So the Regeneration limit jumps from 12 to 507...? SJA SPOILERS

[Sci]

Awesome! RTD Apologists....ASSEMBLE!

Don't be silly. It's the anti-RTD people who have a herd mentality around here.

Actually, it's fairly obvious that the fact that the Tenth Doctor can be an absolute hypocrite was an intentional part of the show. The Doctor isn't meant to be seen as always right.

According to Lord Davies, The Doctor is a godlike being a pure morality and brings wonder and joy to all the kids on Christmas.

Are you talking about the part where the Doctor overthrew the Prime Minister he'd previously predicted would bring about a new golden age? Or the part where he was depicted as having emotionally abandoned Sarah Jane Smith back in his fourth incarnation? Maybe you're talking about the part where Donna tells him he needs somebody, because when he's alone, he goes too far? Maybe you're thinking of that arc where the Doctor broke Martha's heart because he was too selfish to realize that having her as a companion was cruel when she was in love with him? Perhaps you're referring to the events of "Gridlock," where it is the Doctor's lack of faith that allows him to liberate a community that's been kept passive by its shared beliefs -- the triumph of atheism over religion? Or maybe you're talking about Joan Redfern's declaration that it was the Doctor's selfishness that led the Family of Blood to their victims? Perhaps you're thinking of the Doctor's sheer arrogance aboard the Titanic, shouting, "I CAN DO ANYTHING!" before Mister Cooper had to remind him that someone who chooses who lives and dies is by definition a monster? Maybe you're thinking of the Doctor's initial impulse to just abandon Pompey and do nothing to help anybody until Donna intervened? Or maybe you're referring to the legitimate criticism that the Doctor has inspired a hell of a lot of people to die in his name and to militarize themselves -- that he's turned numerous people into living weapons? Maybe you're talking about the Doctor's decision to abandon Captain Jack? Or maybe you're thinking about his attempt to set himself up as the final arbiter of fate, the Time Lord Victorious?

RTD's Tenth Doctor-era work is full of points where we're not supposed to think the Doctor is doing the right thing. And where religious beliefs are depicted as being stifling and skepticism as liberating.

"Dumbos think that I'm turning the Doctor into God, when clearly I'm saying that God doesn't exist, that we mythologize real people, events or aspirations into deities, and pay the price for it." Russell T. Davies, The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter, page 684.

So wait...he's calling anyone that analyzes his story as exactly how it's presented a "dumbo",

It would be more accurate to say that someone who thinks he's turning the Doctor into God is completely mis-reading the structure, is completely mis-reading how it's presented.

yet here's where The Doctor gains cosmic, Jesus-like proportions thanks to people praying to him and praising his name.

You mean that time the Doctor specifically attributed his powers to Humanity and praised their name? "Look what they can do!"

You are literally just making shit up now.

Much like the RTD Apologist Brigade? You only see what you want to see...

Please point me in the direction of the time I made up a matter of objective fact (such as how many episodes of DW TOS RTD has seen). I don't recall inventing facts the way you did.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Wow - it must be really nice to be telepathic and know exactly what RTD is thinking about everything!

Totally. And, to be honest, anyone can do it. All it takes is objective observation and the will not to follow a herd mentality.

Ten years of random assembled concepts, versus thirty-years of a set of concrete rules that had entire plots and character arcs based on their very existence? Hmmm. I weighed the two, and no, it's obvious they aren't comparable. Try again.

Oh and according to interviews/articles RTD first started watching during the Pertwee years and kept watching until the end.

And according to interviews, he was never going to bring The Master back, the Time Lords back, and is quite baffled that a line he wrote would get any kind of press, yet he claims in the same breath it was a "hoot" to write. So, I'm going to trust actions over words, you know?

Sorry to break it to you but you're just running with a different herd and there's very little sign of objectivity in your posts.

This.

I don't care if someone doesn't like RTD...though I'm always amazed they keep watching.

But, it's the rabidity of it that I find a little sad. And THEN, oh, noes, here comes the apologist... please. It makes it more pathetic to claim persecution.

 

[Mr Awe]

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Because when he says "fascinating", it means it annoys him and he's trying to ignore it. The reason this whole thing "baffles" him (which is a lie, since he never would have had a "hoot" by writing the line if he didn't think he'd get a reaction) is because he's only really watched probably two-five years of Doctor Who, and that was in the Tom Baker era. Everything else about the show he has no real knowledge of, and thus tends to believe it never happened. The RTD way.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, a most ineffective way to make a point. I never said any of those things. He said it fascinated him and my only point was that it puzzled me why he was fascinated.

So, you tell me what's so fascinating about this scenario. When the show mentions regenerations limits, it's most often been 13. Hence, that's the number that sticks in most people's mind.

To me, it is utterly straightforward and logical. And, that's not to say that there aren't contradictions. But, most often, 13 has been the number and that's what people remember. It's that simple.

If he's "fascinated" by that, imagination if something truly interesting came along!

