So the Regeneration limit jumps from 12 to 507...? SJA SPOILERS

[Robert D. Robot]

....He wasn't blowing off a fact. He (RTD) was making a joke.
The Doctor and company were in danger, and the kid is asking stupid questions. Perhaps he only deserves stupid answers...

....How is he shitting on the program? Seriously. How is RTD shitting on the program by having the Doctor say a LINE?

I tend to agree with this logic. I have not seen this episode, but -from what I can glean by reading what seemingly meager evidence has been presented here regarding the actual dialog and context of the situation- it sounds like the Doctor could very well be simply making a smart aleck remark or joke in a tense situation.

Seems like this sort of remark would be in character for the Doctor, as I have come to understand the Doctor's reactions to danger, especially in his past incarnations.

Perhaps some folks would not get so worked up if the Doctor had signaled *THIS IS A JOKE* by grinning and offering the kid a Jelly Baby following his '507' answer?

 

[VDCNI]

Assuming for the moment that 507 is not a joke or a lie, perhaps during the Time War, the Time Lords removed the regeneration limit, so that the Time Lords could participate -- eternally, if necessary -- in the war.

Removed the limit? The logical way it would work is that they give out extra cycles somehow, not that they manage to magically impose a limit so any Time Lord dying anywhere for the twelfth time is done for because they use their magic to stop him having another go on the regeneration-go-round. There's a good story to be told in the Doctor getting more lives, and I just can't believe the number of people who think that sort of unimaginative illogical nonsense is any kind of satisfactory explanation. Is this what 5 years of Russell T Dismal has done to people?

I wouldn't be interested in that at all. My main issue with the relaunched series is they felt the need to do these ongoing storylines and series finales. I want Doctor Who to be about the Doctor & companion arriving somewhere new every story and figuring out what's going on.

When Doctor Who is just about the Doctor or the timelords it stops being the show it was created to be. The original limit was hardly the work of great imagination anyway - it was just a plot point to make the story work.

The story is the thing for me not some elaborate explanation of why there isn't a limit anymore just to keep the fans happy.

 

[Bones2]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

 

[Pauln6]

I have seen the episode now and it was a joke - an in-joke if Davies did indeed comment on 507 regenerations in a tongue-in-cheek fashion during an interview. He's just messing with the nerds.

I'm also not his greatest fan but this series of SJA is really rather good. I enjoyed the others but the dialogue is snappier (I loved Rani's reaction to Clyde disparaging the height of Grosk (or wotever he was called)) and there are some nice in-jokes. Katy Manning was a delight and it was nice to see some flashbacks to classic Who. It's still clearly written as a children's program but they have started putting more in for the 'grown-ups'.

 

[VDCNI]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show - really!? How many times has it actually been important to a story being told?

Central to the shows mythology perhaps but that isn't the same thing. Even then - it's been made more of in the spin offs than on TV. It was only introduced half way through the existence of the TV series than a handfull of references were made to it after that - most of them in the 80's when we got a continuity overdose about everything. To the point when it seemed like every companion had gone on some kind of course about the Doctor and his previous travels.

Anyway I can quite happily do without the Doctor getting extra regenerations because everyone around the world chanted his name at the same time or some annoying Scottish girl dreamt him back into life.

Plus the show has already given us a perfectly simple way of getting round it - an new regeneration cycle as established over 25 years ago!

 

[Mr Awe]

The line was a joke!!!

Sadly your cry will go unnoticed. Even Russell said that fans tend to take some things as gospel while disregarding other stuff.

But some people do get tremendously worried by that figure, don’t they? As if when we get to the end of the thirteenth Doctor’s time, the BBC are gonna cancel the series, regardless of how well it’s doing.
They do, I know. When they came over here to launch “The Eleventh Hour”, I went along to this screening in LA and journalists put their hands up, and one of the first questions was, “What will happen when he reaches the thirteenth regeneration?”



There’s a fascinating academic study to be made out of how some facts stick and some don’t – how Jon Pertwee’s Doctor could say he was thousands of years old, and no-one listens to that, and yet someone once says he’s only got thirteen lives, and it becomes lore. It’s really interesting, I think. That’s why I’m quite serious that that 507 thing won’t stick, because the 13 is too deeply ingrained in the public consciousness. But how? How did that get there? It’s fascinating, it’s really weird. Anyway, that’ll be my book in my retirement!

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Mr Awe

 

[Bones2]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show - really!? How many times has it actually been important to a story being told?

