so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

So your way of rationalizing not having holo-technology regularly in the future is to turn Sander's into Sisko's adversary as not being an invited person on his ship?

No. My point is that many people, in the 24th century or any other, even given the capability and option to use this kind of communication, might nevertheless choose not to, because they might find it distracting or unpleasant, as it's implied that Sanders does there. It's the same reasoning I would suggest to explain why people on TNG weren't using their hands to manipulate and fling around the images on the holo-consoles there, but were instead using the tactile interface. They might simply find it more comfortable and prefer to do it that way. It doesn't have to mean the device itself is inferior in its capabilities to what we see in DSC.

I personally don't enjoy the experience of 3D movies and prefer to stick to 2D even where there is a choice. The 3D aspect usually doesn't add much for me. I find it difficult to focus on the story and I usually end up with a headache. (Not to mention the expense!) Also, not all theaters are equipped for 3D, and not all movies are released that way, though it's more common now than ever before—after falling in and out of popular favor more than once over time. Similarly, as @fireproof78 said before, I don't like talk to people via video or speakerphone. I prefer to just hold the phone up to my ear. Always, with only the rarest of exceptions. This doesn't mean the phone can't do those other things though. I just don't use those features, out of my own preference.

It's entirely possible that Kirk and others felt the same way about holo-communicators. It could have even become a common sentiment at various times, even if it isn't in DSC's.

I would say Discovery improved on the design of the new holo-communicator installed in episode "for the uniform". The Sarek hologram was able to walk around the room and sit down whereas the holographic image show in episode "for the uniform" was restricted to a small area that was visibly lit up on the bottom.

First of all, I don't believe we are meant to think the holograms on DSC are solid based on Sarek "sitting down." I think it's fairly clear he actually sat down in the room where he physically was, and the computer "cheated" this effect by abruptly shifting the projection to another part of the room that roughly corresponded to the object he was leaning against so that it wouldn't look like he was hanging in mid-air taking a dump. You may notice that his image jumps from one spot to another to make this happen. In other scenes, we see Anderson's holo-projection pass right through objects.

The projection in "For The Uniform" looks to be solid, as most 24th century holograms are, which the contained area might have something to do with. Even if it isn't necessary to maintain the forcefields involved, you wouldn't want a holo-Eddington able to run amok around your bridge sabotaging stuff, now would you! On the other hand, the one in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" looks like it might be more akin to the DSC ones, projected from above, and with no containment ring. And possibly even not solid, so maybe not new at all, but actually quite old.

-MMoM

 

[marsh8472]

TNG "Contagion" talking about magic in the 24th century

WESLEY: It's about the Iconians, sir. I was told they were just a myth.
PICARD: China was thought to be only a myth until Marco Polo travelled there. No, the Iconians were certainly real. Sit down. We know that three systems within this sector had a number of cultural similarities. Similarities which could only be explained by there being a single unifying influence.
WESLEY: So they colonised those worlds?
PICARD: Probably conquered.
WESLEY: You mean they were warlike?
PICARD: Perhaps. Ancient texts did speak of 'Demons of Air and Darkness'.
WESLEY: Air and darkness?
PICARD: Legend has it that they travelled without the benefit of spaceships, merely appearing out of thin air on distant planets.
WESLEY: Sounds like magic.
PICARD: Well, we would appear magical to Stone Age people.

They called magic being able to go to distant planets in a blink of an eye.

S01E03
Lorca: All those planets, all those. Blink, you missed Romulus. Blink, the moons of Andoria. Blink, you're in Ilari. Or where they could take us? Hold tight. places, all those species, seen and yet to be seen.

Hey look at that, they can go to other planets without even having to waste calories by walking through a gateway.


and the dominion wanting this power so they can become invincible.

WEYOUN: I would say it's very possible they're going to use that equipment to help them complete the Gateway. You understand the nature of our dilemma?
SISKO: If the Jem'Hadar are able to make the Gateway operational, they'll become virtually invincible.
WEYOUN: Our experts predict the renegades would gather support from other Jem'Hadar units, launch a general insurrection, and effect a complete takeover of the Dominion in less than a year.
SISKO: None of which is my problem.
WEYOUN: That's very shortsighted of you, Captain. Think about it. If the Jem'Hadar seize control of the Dominion, there'll be no stopping them. Even shutting down the wormhole won't protect the Alpha Quadrant. With the Gateway, they could put a million Jem'Hadar warriors on any Federation planet instantaneously. Would you care to see our projections of Federation casualties?

