So the Regeneration limit jumps from 12 to 507...? SJA SPOILERS

[Davros]

Or the Doctor's false pretending to have earlier lives is what made the fishbowl spark.

When did the Doctor ever do that?

There's a load of ideas out there, which is why anyone citing it as meaning there are pre-Hartnell Doctors

There is no evidence in the show of any pre Hartnell Doctors.

(especially considering The Three Doctors) is tiresome and wrong.

The Three Doctors was fine, it was the Five Doctors which sucked.

As for the scene in Morbius, that's very much open to interpretation. Especially since it was stated in The Three Doctors that they were the first three.

I can only see those other faces in Morbius as being his earlier incarnations and not those of the Doctor.

But that's retconning; without wanting to reopen an old argument, the logic of the scene is that they're pre-Hartnell Doctors, and as an eight year old that's what I thought at the time. I was rather confused when Deadly Assassin came along later that year, but also accepted the 'new fact', as most of fandom did.

No retconning on my part. I have always viewed those other faces as anything but those of Morbius and have trouble how anybody could consider them the Doctor since it had already been established that Hartnell was the first.

 

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, we all know damn well that when the time comes, the Doctor is going to regenerate past his 13th life. Precedent has been set for Time Lords living past their 13th life in the classic series, like the Master. To impose the limit to begin with was a mistake, but I suppose it was a necessary plot point to make The Deadly Assassin work. It is kind of interesting that this is the first time since Doctor Who's return in 2005 that a limit to regeneration has been mentioned.

 

[diankra]

No retconning on my part. I have always viewed those other faces as anything but those of Morbius and have trouble how anybody could consider them the Doctor since it had already been established that Hartnell was the first.

Well, without be rude enough to ask your age, I suspect it does depend on how old you were in 1976. I was just short of nine when Morbius went out, and assumed they were pre-Hartnell Doctors, then later in the year Deadly Assassin came along.. and then Morbius was repeated just so even the youngest kid could spot the clash (Morbius and Pyramids were both repeated over Christmas 76 in between Assassin and Face of Evil).
I'm not a massive fan of the way RTD got self-indulgent, but I do think it's a bit unfair to get at him over what is probably the Doctor having fun with Clyde over this.
Robert Holmes, arguably the best writer and script editor in the series' history, played b-gg-r all attention to continuity, even within his own contributions to the show, when it got in the way of a good story (eg: Genesis, Pyramids of Mars, Hand of Fear, Talons/Invisible Enemy and Sunmakers and others - all of which can be retconned, but...).

 

[Bones2]

Or the Doctor's false pretending to have earlier lives is what made the fishbowl spark.

When did the Doctor ever do that?

The mindbending battle in The Brain of Morbius? The intention of the producers at the time was that, despite contradicting The Three Doctors, the other faces were previous incarnations of the Doctor. So one fanon idea is that he won the contest by pretending he had earlier lives. Or maybe they were all Morbius. Being called "mindbending", it could be a lot of things other than there being pre-Hartnell Doctors.

There's a load of ideas out there, which is why anyone citing it as meaning there are pre-Hartnell Doctors

There is no evidence in the show of any pre Hartnell Doctors.

Um, well the intentions of the production team in Morbius were that they were previous Doctors, and that's the most obvious interpretation. I'm just saying that clearly it can't be pre-Hartnell Doctors, and the faces in Morbius can be explained in numerous other ways.

The Three Doctors was fine, it was the Five Doctors which sucked.

Erm, well I easily prefer The Five Doctors to The Three Doctors, but that's nothing to do with it.

 

[Sci]

Yes, well done Russell for once again showing your complete contempt for the fandom that means there was a Doctor Who for you to come and ruin in the first place. Bravo.

A smattering of die-hard fans reading the Virgin novels and Doctor Who Magazine does not a preservationist community make. RTD would have had just as easy a time reviving Doctor Who in 2005 if that incredibly small fandom had disbanded long beforehand; the fact that a few people were still reading a magazine would not have indicated to the BBC that there was a sufficiently large market to warrant bringing DW back.

RTD and the BBC brought DW back because they felt that the old show could be sufficiently re-worked to attract a general audience, not because a few geeks like us were still reading their Sylvester McCoy books.

Bottom line: The fans are not the reason DW came back to TV. They are, at best, the reason that there were DW media tie-in products being released when no actual DW was being produced.

 

[DWF]

No retconning on my part. I have always viewed those other faces as anything but those of Morbius and have trouble how anybody could consider them the Doctor since it had already been established that Hartnell was the first.

Well, without be rude enough to ask your age, I suspect it does depend on how old you were in 1976. I was just short of nine when Morbius went out, and assumed they were pre-Hartnell Doctors, then later in the year Deadly Assassin came along.. and then Morbius was repeated just so even the youngest kid could spot the clash (Morbius and Pyramids were both repeated over Christmas 76 in between Assassin and Face of Evil).

