so the producers and writers said that discovery will lead into TOS (60's aesthetics and all)...

[Jedman67]

Those two things are not mutually exclusive or contradictory. The Powers That Be have already said it's the same continuity and timeline, and that there are in-story reasons for at least some of the perceived differences that will be revealed as the show goes along. They haven't said if all of them will have in-story reasons, nor specified which will and which won't. And what exactly is so "convoluted and ridiculous'' about what I've suggested as just one potential explanation for the Klingons? (Or was that not directed at me?) Things not all that far off from that scenario have actually happened here on this planet over the course of human history!

I was directing my comments more at the people who believe that DSC will magically turn into TOS (visually, et al). Just like Wyoming is in the United States, much like New York City and California, it has little do with either state. Discovery is its own take on Star Trek, and much like the Abrams films, essentially forges its own path in the continuity. Stuff like the holographic comm or transparent screens or the bridge on the bottom of the saucer represent intentional design and aesthetic changes from what comes before. Saying that -Kirk "must have" always had a holographic comm (and other tech) but we "just never saw it" since Discovery has it- is an example of convoluted and twisted thinking. He didn't have it. Voyager had some form of it - since DS9 had it - but never needed to use it aside from a handful of utterly forgettable episodes.
Coming up with an in-story, in universe explanation makes for boredom and tying the writers hand. Call it a bleeding retcon and move on....

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^Gotcha. Sorry if I misconstrued your point and got a little snippety.

 

[Jedman67]

^Gotcha. Sorry if I misconstrued your point and got a little snippety.

I can handle snippety. Sarcasm is my second language

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Saying that -Kirk "must have" always had a holographic comm (and other tech) but we "just never saw it" since Discovery has it- is an example of convoluted and twisted thinking. He didn't have it. Voyager had some form of it - since DS9 had it - but never needed to use it aside from a handful of utterly forgettable episodes.

Well, it's not really implausible because Kirk did have a holographic recreation room (though not a full-on Holodeck) and Tuvok said there was holographic imaging in the 23rd century.

Voyager might well have forgone gratuitous holography—i.e., that beyond what was deemed affordable (though explicitly rationed) for the morale of the crew in the form of the Holodeck, and necessary in the absence of a physical Doctor in the case of the EMH—due to the ostensible need to conserve power in the midst of her ongoing predicament.

Not all that convoluted.

-MMoM

 

[starsuperion]

I was directing my comments more at the people who believe that DSC will magically turn into TOS (visually, et al). Just like Wyoming is in the United States, much like New York City and California, it has little do with either state. Discovery is its own take on Star Trek, and much like the Abrams films, essentially forges its own path in the continuity. Stuff like the holographic comm or transparent screens or the bridge on the bottom of the saucer represent intentional design and aesthetic changes from what comes before. Saying that -Kirk "must have" always had a holographic comm (and other tech) but we "just never saw it" since Discovery has it- is an example of convoluted and twisted thinking. He didn't have it. Voyager had some form of it - since DS9 had it - but never needed to use it aside from a handful of utterly forgettable episodes.
Coming up with an in-story, in universe explanation makes for boredom and tying the writers hand. Call it a bleeding retcon and move on....

It's a reboot. Retcon is being too generous. The TOS uniforms are clearly fleet wide. There were many episodes where Kirk met others on outposts with the same outfit. Never did we see the space jumpsuit until it was starbase technicians of some sort, or private cargo ships uniforms. Transitioning to the TOS aesthetic would probably end up looking like a rehash of the Jar Jar ahem, JJ Abrams aesthetic.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

There were many episodes where Kirk met others on outposts with the same outfit.

Pretty much only insofar as his own designated patrol areas and his immediate authorities that oversaw them are concerned. And besides, that's all years away.

-MMoM

 

[starsuperion]

Well, it's not really implausible because Kirk did have a holographic recreation room (though not a full-on Holodeck) and Tuvok said there was holographic imaging in the 23rd century.

Voyager might well have forgone gratuitous holography—i.e., that beyond what was deemed affordable (though explicitly rationed) for the morale of the crew in the form of the Holodeck, and necessary in the absence of a physical Doctor in the case of the EMH—due to the ostensible need to conserve power in the midst of her ongoing predicament.