Central to the shows mythology perhaps but that isn't the same thing. Even then - it's been made more of in the spin offs than on TV. It was only introduced half way through the existence of the TV series than a handfull of references were made to it after that - most of them in the 80's when we got a continuity overdose about everything. To the point when it seemed like every companion had gone on some kind of course about the Doctor and his previous travels.

Anyway I can quite happily do without the Doctor getting extra regenerations because everyone around the world chanted his name at the same time or some annoying Scottish girl dreamt him back into life.

Plus the show has already given us a perfectly simple way of getting round it - an new regeneration cycle as established over 25 years ago!

Of course it's central to the show. The Doctor's the main character, and he has 13 lives. Each time he regenerates, there's a tragedy there as we not only lose a version of him (tragic unless it's one you don't like, of course), but he gets closer to the end of life. It's especially prescient as we're now getting closer to the last. If we make the Doctor effectively immortal, then his lecturing to people like Lumic or Borusa or whoever it is trying to be immortal is completely hypocritical. I'm not saying I'm against the Doctor going beyond 13 incarnations, but to just dismiss it with some one-line throwaway bollocks when there's potential for a thoughtful, well told, and satisfying story in there really is the height of stupidity. And brushing it under the carpet is of immense disrespect to the writers who made much of the mythos the show still relies on.

 

[Professor Zoom]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show? Are you kidding me?

1. The TARDIS is central to the show. The Doctor is central to the show. When was the LAST time they mentioned the limit, specifically at 13? And before that? It's not central.

2. IT WAS A JOKE. NOTHING HAS BEEN BRUSHED ASIDE.

Take a breath. Look at the episode again. Consider the situation. Clyde asked a very unimportant question when there was a heck of a lot MORE important things going on. The Doctor was asked a stupid question and gave a stupid response. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm beginning to suspect, Bones, that RTD reads your posts and purposefully does this to wind you up. And you fall for it every time.

 

[VDCNI]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show - really!? How many times has it actually been important to a story being told?

Central to the shows mythology perhaps but that isn't the same thing. Even then - it's been made more of in the spin offs than on TV. It was only introduced half way through the existence of the TV series than a handfull of references were made to it after that - most of them in the 80's when we got a continuity overdose about everything. To the point when it seemed like every companion had gone on some kind of course about the Doctor and his previous travels.

Anyway I can quite happily do without the Doctor getting extra regenerations because everyone around the world chanted his name at the same time or some annoying Scottish girl dreamt him back into life.

Plus the show has already given us a perfectly simple way of getting round it - an new regeneration cycle as established over 25 years ago!

Of course it's central to the show. The Doctor's the main character, and he has 13 lives. Each time he regenerates, there's a tragedy there as we not only lose a version of him (tragic unless it's one you don't like, of course), but he gets closer to the end of life. It's especially prescient as we're now getting closer to the last. If we make the Doctor effectively immortal, then his lecturing to people like Lumic or Borusa or whoever it is trying to be immortal is completely hypocritical. I'm not saying I'm against the Doctor going beyond 13 incarnations, but to just dismiss it with some one-line throwaway bollocks when there's potential for a thoughtful, well told, and satisfying story in there really is the height of stupidity. And brushing it under the carpet is of immense disrespect to the writers who made much of the mythos the show still relies on.

No it's not - the central parts of the show are the character of the doctor, the tardis, companion(s) and going to new places/times. It wasn't even part of the show for the first 10-15 years!

I'm not old enough to have watched the first 3 regenerations on transmission but even so I can still watch & appreciate the tragedy of those 'deaths'. I don't see why him getting to the end makes it any worse given that we know they won't kill him off permanantly.

Do I care if it makes him functionally immortal - no because as soon as they came up with regeneration he became that anyway.

Plus he can still lecture the likes of Lumic because it's not the quest for immortality that makes them wrong - it's how they chose to go about it, the disregard they have for other peoples lives. Anyway it wouldn't be the first time The Doctor's been a little bit hypocritical!

 

[Bones2]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show? Are you kidding me?

1. The TARDIS is central to the show. The Doctor is central to the show. When was the LAST time they mentioned the limit, specifically at 13? And before that? It's not central.

2. IT WAS A JOKE. NOTHING HAS BEEN BRUSHED ASIDE.

Take a breath. Look at the episode again. Consider the situation. Clyde asked a very unimportant question when there was a heck of a lot MORE important things going on. The Doctor was asked a stupid question and gave a stupid response. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm beginning to suspect, Bones, that RTD reads your posts and purposefully does this to wind you up. And you fall for it every time.