So basically according to Weyoun, Sisko, and other experts in the dominion, 23rd century starfleet is more powerful than 24th century Federation and Dominion combined.

 

[F. King Daniel]

This has been answered for you a hundred times already, man. No different than we felt about TMP. In your mind, each of your complaints must be explicitly addressed in the show, and you're projecting that requirement onto everyone else - but to us, the complaints were never valid in the first place. This was never "incompatible" to begin with.

TMP wasn't compatible. We just all pretended it did.

The Klingon arc will tie into TOS of course, but that may or may not include a 50 year old battlecruiser model or a makeup change, because it doesn't need to. I have some of my own ideas as to how it will, which I think I mentioned in your "Random speculations" thread, but the difference is I know it's nothing but random speculation, while you're under the illusion that you know what the creators have in mind (in spite of explicit contradiction) and that everyone else is too blind to see it.

You see, to us, and the average viewer, it doesn't matter if Augments appear or not, or if we see detachable/retractable Klingon ship necks or not, or whatever. These are possibilities, but the story could take us anywhere. Yours is by far the more narrow view. You have a fragile theory that would be shattered with a single instance of supposedly "incompatible" ideas being connected by any means. Like any conspiracy theory, yours becomes more complicated with each new fact that you need to deny. The question of how you would react to these revelations is appropriate, and your avoiding the question with another question is telling.

It doesn't matter to me either, as I've said a million times. Most of this debate is because of your blind insistence that everything fits perfectly and your attacks on me and others for pointing out that it very obviously doesn't. If you want to pretend it does, fine. I won't.

Or how about what we've already seen? We have Lorca using 2D screens for communication, a haired Klingon sarcophagus, and a DSC comic with haired Klingons. Even though these are incompatible.

There's a DSC comic where Klingons have hair?

That's merely restating the exact same fallacy twice. They're just fighting somewhere else, either in other battles besides the ones we see, or simply off-camera. It's not like we see the entirety of either war, raging across quadrants. We only see a little slice of each. There were explicitly at least ten separate allied fleets comprised of Gene-only-knows how many battle groups that fought in the Dominion War! Space is frickin' huge, man! The episodes don't show everything, just the particular events that concern Our Heroes™ in those specific moments.


It would be fairly in line with the movie-era Bird of Prey shifting configuration when it goes into attack mode. Why did they stop showing that feature for decades? Real life answer: because it was too much trouble and and put too much strain on the model. In-universe answer: whatever you want it to be! Once again, just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Now, do I seriously expect to see this to happen? Hell no. But if the difference bothers you so much that you can't suspend your disbelief, why not try imagining harder instead of throwing up your hands and saying "oh well, I guess this can't be the same continuity!" I mean, you can, no one can stop you, but that isn't going to change the fact that from the perspective of the storytellers (and most of the audience, I'd wager) it nonetheless is.

Imagining harder seems awfully pointless when the designers of the original never imagined it transforming into a completely different shape and neither did the designers of the new one imagine it transforming into the old. Why should we try harder than the people making the show?

As @zar said, the same way as about the TMP change before DS9 decided to acknowledge it, yet still leave it unexplained until ENT then decided to go ahead and outright explain it. Either we're just supposed to ignore it and imagine they always looked like that, or there's some in-universe reason for it that as yet can only be theorized/guessed at, because they haven't come up with one they feel is worth telling a whole story about. Neither of which would lead me to proclaim these shows to be in different continuities despite all "official" protestations otherwise.


The idea of multiple races of Klingons was somehow more plausible before we'd actually seen multiple races of Klingons? And it's less plausible now that we have? Right then.

It's that we never see them together, and the art department are pretty open about re-imagining them. Again, you're trying to explain something in-universe that they're deliberately changing IRL. You see a point to it, but I don't. They're not trying to make it consistent, so I'm not pretending it is.