Mr Awe

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Also, as further evidence of RTD not having a clue, he's misinterpreted that Pertwee quote entirely. The Third Doctor says he's lived through thousands of years, meaning he's traveled through that time. If that's Rustbucket's idea of a discrepancy and his rationale......

I, for one, would have no trouble disputing this particular interpretation of that quote.

If one of the Doctor's earliest trips in the TARDIS took him from Caesar's Ancient Rome to the Coliseum in 2415 A.D., by your explanation, the Doctor would claim that he had "lived" through all those intervening periods of time: thousands of years in one bound. This would be a misleading statement, and I doubt he would make such an inflated claim.

If I lived in California for a time, then flew to New York and started living there, I could not claim that by 'traveling' to New York from California that I had "lived through" all the states that I skipped over during my flight eastward. The analogy is not perfect, but it still makes my point.

I also agree with others who believe that some of the silly name-calling going on here makes the discussion seem more like something that would be heard on a middle-school playground and not a (hopefully) adult exchange of ideas. I would suggest that using terms like "Rustbucket" and "Russell T. Dismal" only serves to erode away some of the desired seriousness of your argument.

 

[Whofan]

Wasn't the Doctor ocassionally seen as a religious figure before RTD? The TV movie, for instance, has several religious images. The "Crown of thorns" for instance.

BTW Time Lord lore hasn't always been consistent in the series anyway. The Time Lords, when introduced, were pretty much all-powerful, but later on they became the "boring, dusty senators".

 

[Samurai8472]

The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember? And now, a gay reference......

Cue music written by Murray Gold and performed by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales.

AKA:Music that's not ashamed to admit that it WANTS to tug your bleeding heart strings and make the scene more emotional than it is

EDIT: I'm listening to Vale Decem as i'm typing this too lol


Call it the "RTD archangel network of influence"

 

[The]

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Because when he says "fascinating", it means it annoys him and he's trying to ignore it. The reason this whole thing "baffles" him (which is a lie, since he never would have had a "hoot" by writing the line if he didn't think he'd get a reaction) is because he's only really watched probably two-five years of Doctor Who, and that was in the Tom Baker era. Everything else about the show he has no real knowledge of, and thus tends to believe it never happened. The RTD way.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, a most ineffective way to make a point. I never said any of those things. He said it fascinated him and my only point was that it puzzled me why he was fascinated.

My sincere and genuine apology. It wasn't my intent to put words in your mouth. I simply mistyped the word while ranting. Nothing more or less, I promise.

And as for everyone else, calm down. If it hasn't been obvious already, I'm pretty much just busting your balls. That's all.

In all seriousness, I know the line was a joke, and I know it doesn't matter. And I know if someone wanted to come along next season and write a story that contradicts it completely, they can. It's irrelevant either way. I was just trying to be hyperbolic about it all to watch the reactions. I love cause and effect with some fans. It's like clockwork.

Do I like RTD? I don't know him. Do I like his work? Some of it. Not a lot. Am I glad he's gone? Yes, I think he ran out of steam by the end of Season Four. Is he overrated? Very. He also comes off slightly narcissistic (what writer isn't) and some of his answers to questions concerning his plot logic seem a little disingenuous. But then, that's PR for you.

So, please, let's not get worked up over something that's not really that important in the first place. It's still Doctor Who and I still love it...

 

[The]

The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember? And now, a gay reference......

Cue music written by Murray Gold and performed by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales.

AKA:Music that's not ashamed to admit that it WANTS to tug your bleeding heart strings and make the scene more emotional than it is

EDIT: I'm listening to Vale Decem as i'm typing this too lol

I love Vale Decem. I was sincerely surprised that was Murray Gold's original work, and not a classical piece that's been around for hundreds of years. I don't always like the over-trumpeting and loudness of Gold's work. But, there's no way you cannot say he's not talented. Of ALL the things I wish I could actually change about Classic Who when I watch it, it's never been the effects or acting. But, the music! All that crappy, instantly-dated, cheap-ass Casio keyboard synth-pop crap. God that's the single worst thing about all of Classic Who in my opinion. I wish they would hire Gold to re-score classic episodes.

Can you imagine Peter Davison gasping "...is this death?" with a Murray Gold orchestra behind it?

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Wow! I am not sure how I missed http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/10/...regenerations/ referenced by Candlelight in the OP, but I just watched the clip. Seeing and HEARING the scene in context makes it pretty clear (at least to me) how seriously I should take this '507' number that is causing all the heartburn with some fans.....

In regards to HEARING, in the last couple of posts, The is making some interesting observations about the music of Doctor Who. Well, keeping on that theme of music, just listen to the playful feel of the music in the background of this scene. Even the music is saying, "don't take what you are hearing here too seriously!"