This isn't about RTD's fucking stupid attempt at a joke; there's no way anyone's ever taking that seriously, not even the man himself. I'm discussing how people would want the issue dealt with - and it is a big one. I'm just fairly aghast that people actually think a throwaway bit of nonsense would be a better way to sort the issue than a good story (if new Who's even capable of them, though things have at least started to get better now Captain Marvellous has finally fucked off).

 

[The]

If we make the Doctor effectively immortal, then his lecturing to people like Lumic or Borusa or whoever it is trying to be immortal is completely hypocritical. I'm not saying I'm against the Doctor going beyond 13 incarnations, but to just dismiss it with some one-line throwaway bollocks when there's potential for a thoughtful, well told, and satisfying story in there really is the height of stupidity. And brushing it under the carpet is of immense disrespect to the writers who made much of the mythos the show still relies on.

Couldn't agree more. The RTD Apologists will never believe it's wrong to disrespect the creators that worked on the show forty years before Russel waddled up, simply because RTD has just as little class. And, yes, much like the egomaniac Ten became under RTD, it is incredibly hypocritical of him to preach to all of these crazies about immortality. But, hey, that doesn't factor into the RTD world of writing. The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember? And now, a gay reference......

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Because when he says "fascinating", it means it annoys him and he's trying to ignore it. The reason this whole thing "baffles" him (which is a lie, since he never would have had a "hoot" by writing the line if he didn't think he'd get a reaction) is because he's only really watched probably two-five years of Doctor Who, and that was in the Tom Baker era. Everything else about the show he has no real knowledge of, and thus tends to believe it never happened. The RTD way.

 

[Bones2]

Also, as further evidence of RTD not having a clue, he's misinterpreted that Pertwee quote entirely. The Third Doctor says he's lived through thousands of years, meaning he's traveled through that time. If that's Rustbucket's idea of a discrepancy and his rationale for getting away with making Eccleston the same age as the Doctor supposedly was in Revelation of the Daleks (whereas previously, wherever his age was stated there was a clear progression throughout the series), then I'm just glad he's gone and not able to break the show any more. Only, he isn't it seems. It's like he can't cope with the fact he's not in charge now. So he writes an SJA with Matt Smith that spends a lot of time wittering on about Tennant and having a go at the regeneration limit, and he does still does interviews about DW and his stupid views on it. I hope he's never allowed near the main show of the Doctor again.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

They can take this offhanded answer at face value, or they can gin up a complicated story to enable the Doctor to keep regenerating - either way, he will keep on going.

 

[VDCNI]

If we make the Doctor effectively immortal, then his lecturing to people like Lumic or Borusa or whoever it is trying to be immortal is completely hypocritical. I'm not saying I'm against the Doctor going beyond 13 incarnations, but to just dismiss it with some one-line throwaway bollocks when there's potential for a thoughtful, well told, and satisfying story in there really is the height of stupidity. And brushing it under the carpet is of immense disrespect to the writers who made much of the mythos the show still relies on.

Couldn't agree more. The RTD Apologists will never believe it's wrong to disrespect the creators that worked on the show forty years before Russel waddled up, simply because RTD has just as little class. And, yes, much like the egomaniac Ten became under RTD, it is incredibly hypocritical of him to preach to all of these crazies about immortality. But, hey, that doesn't factor into the RTD world of writing. The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember? And now, a gay reference......

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Because when he says "fascinating", it means it annoys him and he's trying to ignore it. The reason this whole thing "baffles" him (which is a lie, since he never would have had a "hoot" by writing the line if he didn't think he'd get a reaction) is because he's only really watched probably two-five years of Doctor Who, and that was in the Tom Baker era. Everything else about the show he has no real knowledge of, and thus tends to believe it never happened. The RTD way.

Wow - it must be really nice to be telepathic and know exactly what RTD is thinking about everything!

And sorry, which past creators is he meant to be disrspecting - not Verity Lambert or David Whiticker or Terry Nation or any of the many, many other people who worked on stories which made absolutely no mention of a regeneration limit! So we're really only talking Robert Holmes and Phillip Hinchcliffe who of course were once accused of disrespecting the work of their predecessors by destroying the mystique of the Time Lords in The Deadly Assassin! Oh and they also were quite happy to suggest the doctor had many previous lives before Hartnell despite that contridicting previous stories, stories everyone remembered from a few years previously.