Here we go with the same tired fallacy yet again! Did we see every Klingon on every ship in every episode they appeared in? Why could there not simply be others of different varieties there that we just didn't see? Maybe the different types disdain one another and segregate themselves? Or like I said before, maybe one rises to dominance for a time, subjugating and succeeding another, undertaking to enslave or drive out (or even wipe out) and effectively replace them, only for the other to later make a resurgence and return to do the reverse? Yeah, you're right, stuff like that could never conceivably happen without...magic! It's too implausible!

You're just making excuses for them failing to actually show Klingon diversity.

Sure, absolutely it could be just that and nothing more. But if that's the case, then no explanation should be needed at all. It seems like either way you just refuse to accept that it's all meant to be the same continuity. I, on the other hand, am happy to accept it either way. We're both entirely free to make that individual choice for ourselves, of course. But ultimately, it's neither your personal rejection nor my personal acceptance that determines whether it actually is or isn't. It ain't up to us.

Of course CBS will keep saying it's the same continuity, I've never said they won't. I do wonder though, if we ever get another Star Trek Encyclopedia or similar work that encompasses more than just DSC, how they'll approach these issues.

 

[Tuskin38]

TMP wasn't compatible. We just all pretended it did.

Then do the same with DSC

In the end we will find out that DSC takes place in a parallel universe.

We won't because they said it isn't.

 

[zar]

Braga's complaints are not persuasive enough to declare it not part of star trek canon.

Instantaneous travel is a Threshold plot though. The examples you're mentioning are about faster rates of travel not instantaneous. If Discovery were a ship from the 25th century or later it would make more sense since we see Admiral Janeway go to the Delta quadrant instantly as well as timeships Aeon and Relativity can also travel across the galaxy instantly.

Since we visibly see travel through transwarp conduits and such, and the spore drive is explicitly described as crossing a certain distance in a certain span of time, these are obviously not instantaneous. In fact, the Bajoran and Barzan wormholes, and "Where No One Has Gone Before", are all definitely faster than the spore drive. The Iconian gateways are perhaps instantaneous. The plot element of instantaneous travel is not inherently bad. The creative process of "Threshold" could have started in the same place and ended up somewhere much better than it did.

DSC's plot is much more "Equinox", anyway.

 

[fireproof78]

Braga's complaints are not persuasive enough to declare it not part of star trek canon.

Then perhaps don't cite fan criticism of it being the worst VOY episode or wanting it to be non-canon. Those concerns seems a lot more valid when the writer wants it non-canon as well.

Instantaneous travel is a Threshold plot though. The examples you're mentioning are about faster rates of travel not instantaneous. If Discovery were a ship from the 25th century or later it would make more sense since we see Admiral Janeway go to the Delta quadrant instantly as well as timeships Aeon and Relativity can also travel across the galaxy instantly.

So, that automatically means that DISCO can't do it?

Got it. Again, DISCO does it so its bad.

They usually visit Earth at least once in every series. They will again if the pattern continues.

https://www.inverse.com/article/37357-star-trek-discovery-canon-changes-tos-tng says this:


They don't think they'll fix canon either as far as appearances are concerned

They never visited Earth in TOS. GR specifically avoided that during the production, because he wanted to not focus predicting it too much. So, DISCO would be consistent with TOS if Earth isn't visited. Thus far, with the story, I see no reason to do so.

Secondly, that part you quoted, was speculation on the part of the author, not Kurtzman himself. So, just another fan opinion

And, to quote that author "A lot can happen in ten years."

 

[marsh8472]

Since we visibly see travel through transwarp conduits and such, and the spore drive is explicitly described as crossing a certain distance in a certain span of time, these are obviously not instantaneous. In fact, the Bajoran and Barzan wormholes, and "Where No One Has Gone Before", are all definitely faster than the spore drive. The Iconian gateways are perhaps instantaneous. The plot element of instantaneous travel is not inherently bad. The creative process of "Threshold" could have started in the same place and ended up somewhere much better than it did.

DSC's plot is much more "Equinox", anyway.

They said they traveled 90 light years in 1.3 seconds. But it is unclear whether the 1.3 seconds is actually the time it takes to power up the spore drive, do the spin, and vanish. If Gene Roddenberry cannot convince you that the cartoon series is not canon, why would you allow Braga to convince you that "Threshold" is not canon?