I don't think age has much to do about how the scene was viewed, like many others I thought those were past faces of Morbius not the Doctor. Of course in Mawdryn Undead the Doctor said he had more lives left, so I guess you either go by behind the scenes talk or what's onscreen.

 

[Davros]

No retconning on my part. I have always viewed those other faces as anything but those of Morbius and have trouble how anybody could consider them the Doctor since it had already been established that Hartnell was the first.

Well, without be rude enough to ask your age, I suspect it does depend on how old you were in 1976. I was just short of nine when Morbius went out, and assumed they were pre-Hartnell Doctors, then later in the year Deadly Assassin came along.. and then Morbius was repeated just so even the youngest kid could spot the clash (Morbius and Pyramids were both repeated over Christmas 76 in between Assassin and Face of Evil).

I don't think age has much to do about how the scene was viewed, like many others I thought those were past faces of Morbius not the Doctor. Of course in Mawdryn Undead the Doctor said he had more lives left, so I guess you either go by behind the scenes talk or what's onscreen.

I'm going with what's onscreen.

 

[Cutter John]

Seems simple enough. The 12 regens were an artificial limit set by the Timelords that simply went away once they were gone. It would explain how they were able to offer the Master a whole new set of lives back in Five Doctors. The Doc isn't quite sure himself, so he threw out a number.

As for the Morbius thing, at this point we can safely say those were his lives rather than the Doctor. I'm guessign it was an early attempt to add a bit more mystery to the Doctors backstory. Since then we have more than enough evidence that Hartnell was the first (The original you might say).

 

[lightpaths]

The Regeneration Limit and How this has Changed​

Law-- rather than physical possibility-- regulated the number of times a Time Lord could regenerate. After 12 regenerations, the Rassilonic force took the Time Lord's essence and bio data into a matrix. (Deadly Assassin, Shada)

Time Lords were able to extend the allotted number of regenerations when the need existed. For example, in The Five Doctors, the master is told that if he helps the High Council he will be given a "new regeneration cycle" which implies he will be allowed or given 12 more regeneration before being sucked into the Matrix. In the New Series, the Master claims he was given new regenerations but in the end chooses not to use them. (The Sound of Drums)

Another demonstration that the matrix’s power was regulated rather than forced is that, at the end of the Master's regeneration cycles, he transfers his essence into a new body and lives. If the 12 regenerations were a physical limit, his essence would have been dead or powerless to act and survive the change. (The Keeper of Traken)

Therefore, if Gallefrey, Rassilon, and the power behind the matrix has ceased to exist, the Doctor’s essence will not be taken from him after 12 regenerations. His essence will not be changed and he will still retain the ability to regenerate, possibly as many times as he likes.

 

[Bones2]

^
No. The Doctor is not immortal because the Time Lords are gone. In fact we see from them giving the Master a new cycle that only Time Lords can grant new cycles. They're not around to hand new lives out.

Does no one else agree that the Doctor being immortal would undermine the show? I've no problem with him getting more (though certainly not unlimited) regenerations, provided it's the result of a good and satisfying story. As I've said, I've got an idea that works, and it's not as if I'm a professional writer. Perhaps the new Who lot should get some competent people in to deal with these things, or else we'll end up with Gatiss, Roberts, or Chibnall having him find that magic fucking crystal that RTD thinks is what passes for a good idea.

 

[Sci]

Does no one else agree that the Doctor being immortal would undermine the show?

Depends on how you define "immortal." It would certainly undermine the show if there was no longer a possibility of the Doctor being fatally injured before he could regenerate in the course of an adventure.

But I don't think that it undermines the show if the Doctor were to be otherwise immortal. Really, the show has already made him de facto immortal simply by virtue of the fact that they don't really address the idea of a regeneration limit and by virtue of having already made him so much older than all of his human companions. If they were to slip in a "the destruction of the Time Lords lifted the artificial limit on regenerations, rendering the Doctor immortal barring injury" infodump, it wouldn't realistically change any of the show's thematic content. It's already fundamentally a show preoccupied with the idea of how an immortal man copes with living in a universe of comparative mayflies.

 

[EnderAKH]

^
Does no one else agree that the Doctor being immortal would undermine the show?

I for one do not agree, for the simple reason that the show existed for 13 years before the limit was even imposed. To say that an immortal Doctor lessens the character, mythos, or stories told is to say that those 13 years worth of stories, which would include everything from the first, second and third Doctors not to mention the Sarah Jane years of the fourth, are somehow cheapened. I think if the viewers of Doctor Who from 1963 to 1976 could deal with a nearly immortal Doctor somehow, through the Grace of God, we will get by as well.