Not all that convoluted.

-MMoM

If it's left up to fans to rationalize the continuity and storyline for a new Star Trek, then it's high time for those fans to acknowledge that while it's easy to spout how hung up on continuity the previous series were, and marrying their universe to match was a priority, it's also a factor that seems lost in writing and producing a series set between the original and subsequent series. If the writing is so superior, and the current writing staff so genius, it would have been possible for those beacons of smart, to pay closer attention to the original continuity, and build their own stories around that, rather than use it to twist into a new Canon that disrupts the original. In addition, and that said, the inclusion of walking holograms isn't such a problem for me, given I view the TAS as TOS Canon. So for me, recreation room and holographic projection technology were present, but never seen is how I view it. However in the TAS it's known. So my main gripes is having a tie in to TOS as an aesthetic, and the relationships and Retcon of Spock. Yes, that is a retcon. The series, can't it's a reboot.

 

[starsuperion]

Pretty much only insofar as his own designated patrol areas and his immediate authorities that oversaw them are concerned. And besides, that's all years away.


-MMoM

True, but the explanation why has to be functional and not just political, in universe

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

If it's left up to fans to rationalize the continuity and storyline for a new Star Trek, then it's high time for those fans to acknowledge that while it's easy to spout how hung up on continuity the previous series were, and marrying their universe to match was a priority, it's also a factor that seems lost in writing and producing a series set between the original and subsequent series. If the writing is so superior, and the current writing staff so genius, it would have been possible for those beacons of smart, to pay closer attention to the original continuity, and build their own stories around that, rather than use it to twist into a new Canon that disrupts the original. In addition, and that said, the inclusion of walking holograms isn't such a problem for me, given I view the TAS as TOS Canon. So for me, recreation room and holographic projection technology were present, but never seen is how I view it. However in the TAS it's known. So my main gripes is having a tie in to TOS as an aesthetic, and the relationships and Retcon of Spock. Yes, that is a retcon. The series, can't it's a reboot.

Much as with ENT, the writing and design of DSC is more contradicting our preconceived notions of what continuity "should" be than it is any actual continuity.

I think the Burnham-Spock connection is very well done, violating absolutely nothing we knew of his character previously, and actually adding a lot of great context to his and Sarek's relationship as portrayed in "Journey To Babel" (TOS)!

-MMoM

 

[fireproof78]

It's a reboot. Retcon is being too generous. The TOS uniforms are clearly fleet wide. There were many episodes where Kirk met others on outposts with the same outfit. Never did we see the space jumpsuit until it was starbase technicians of some sort, or private cargo ships uniforms. Transitioning to the TOS aesthetic would probably end up looking like a rehash of the Jar Jar ahem, JJ Abrams aesthetic.

Ten years is a long time. Also, one working uniform is the dumbest thing, and is more implausible than most things on Star Trek. Abrams Trek got that right for certain, among other things.

See TMP and TWOK for other examples of uniform changes.

Much as with ENT, the writing and design of DSC is more contradicting our preconceived notions of what continuity "should" be than it is any actual continuity.

I think the Burnham-Spock connection is very well done, violating absolutely nothing we knew of his character previously, and actually adding a lot of great context to his and Sarek's relationship as portrayed in "Journey To Babel" (TOS)!

-MMoM

Exactly. The conflict seems to come from preconceived nothing of how Star Trek ought to be rather than what it is.

 

[zar]

If it's left up to fans to rationalize the continuity and storyline for a new Star Trek, then it's high time for those fans to acknowledge that while it's easy to spout how hung up on continuity the previous series were, and marrying their universe to match was a priority, it's also a factor that seems lost in writing and producing a series set between the original and subsequent series. If the writing is so superior, and the current writing staff so genius, it would have been possible for those beacons of smart, to pay closer attention to the original continuity, and build their own stories around that, rather than use it to twist into a new Canon that disrupts the original. In addition, and that said, the inclusion of walking holograms isn't such a problem for me, given I view the TAS as TOS Canon. So for me, recreation room and holographic projection technology were present, but never seen is how I view it. However in the TAS it's known. So my main gripes is having a tie in to TOS as an aesthetic, and the relationships and Retcon of Spock. Yes, that is a retcon. The series, can't it's a reboot.

