp barrier to achieve W2.5. After that, the original Enterprise could theoretically reach W5. It only reached W4.7 for safety reasons.

Others then started to follow this human lead up to Warps 6, 8, and then 9s within 2 centuries.

Most are on an equal footing at W9.6 max reliable.

I know a bunch of dinosaurs that would disagree, as well as quite a few other species across the galaxy (and well past the relatively tiny region that would have been exposed to human technology).

 

[Spot261]

Longinus agreed, we see just how much effort goes into creating and maintaining warp engines, effort that requires those carrying out said work to understand how the engines operate in ways incompatible with "lost technology"

Besides, why make that supposition in the first place? What in the canon suggests that Zephram Cochrane was so important to the galaxy at large? Why would we make such an enormous leap in logic without any ovious cause to do so?

 

[USS Triumphant]

The theory is basically that warp drive advanced a lot over the years, and what was called "transwarp" in the 23rd century movie era was just called "warp" by the time of TNG in the 24th. It's just some supposition to explain why we don't hear the term again after STIII. Attributing it to Cochrane is just a way to further explain his revered status.

Ah, but we do, with the Borg and the Delta Flyer, and in the novels with transwarp quantum slipstreaming. I don't think any of those are the same transwarp, though. I think "transwarp" is a term for any technology that still resembles warp drive but transcends the speeds feasible on the current warp scale (at the moment). Periodically, advances require recalibrating the warp scale commonly used to match current technology.

Another alternate explanation for why Cochrane might be highly regarded in this area of the galaxy is the nature of the Phoenix. Perhaps, up until Cochrane made his flight and word began to spread about it, construction of warp-capable ships was regarded as a project of such complexity that it would only be undertaken by a planetary or interplanetary government, interstellar corporation, or similar. Suddenly, here's this guy who built a workable ship in his backyard, more or less. Maybe he started a revolution of sorts, with explorers, traders, marauders, colonists, etc, of many species suddenly deciding that if he could do it, they could do it, too.

 

[uniderth]

I really don't think that's plausible interpretation at all. The whole point was the Vulcans noticing the warp signature, that certainly implies they had warp themselves.

Not necessarily. We built the instruments to measure gravity waves before we had confirmation they existed. It's possible they they noticed something on their sensors that matched their theoretical (perhaps somewhat based on fragmentary ancient records) knowledge of what a FTL signal would look like.

Vulcan ship that surveyed Earth on 1957 most likely had warp as well. ... I kinda hoped that it would have been plausible that Earth could have provided warp technology to at least some of them, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

I disregard Enterprise therefore, still find no major problems with my theory.

USS Triumphant I think you have a good idea with the same term "warp" being used to describe different systems of FTL travel.

It seems to me that spacewarp was the technology invented/discovered by Cochrane. Then in between The Cage and 18 years prior, the "Time Barrier" was broken and a new Timewarp FTL system was used(Pike and Spock both issue a command for "Timewarp, factor..."). Ironically over time, the "time" part of the phrase Timewarp gradually fell out of use. Since we already have a precedent, it would make sense that Excelsior's Transwarp could have undergone the same linguistic adjustment.

Perhaps in a strange twist of design and physics, the STIII - onward (trans)warp system required the same blue glowy grills as Cochrane's early spacewarp system. While April-Kirk's (time)warp system required none.

 

[Spot261]

I disregard Enterprise therefore, still find no major problems with my theory.

Which is fine in your own personal take, but it remains canon and therefore cannot be dismissed here. I'm not a fan myself but there's not much scope for discussion if we are all just picking and choosing what we accept or disregard.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It seems to me that spacewarp was the technology invented/discovered by Cochrane. Then in between The Cage and 18 years prior, the "Time Barrier" was broken and a new Timewarp FTL system was used(Pike and Spock both issue a command for "Timewarp, factor..."). Ironically over time, the "time" part of the phrase Timewarp gradually fell out of use. Since we already have a precedent, it would make sense that Excelsior's Transwarp could have undergone the same linguistic adjustment.

Yes. There was also a reference in "Space Seed" to some advancement in spaceflight technology that made sleeper ships obsolete. Marla McGivers (a historian) says in reference to the suspended animation tubes on Khan's ship, "I've seen old photographs of this. Necessary because of the time involved in space travel until about the year 2018. It took years just to travel from one planet to another."

She never says just what the advancement was, but it seems likely that it was intended by the writer to be some form of faster-than-light travel. The Trek timeline was obviously still very much in flux at that point, so we have to take that reference with a grain of salt, but it's interesting to contemplate.

And good news, everybody! We're getting better at space travel in just two years!

 

[Spot261]

Excellent, all that time in stasis is getting tiresome to be honest

 

[Anwar]

About "Transwarp", that's not a set term. Transwarp just refers to anything that's better than standard warp so it can mean many things.

 

[Timo]

Seconded. And as long as it's transwarp, it's probably unknown - the same thing as when we today speak of "dark energy" and "dark matter" for lack of a more detailed model, or when describing a bunch of competing models. But when it becomes practical technology, it terminologically ceases to be transwarp, and the goalposts simply get moved.

Does Cochrane's warp drive require the ship to be moving fast or accelerating. Or can it be engaged in space while stationary as well. nuBSG style.

We see accelerations to warp from a standstill in the TNG era at least - but they are still accelerations, no matter how fast. Cochrane's first test rig accelerated more slowly before reaching "critical velocity", whatever that means, and the refitted Enterprise also accelerated very, very slowly when engaging her untested warp drive. Then again, nuBSG ships simply accelerate very fast! It's not as if they just "jump", disappearing at A and appearing at B - there's actual visible forward motion involved, for a split second.

Vulcan ship that surveyed Earth on 1957 most likely had warp as well.

Moreover, one of her crew was a "warp field engineer" by profession!

There was also a reference in "Space Seed" to some advancement in spaceflight technology that made sleeper ships obsolete.

And then came references to sleeper ships remaining in operation, at least two full centuries beyond that date. But those were interstellar sleeper ships - so it would make sense for the 2018 improvement in spatial drives to relate to interplanetary flight exclusively. In which case a FTL breakthrough isn't a likely bet. Also, it takes a historian to inform Jim Kirk of the significance of 2018, so it clearly wasn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Richard Baker]

I think Cochrane is probably known to the universe outside of Earth simply because he was the one who unleashed Mankind to explore (and later dominate) the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Timo]

...But we're still beating a straw horse here: Cochrane is never really established as known, except to humans.

Timo Saloniemi