 

[Starkers]

I love Vale Decem. I was sincerely surprised that was Murray Gold's original work, and not a classical piece that's been around for hundreds of years. I don't always like the over-trumpeting and loudness of Gold's work. But, there's no way you cannot say he's not talented. Of ALL the things I wish I could actually change about Classic Who when I watch it, it's never been the effects or acting. But, the music! All that crappy, instantly-dated, cheap-ass Casio keyboard synth-pop crap. God that's the single worst thing about all of Classic Who in my opinion. I wish they would hire Gold to re-score classic episodes.

Can you imagine Peter Davison gasping "...is this death?" with a Murray Gold orchestra behind it?

I think it'd be awful. Not because I particularly hate Gold's music, I just think the new series has sometimes relied too heavily on music to stir emotion that should have come from the acting/direction/script...

I mean can you imagine the end of Earthshock with a stirring Murray Gold soundtrack? Sometimes silence can be the most emotive sound of all.

 

[The]

Silence is fine. Zoom! Bang! Pop! on a Casio in the 70's/80's is not...

 

[Sci]

The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember? And now, a gay reference......

Cue music written by Murray Gold and performed by the BBC National Orchestra of Wales.

AKA:Music that's not ashamed to admit that it WANTS to tug your bleeding heart strings and make the scene more emotional than it is

EDIT: I'm listening to Vale Decem as i'm typing this too lol

I love Vale Decem. I was sincerely surprised that was Murray Gold's original work, and not a classical piece that's been around for hundreds of years. I don't always like the over-trumpeting and loudness of Gold's work.

One of the interesting things about Series Five, I think, was how Gold's scoring habits changed. His work in Series Five strikes me as being more subdued, less big and bombastic. The only episode I recall being particularly bombastic in its score was "Victory of the Daleks" (which, let's face is, is the sort of episode that's just too inherently bombastic NOT to have such a score). For the rest of the season, his work was much quieter and more subtle, but no less effective.

To me, it's like Gold has adapted his scoring habits to fit into the kinds of writing that the showrunners produce. RTD's Doctor Who is big and loud and wears its heart on its sleeve, and so Gold writes his scores that way. Moffat's is quieter, more subtle, is more of a fairy tale, and Gold seems to have changed his style to fit Moffat's.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Silence is fine. Zoom! Bang! Pop! on a Casio in the 70's/80's is not...

Listen to this:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djFYQgRwCMw[/yt]

 

[Starkers]

Silence is fine. Zoom! Bang! Pop! on a Casio in the 70's/80's is not...

Hey you're talking to a guy who loves John Carpenter soundtracks here

I actually think some of the classic soundtracks are underated, but yeah I know what you mean about some others of them.

 

[Whofan]

I don't think WHO used electronic soundtracks until the 80s, with a few exceptions. Also most of the 60s music was stock music, with a few exceptions like the theme tune.

Even then, the Howell and Hulke soundtracks were mostly decent-it wasn't until Keff McCollugh and the McCoy years that things got out of hand. (Although Mark Ayres did a few decent tracks for Ghost Light and Curse of Fenric.)



Also regarding Murray's music RTD Vs. Moffat, it's interesting to note that the Doctor's own themes are the opposite-the RTD-era Doctor theme, or "Flavia's theme"-is more quiet, while Smith's/Moffat's is very adventurous and fast-paced.

 

[Sci]

Also regarding Murray's music RTD Vs. Moffat, it's interesting to note that the Doctor's own themes are the opposite-the RTD-era Doctor theme, or "Flavia's theme"-is more quiet, while Smith's/Moffat's is very adventurous and fast-paced.

That's an interesting point -- I hadn't thought of that!

I do hope that the RTD-era "Doctor's Theme" comes back. Not that I don't love the Eleventh Doctor theme -- does it have a proper name yet? -- but because I think that using "The Doctor's Theme" as a leitmotif for the character of the Doctor, no matter his incarnation, really captures a sense of continuity and mystery about him that gets lost if you only use a different motif for each incarnation. I'm hoping the Eleventh Doctor theme ends up being like "All the Strange, Strange Creatures" -- an incarnation-specific motif that gets used in conjunction with an over-all Doctor motif.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I don't think WHO used electronic soundtracks until the 80s, with a few exceptions. Also most of the 60s music was stock music, with a few exceptions like the theme tune.

Have you listened to a Pertwee story?

 

[JoeZhang]

Out of interest - when was the 13 limit last mentioned on the show?

 

[The]

Somewhere in the 80's. The last time I remember it being a direct plot-point was the 5th Doctor's Mawdryn Undead. I don't remember if anyone mentioned it after that before it halted in 1989. McGann's Doctor specifically mentions he has Thirteen lives in the 1996 TV Movie (a line they filmed wrong, and had to re-dub over the line with the correct 13 number). I know the anniversary shows and commentary media have made it a point to discuss the Thirteen Limit many times, other than that. Plus, the books and all the alternate media. But, yeah, my best guess would be 1983. Which means there was a relative sum of ten years worth of programming that didn't directly mention it...

 

[HappyDayRiot]

The Five Doctors definitely mentioned it.