Then perhaps don't cite fan criticism of it being the worst VOY episode or wanting it to be non-canon. Those concerns seems a lot more valid when the writer wants it non-canon as well.

I find it ironic that Threshold is criticized by the same people who praise Discovery.

So, that automatically means that DISCO can't do it?

Got it. Again, DISCO does it so its bad.

Discovery did it badly. Good idea, wrong century. At least the exotic technology in VOY "Threshold" was for one episode only. Flaunting this revolutionary technology in Star Trek Discovery is worthy of ridicule.

They never visited Earth in TOS. GR specifically avoided that during the production, because he wanted to not focus predicting it too much. So, DISCO would be consistent with TOS if Earth isn't visited. Thus far, with the story, I see no reason to do so.

Secondly, that part you quoted, was speculation on the part of the author, not Kurtzman himself. So, just another fan opinion

And, to quote that author "A lot can happen in ten years."

They visited past Earth a few times in TOS but not present day Earth. Every series has a time travel episode back to Earth. They did visit present-day Earth in the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. If Discovery lasts longer than 2 seasons I expect these patterns will continue.

 

[zar]

It doesn't matter to me either, as I've said a million times. Most of this debate is because of your blind insistence that everything fits perfectly and your attacks on me and others for pointing out that it very obviously doesn't. If you want to pretend it does, fine. I won't.

Alright man, keep telling yourself that. Your and Marsh's agendas here are well documented and transparent. You repeat the same tired crap in every thread. This thread used to be about color schemes and bridge layouts until you two started trolling back on page 16.

The vast majority of viewers know they're watching a straight prequel and don't give a second thought to your conspiracy nonsense. They aren't calling anyone liars. They aren't crying "incompatible!" every time a new concept is introduced. If you want to pretend this is "obvious" and the rest of the world lacks common sense, fine. I won't.

There's a DSC comic where Klingons have hair?

Yeah, it's been discussed in the Photoshop thread. As I pointed out he looks similar to a TSFS Klingon. Once again you've dodged the question. How will you reconcile "incompatible" concepts coexisting with your assertion that the incompatibilities and discontinuities are deliberate and cannot be reconciled?

Why should we try harder than the people making the show?

Why do you try so hard to deny the statements of the people making the show?

We speculate for fun. You actively deny.

 

[marsh8472]

Alright man, keep telling yourself that. Your and Marsh's agendas here are well documented and transparent. You repeat the same tired crap in every thread. This thread used to be about color schemes and bridge layouts until you two started trolling back on page 16.

The vast majority of viewers know they're watching a straight prequel and don't give a second thought to your conspiracy nonsense. They aren't calling anyone liars. They aren't crying "incompatible!" every time a new concept is introduced. If you want to pretend this is "obvious" and the rest of the world lacks common sense, fine. I won't.

But isn't your agenda to follow me in every thread I post in and then try to rally public support against me? Apparently you're not able to handle your own in these discussions, you're always trying to appeal for public support. Just respond to the comments, no need to bring the public up to speed on my posting history in every thread. I do find the denial of the inconsistencies here odd. Why deny it? I've encountered this kind of ignorance only when I argued with Star Wars fans that their ships do not possess gigaton weaponry. It's disappointing to see Star Trek fans with the same level of denial.

Yeah, it's been discussed in the Photoshop thread. As I pointed out he looks similar to a TSFS Klingon. Once again you've dodged the question. How will you reconcile "incompatible" concepts coexisting with your assertion that the incompatibilities and discontinuities are deliberate and cannot be reconciled?

Are these comics canon? As far as I know they are not. Why are you talking about a comic book?

Why do you try so hard to deny the statements of the people making the show?

We speculate for fun. You actively deny.

If people turned their own level of skepticism and burden of proof of the claim that 23rd century doesn't appear the way it is portrayed in Star Trek Discovery onto their own positions, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

 

[fireproof78]

They said they traveled 90 light years in 1.3 seconds. But it is unclear whether the 1.3 seconds is actually the time it takes to power up the spore drive, do the spin, and vanish. If Gene Roddenberry cannot convince you that the cartoon series is not canon, why would you allow Braga to convince you that "Threshold" is not canon?