Oh and according to interviews/articles RTD first started watching during the Pertwee years and kept watching until the end.

 

[Professor Zoom]

So you'd prefer something that's been central to the show for a very long time is just brushed aside nonsensically rather than dealt with with a hopefully interesting story? Because God knows they've got so many other brilliant stories to write. Why have something that deals with something as important as that when we could have something truly brilliant like another Hungry Earth or Lodger.

Central to the show? Are you kidding me?

1. The TARDIS is central to the show. The Doctor is central to the show. When was the LAST time they mentioned the limit, specifically at 13? And before that? It's not central.

2. IT WAS A JOKE. NOTHING HAS BEEN BRUSHED ASIDE.

Take a breath. Look at the episode again. Consider the situation. Clyde asked a very unimportant question when there was a heck of a lot MORE important things going on. The Doctor was asked a stupid question and gave a stupid response. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm beginning to suspect, Bones, that RTD reads your posts and purposefully does this to wind you up. And you fall for it every time.

This isn't about RTD's fucking stupid attempt at a joke; there's no way anyone's ever taking that seriously, not even the man himself.

REALLY? Because over 150 posts disagree with that. EVEN YOU keep saying, "he's brushing HISTORY aside."

That sounds like you're taking it seriously.

I'm discussing how people would want the issue dealt with - and it is a big one. I'm just fairly aghast that people actually think a throwaway bit of nonsense would be a better way to sort the issue than a good story (if new Who's even capable of them, though things have at least started to get better now Captain Marvellous has finally fucked off).

Most people AREN'T saying that. Most people are saying to people WHO ARE taking the line seriously, that it's not a big DEAL. The LINE ITSELF, it's not a BIG DEAL.

I know you hate RTD, I get that. I truly do. But don't let your hatred BLIND you.

This was a throwaway line. Not the end of the world. Not RTD's method for getting around the regeneration limit.

It's not any of those things.

But if you don't think this thread is about how YOU FEEL ABOUT THE LINE, you seriously need to reread the thread.

You are having a cow about the line. You aren't discussing the limit. You are saying RTD has ruined teh everythign because of this line.

 

[VDCNI]

Also, as further evidence of RTD not having a clue, he's misinterpreted that Pertwee quote entirely. The Third Doctor says he's lived through thousands of years, meaning he's traveled through that time. If that's Rustbucket's idea of a discrepancy and his rationale for getting away with making Eccleston the same age as the Doctor supposedly was in Revelation of the Daleks (whereas previously, wherever his age was stated there was a clear progression throughout the series), then I'm just glad he's gone and not able to break the show any more. Only, he isn't it seems. It's like he can't cope with the fact he's not in charge now. So he writes an SJA with Matt Smith that spends a lot of time wittering on about Tennant and having a go at the regeneration limit, and he does still does interviews about DW and his stupid views on it. I hope he's never allowed near the main show of the Doctor again.

Yes how has the show not been cancelled given that - oh my god, they changed the Doctor from being in the 1000's to around 900 again.

I'm surprised the BBC didn't get burned down by angry fans.

How is it possible to take any story seriously after that!!!!!!!

 

[Sci]

And, yes, much like the egomaniac Ten became under RTD, it is incredibly hypocritical of him to preach to all of these crazies about immortality. But, hey, that doesn't factor into the RTD world of writing.

Actually, it's fairly obvious that the fact that the Tenth Doctor can be an absolute hypocrite was an intentional part of the show. The Doctor isn't meant to be seen as always right.

The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember?

"Dumbos think that I'm turning the Doctor into God, when clearly I'm saying that God doesn't exist, that we mythologize real people, events or aspirations into deities, and pay the price for it." Russell T. Davies, The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter, page 684.

I don't think that RTD understands that the bulk of the references to the Doctor's regenerations indicates a limit of 13. There are contradictions but, for the most part, 13 is indicated as the limit. That's why it stuck and others didn't stick, it was said the most often. I'm not sure why that is so fascinating to him?

Because when he says "fascinating", it means it annoys him and he's trying to ignore it. The reason this whole thing "baffles" him (which is a lie, since he never would have had a "hoot" by writing the line if he didn't think he'd get a reaction) is because he's only really watched probably two-five years of Doctor Who, and that was in the Tom Baker era. Everything else about the show he has no real knowledge of, and thus tends to believe it never happened. The RTD way.