 

[Saga]

The Doctor could be immortal but not invulnerable. he could have 500 or 1000 regenerations but if both his hearts stop or are destroyed he dies.

 

[Sketcher]

I strongly believe the Doctor is lying to Clyde. The 11th Doctor has repeatedly avoided uncomfortable answers to uncomfortable questions such as if he has children (The Beast Below) or if he truly believes all the nasty things the Dream Lord said about him (Amy's Choice). Saying he has 507, an obviously exaggerated number, rather than revealing he has only a mere two regenerations remaining is in line with 11's evasiveness.

 

[Bones2]

Does no one else agree that the Doctor being immortal would undermine the show?

Depends on how you define "immortal." It would certainly undermine the show if there was no longer a possibility of the Doctor being fatally injured before he could regenerate in the course of an adventure.

But I don't think that it undermines the show if the Doctor were to be otherwise immortal. Really, the show has already made him de facto immortal simply by virtue of the fact that they don't really address the idea of a regeneration limit and by virtue of having already made him so much older than all of his human companions. If they were to slip in a "the destruction of the Time Lords lifted the artificial limit on regenerations, rendering the Doctor immortal barring injury" infodump, it wouldn't realistically change any of the show's thematic content. It's already fundamentally a show preoccupied with the idea of how an immortal man copes with living in a universe of comparative mayflies.

How can there be an artificial limit imposed by the Time Lords in that way? Did they have a secret mic in every Tardis in case some sneaky bugger tried to regenerate for the 13th time so they could show up and say "sorry sunshine, time's up". In fact, being as the Doctor was one of the few Time Lords to leave Gallifrey, it's even less likely he'd be able to get more regenerations. No, surely they give you your thirteen regenerations to start out with and then whatever happens to you happens. In fact, that line's just the kind of outright nonsense RTD would write. It cheapens regeneration, it cheapens the character, and it cheapens the mythos of the show. I don't agree with the idea that he's now so old that it doesn't make a difference to how we'd perceive him. He's that old because he's been on our screens for a long time. He may have been old, but he was nowhere near that old when Hartnell regenerated.

Many of the opponents the Doctor has encountered over the years haven't just been evil people, but characters like Lumic, the Master, and Borusa who wanted to live forever and would do whatever it takes. It would make the Doctor into a hypocrite if he could just carry on going in such a way. Again, I'm not opposed to the Doctor getting more regenerations by means of a good and well told story (as I said, I've an idea in the unlikely event I'm ever in the position to put it to the producers of the show), but unlimited regenerations undermines it for me. We've known about this limit for a long time now, and it's been a central part of the show. Each time the Doctor has regenerated since Tom, he's changed and we know he's been moving on to a new part of (and, by extension, getting nearer to the end of) his life. Extend it in a clever way if you can find it, but I think making him immortal would be wrong all round.

I strongly believe the Doctor is lying to Clyde. The 11th Doctor has repeatedly avoided uncomfortable answers to uncomfortable questions such as if he has children (The Beast Below) or if he truly believes all the nasty things the Dream Lord said about him (Amy's Choice). Saying he has 507, an obviously exaggerated number, rather than revealing he has only a mere two regenerations remaining is in line with 11's evasiveness.

Yeah, well put. Also note how he didn't correct Jo Grant's mention of how the Time Lords might be onto him (or whatever it was). His advancing years and closeness to the end of his life are probably a sore point for the silly old buffer (as well as the loss of his people). He's been lying about his age and saying he's 900, after all.

 

[Samurai8472]

It was all a joke people!

No one actually takes the regeneration limit seriously

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2010/10/26/int...-talks-about-that-sarah-jane-adventures-line/

507 – I could not resist! I was hooting. It’ll never stick, though. That 13 lives is stuck in people’s heads. It is, isn’t it funny? Yet they only said 13 once or twice.

 

[RoJoHen]

"They only said 13 once or twice."

How many times do they need to say it before it becomes real?

 

[Phily B]

I got the impression he was just throwing Moffat something to use or not use. I prefer the unlimited regenerations due to no time lords.

 

[Bones2]

I got the impression he was just throwing Moffat something to use or not use. I prefer the unlimited regenerations due to no time lords.

Even though it makes no sense, and over the possibilities of a cohesive and interesting story on the matter? There then is the legacy of RTD. Perhaps they may even milk a cry out of us over it.

 

[VDCNI]

The Doctor was lying because RTD is a rubbish writer. If you make the Doctor immortal, then you ruin him.

Um - I'm not sure if you've noticed this before but Doctor Who is a TV show and The Doctor is the main character.

Therefore as long as it gets the ratings it will keep being produced which, guess what, means the character is immortal no matter what the regeneration limit is.

How do you cope with pre Deadly Assassin Who if the 13 life limit is so essential to the character.