You cited fans. I cited Braga. And, honestly, the idea that the future of human evolution is to lose what most have considered to be evolutionary advantages is best forgotten.

TAS was discarded because...

I find it ironic that Threshold is criticized by the same people who praise Discovery.

I find it ironic that people who praise TMP and accept it as canon denounce DISCO.

Discovery did it badly. Good idea, wrong century. At least the exotic technology in VOY "Threshold" was for one episode only. Flaunting this revolutionary technology in Star Trek Discovery is worthy of ridicule.

I'll make this one simple-no.

They visited past Earth a few times in TOS but not present day Earth. Every series has a time travel episode back to Earth. They did visit present-day Earth in the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. If Discovery lasts longer than 2 seasons I expect these patterns will continue.

Are those the goal posts being moved? Why yes, yes they are.

Then do the same with DSC

This. Always and forever this. TMP got away with it. DISCO can get away with it.

 

[marsh8472]

You cited fans. I cited Braga. And, honestly, the idea that the future of human evolution is to lose what most have considered to be evolutionary advantages is best forgotten.

TAS was discarded because...

Evolution does not mean always improving. Evolution is driven by natural selection. If the environment does not promote a certain trait for survival random mutations should get rid of that trait over time. Episode "Threshold" is not meant to project what humans will evolve into in the future. That's dependent on the environment and time. De-evolution is not a known process though which makes TNG "Genesis" more invalid.

I find it ironic that people who praise TMP and accept it as canon denounce DISCO.

I'm not one that praises TMP. I've publicly ranked it as the worst star trek movie of all time in previous posts.

Are those the goal posts being moved? Why yes, yes they are.

You imagining that they are. I knew that they never showed present day Earth in TOS before making the post. Pay closer attention next time, I specifically said "They usually visit Earth at least once in every series.". Why are you so afraid of Star Trek Discovery showing what present day Earth looks like?

This. Always and forever this. TMP got away with it. DISCO can get away with it.

TMP is different because we see improvements as time moves forward, not the other way around.

 

[zar]

But isn't your agenda to follow me in every thread I post in and then try to rally public support against me?

Apparently, another thing you both have in common is a persecution complex.

Are these comics canon? As far as I know they are not. Why are you talking about a comic book?

First of all, I already gave two other examples from canon.

According to Daniel, such a thing is complicated / convoluted / incompatible. The question is how he responds to this. That question isn't really dependent on whether it's canon, since he should criticize it as ridiculous and ignorant of the "obvious" inherent problems just the same. Or he can continue being selectively biased and avoid the question as he has been.

That said, the fact that the comic is also written by Kirsten Beyer does throw quite a wrench into his "this is incompatible by design" narrative.

 

[fireproof78]

Evolution does not mean always improving. Evolution is driven by natural selection. If the environment does not promote a certain trait for survival random mutations should get rid of that trait over time. Episode "Threshold" is not meant to project what humans will evolve into in the future. That's dependent on the environment and time. De-evolution is not a known process though which makes TNG "Genesis" more invalid.

Which isn't what is shown in Threshold. Tom Paris actively rejects his environment and dies because of it.

I'm not one that praises TMP. I've publicly ranked it as the worst star trek movie of all time in previous posts.

TWOK sufferes the same problems.

You imagining that they are. I knew that they never showed present day Earth in TOS before making the post. Pay closer attention next time, I specifically said "They usually visit Earth at least once in every series.". Why are you so afraid of Star Trek Discovery showing what present day Earth looks like?

Why do you think I'm afraid? I'm certainly not afraid of a TV show lol

It was implied by the context of your comment that if they went to Earth, it would not fit TOS aesthetics.

TMP is different because we see improvements as time moves forward, not the other way around.

Not always. And propulsion technology definitely falls under that category as does personal defense. I mean, one of the big technological marvels of Admiral Janeway's shuttles is her armor plating? Something used by NX-01 but never again?

Or shielding that allows a starship to go in to a sun? Wouldn't that be useful. How about going Warp 10 with a species who thinks thought is the basis of reality? Never hear about that again.

Weird...