You are literally just making shit up now.

 

[The]

Wow - it must be really nice to be telepathic and know exactly what RTD is thinking about everything!

Totally. And, to be honest, anyone can do it. All it takes is objective observation and the will not to follow a herd mentality.

And sorry, which past creators is he meant to be disrspecting - not Verity Lambert or David Whiticker or Terry Nation or any of the many, many other people who worked on stories which made absolutely no mention of a regeneration limit! So we're really only talking Robert Holmes and Phillip Hinchcliffe who of course were once accused of disrespecting the work of their predecessors by destroying the mystique of the Time Lords in The Deadly Assassin! Oh and they also were quite happy to suggest the doctor had many previous lives before Hartnell despite that contridicting previous stories, stories everyone remembered from a few years previously.

Ten years of random assembled concepts, versus thirty-years of a set of concrete rules that had entire plots and character arcs based on their very existence? Hmmm. I weighed the two, and no, it's obvious they aren't comparable. Try again.

Oh and according to interviews/articles RTD first started watching during the Pertwee years and kept watching until the end.

And according to interviews, he was never going to bring The Master back, the Time Lords back, and is quite baffled that a line he wrote would get any kind of press, yet he claims in the same breath it was a "hoot" to write. So, I'm going to trust actions over words, you know?

 

[The]

Awesome! RTD Apologists....ASSEMBLE!

Actually, it's fairly obvious that the fact that the Tenth Doctor can be an absolute hypocrite was an intentional part of the show. The Doctor isn't meant to be seen as always right.

According to Lord Davies, The Doctor is a godlike being a pure morality and brings wonder and joy to all the kids on Christmas.

The Doctor died on the cross and saved us from our sins, remember?

"Dumbos think that I'm turning the Doctor into God, when clearly I'm saying that God doesn't exist, that we mythologize real people, events or aspirations into deities, and pay the price for it." Russell T. Davies, The Writer's Tale: The Final Chapter, page 684.

So wait...he's calling anyone that analyzes his story as exactly how it's presented a "dumbo", yet here's where The Doctor gains cosmic, Jesus-like proportions thanks to people praying to him and praising his name. So, God doesn't exist, but The Doctor isn't God, and yet....no, sorry Russel. I know you like to think your "ideas" sound clever and "in the moment". But, really, that makes fuck-all of any sense. Now I think you're a lot dumber than previously. Yikes.

You are literally just making shit up now.

Much like the RTD Apologist Brigade? You only see what you want to see...

 

[VDCNI]

Wow - it must be really nice to be telepathic and know exactly what RTD is thinking about everything!

Totally. And, to be honest, anyone can do it. All it takes is objective observation and the will not to follow a herd mentality.

And sorry, which past creators is he meant to be disrspecting - not Verity Lambert or David Whiticker or Terry Nation or any of the many, many other people who worked on stories which made absolutely no mention of a regeneration limit! So we're really only talking Robert Holmes and Phillip Hinchcliffe who of course were once accused of disrespecting the work of their predecessors by destroying the mystique of the Time Lords in The Deadly Assassin! Oh and they also were quite happy to suggest the doctor had many previous lives before Hartnell despite that contridicting previous stories, stories everyone remembered from a few years previously.

Ten years of random assembled concepts, versus thirty-years of a set of concrete rules that had entire plots and character arcs based on their very existence? Hmmm. I weighed the two, and no, it's obvious they aren't comparable. Try again.

Oh and according to interviews/articles RTD first started watching during the Pertwee years and kept watching until the end.

And according to interviews, he was never going to bring The Master back, the Time Lords back, and is quite baffled that a line he wrote would get any kind of press, yet he claims in the same breath it was a "hoot" to write. So, I'm going to trust actions over words, you know?

Sorry to break it to you but you're just running with a different herd and there's very little sign of objectivity in your posts.

So because a lot of the time in the 80's they preferred to reference past stories instead of coming up with new ones that means we should take those stories more seriously than those written for Hartnell, Troughton or Pertwee!? Doctor Who is about randomly assembled concepts - that's the point of the show- that he can go anywhere. I prefer to embrace the whole of Doctor Who - not just the bits that fit in with my personal view of the show.

Now you really are desperate - a show runner trying to keep plots under wrapped is lying now is he . Oh and what are these actions that are supposed to prove he never watched anything but a few years of Baker?