It isn't up to fans to rationalize the story. The writers should close out plot details and continuity links. This is expected. The trouble is with some people not being able to distinguish between things that require exposition and things that don't. Some retcons instantly flow naturally and need no more explanation. Some aren't even retcons to begin with, but simply additions (that happen to replace preconceived notions). Holograms fall into the latter category.

 

[Jedman67]

It's a reboot. Retcon is being too generous.

Potatoes, tomatos...

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Nothing Discovery can do will retroactively change the existing shows. It is difficult to see how a show made in 2017 can diminish a dramatic point from an episode in, say 1997, that we have seen already, in some cases many times, and can return to whenever we wish.

I think I get what you mean here, but respectfully, I don't really agree with this part as a general proposition.

Returning to the example of the Burnham-Sarek storyline, that does at least subtly change the way we view the whole Spock-Sarek split over his joining Starfleet as depicted in "Journey To Babel" (TOS) and the distance between them that persists even beyond, though in a manner that is enhancing rather than diminishing IMO. If it had been done carelessly, however, then it could well have been the opposite.

But I take it that your point was more that people are free to just ignore DSC and keep enjoying the other shows as if it didn't exist, if they please. Which is, of course, quite true.

-MMoM

 

[marsh8472]

Pardon me for momentarily allowing my exasperation to slip through a bit here, but coming from someone who's apparently a really big fan of VGR, that's pretty rich! Get back to me when the spore drive on DSC transforms everyone into salamanders!

I like each series about equal with the exception of Star Trek Discovery which I am still evaluating. The evolving into a lizard thing in "Threshold" was alittle out there but not much different than TNG "Genesis" with the entire crew De-evolving, Barclay turning into a spider. Fans criticize VOY "Threshold" a lot, even to the point of calling it not part of canon.

Looking at some of the dialogue of episode "Threshold"
KIM: Nothing in the universe can go warp ten. It's a theoretical impossibility. In principle, if you were ever to reach warp ten, you'd be travelling at infinite velocity.
NEELIX: Infinite velocity. Got it. So that means very fast.
PARIS: It means that you would occupy every point in the universe simultaneously. In theory, you could go any place in the wink of an eye. Time and distance would have no meaning.
...
JANEWAY: It would appear that the theory of infinite velocity is correct. It may be possible to occupy every point in the universe simultaneously.
TORRES: Then it's just a matter of navigation. If we could figure out how to come out of transwarp at a specific point, this could get us home.
JANEWAY: It could do more than that. It could change the very nature of our existence. Think of it. There would be nothing beyond our reach.

Sound familiar?

Discovery S01E04

Lorca: The Discovery is now the only Starfleet ship with a displacement-activated spore hub drive.
Which means, when it's up and running, we will be able to materialize anywhere in the known universe. Behind enemy lines, above the Klingon homeworld. Anywhere.

That's right, the main plot of episode "Threshold" best resembles Star Trek Discovery's main plot. And this is the episode of all episodes you've decided to ridicule?? What were you thinking?

No it isn't.

The Borg are amply evident to be superior in numerous other ways, and even with the holo-projection itself, it's not merely a simple image of the subject; the Queen can manipulate every detail at will, in real time:

QUEEN: I altered the transmission to restore your original appearance. I know how vain humans can be.

And the isomorphic projection is specifically called out as being superior to any mere hologram:

JANEWAY: A hologram.
KURROS: Nothing so crude. An isomorphic projection.

The technologically superior races in those 2 episodes did do other things to show their superiority. But projecting images as a form of communication was one in addition to those ways. Voyager never did it before but the Borg and Think Tank did. From an author's point of view, why else would they choose to use a unique form of communication if not to show the technological superiority of the Think Tank and the Borg? It makes total sense to me that they did it to make the Borg and Think Tank look technologically superior. Which would make the method of holographic communication on Discovery is too far ahead of its time.