 

[Ronald Held]

Lorca likes the current uniforms and has no interest in changing them?
Holocoms are bandwidth hogs and found to be not secure enough?

 

[zar]

Or shielding that allows a starship to go in to a sun?

Oh, I remember that episode. It also had a female Klingon who defied Klingon stereotypes, a Ferengi family with different burial rituals than the Ferengi norm, and a female Starfleet officer who almost lost her career over violating them but ended up being reinstated.

 

[starsuperion]

I still love the idea of TAS Canon being TOS Canon. Walking talking solid holograms in TOS. Yea..but Holographic communication, that's the distinction here, and yes it's a big deal. Big difference. Not even in ENT did we see that kind of example. Why have a view screen chat, when you can do it in holographic format!

 

[zar]

Why have a view screen chat, when you can do it in holographic format!

You tell me.

http://www.3dtelepresence.com/

While you're at it, why on earth are you writing text messages?

 

[fireproof78]

^^
Ninja'd

 

[marsh8472]

Not always. And propulsion technology definitely falls under that category as does personal defense. I mean, one of the big technological marvels of Admiral Janeway's shuttles is her armor plating? Something used by NX-01 but never again?

They installed Ablative armor on the Defiant. USS Prometheus. Experimental prototype designed for deep space tactical assignments. Primary battle systems include regenerative shielding, ablative hull armour, multivector assault mode.

Or shielding that allows a starship to go in to a sun? Wouldn't that be useful.

Not quite, they could enter the sun's corona, not into the star itself. The IKS Rotarren gets pretty close to a star during DS9 episode "Shadows and Symbols", so does Kurn's ship in TNG "Redemption part 2". The enterprise uses the metaphasic shield again during TNG episode "Descent part 2". Otherwise they don't sit next to a star too often. What better place to have a rare technological feat than on Star Trek Discovery right next to a star demonstrating abilities over a century ahead of its time

How about going Warp 10 with a species who thinks thought is the basis of reality? Never hear about that again.

Weird...

That's because it was an advanced race that got them to high velocities. We don't hear much about the travelers abilities again because we don't see or hear about the traveler much again. As the traveler said:
TRAVELLER: It pains me I was so careless, Captain. My intent was only to observe, not to cause this. You should not be here until your far, far distant future. Certainly not until you have learned control.

Here's what I said about Star Trek Discovery about a year ago before I knew anything about it except that it was going to be a prequel. https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/star-trek-discovery-delay.285915/#post-11891248

The good thing about it being a prequel is that I won't be anxious waiting to see it. I grow weary of them going where they've technically already gone before.

My expectation was they were going to use antiquated technology compared to what we see in the 24th century which I was not looking forward to but that was the fact of it. The idea of superior technology on a regular basis to what we see in the 24th century did not compute.

 

[fireproof78]

My expectation was they were going to use antiquated technology compared to what we see in the 24th century which I was not looking forward to but that was the fact of it. The idea of superior technology on a regular basis to what we see in the 24th century did not compute.

Computes fine for me.

They installed Ablative armor on the Defiant. USS Prometheus. Experimental prototype designed for deep space tactical assignments. Primary battle systems include regenerative shielding, ablative hull armour, multivector assault mode.

Not sure what the other systems has to do with this discussion, but I stand corrected on the armor.

Not quite, they could enter the sun's corona, not into the star itself. The IKS Rotarren gets pretty close to a star during DS9 episode "Shadows and Symbols", so does Kurn's ship in TNG "Redemption part 2". The enterprise uses the metaphasic shield again during TNG episode "Descent part 2". Otherwise they don't sit next to a star too often. What better place to have a rare technological feat than on Star Trek Discovery right next to a star demonstrating abilities over a century ahead of its time

Sure, why not? It's not like it was a new maneuver, since Kirk slingshots around the sun.

That's because it was an advanced race that got them to high velocities. We don't hear much about the travelers abilities again because we don't see or hear about the traveler much again. As the traveler said:
TRAVELLER: It pains me I was so careless, Captain. My intent was only to observe, not to cause this. You should not be here until your far, far distant future. Certainly not until you have learned control.

Which doesn't track with how Warp 10 is approached later by VOY. So, again, revisiting propulsion technologies with different interpretations.