And the point of the holo-communicator in "For The Uniform" (DS9) wasn't actually to imply that things had suddenly made some quantum leap forward in advancement at all. Quite the opposite—and lending an unintended irony to your comment about "absurdity" above—the point was simply to absolve them of the need for lengthy viewscreen conversations between Sisko and Eddington, and the reasoning behind it was that it was considered "absurd" that something of that nature hadn't already been seen long before!

The problem is that the holo-communicating technology is only shown from races with advanced technology whether it be advanced races or from the future. Whether in someone's opinion it shouldn't have been that way all along since TOS is besides the point now. That's how it was made.

But the idea didn't turn out to be practical or dramatically necessary on an ongoing basis, which is why it never got used again after "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" (DS9):

If it's impractical and dramatically unnecessary to use holo-communication technology, that would have been all the more reason not to rock the boat by having it on the Discovery series.

And the dialogue from "For The Uniform" that you yourself quoted, and to which I earlier alluded, actually provides us a simple and plausible enough in-universe reason why this form of communication might not have been used more frequently, which can readily be retroactively extended even to ships that might previously have been so equipped:

SANDERS: You appear to be sitting on my bridge. It may take me a while to get used to this. I'm not fond of uninvited guests.

So your way of rationalizing not having holo-technology regularly in the future is to turn Sanders into Sisko's adversary as not being an invited person on his ship? It looks pretty clear to me that Sander's was joking. I wouldn't sacrifice basic human psychology to recognize humor in order to rationalize the events in Star Trek Discovery like this.

If you want a real-world analogy, just look at the history of 3-D movies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_film

I would say Discovery improved on the design of the new holo-communicator installed in episode "for the uniform". The Sarek hologram was able to walk around the room and sit down whereas the holographic image show in episode "for the uniform" was restricted to a small area that was visibly lit up on the bottom.

To extend on your real-world analogy

 

[Helder of Romulus]

In the end we will find out that DSC takes place in a parallel universe.

 

[starsuperion]

I can ignore STD, but I also take a bit of caution with Enterprise. Sure, continuity is subjective to each individual preconceived or not, the notion something is not wrong and doesn't violate continuity is also subjective. However, if a significant portion of trek fans think a show doesn't fit, then there's nothing wrong with that either. Its got it's own merits, and quite frankly each series could stand on its own. It's up to the viewer to decide whether they want to accept it into their viewing collection. Just because somethings official, doesn't mean you have to buy it, or consider it Canon. I still don't own a single season of Enterprise, but then why would I.. I'm an OG (Original Gangsta) old school. My original trek ends at Voyager. I own the first JJ Abrams Star Trek (into darkness sucked) All the TOS and TNG movies and TAS series. I'm good continuity wise, although, were they to do an Enterprise J series, temporal cold war tie in, and sphere builder wars, I'd pick up Enterprise.. But as it stands, I can live without it. I got a 3D model of the J on my laptop with panoramic views. Its very nice! STD...I'm still on the fence. The transition better be very brilliant, and make 110% Logical sense in order for me to even start to believe in the continuity legitimacy of the series. The trial of Captain Kirk really shows the level of moral character that the TOS was modeling. It was a strive echoed by Picard in the Neutral Zone episode to the 20th century shrewd banker investor type. With STD, the ambiguous moral nature of everyone is just raw and dirty feeling. I almost want to shower after each episode. Like watching some drama that makes you loath the characters. Only liking them when their nature turns appealing, which after the rollercoaster is over, you kinda don't want to ride again, but hate to miss the train wreck. Its, hard to describe, it leaves you feeling ambiguous...and that's kinda annoying. There's no real protagonist, well Lorca, but only sort of..and that kinda sucks.

 

[marsh8472]

It's a reboot. Retcon is being too generous. The TOS uniforms are clearly fleet wide. There were many episodes where Kirk met others on outposts with the same outfit. Never did we see the space jumpsuit until it was starbase technicians of some sort, or private cargo ships uniforms. Transitioning to the TOS aesthetic would probably end up looking like a rehash of the Jar Jar ahem, JJ Abrams aesthetic.

Agreed. I'm sure Discovery is going to visit Earth eventually and you're going to see the same uniforms Discovery crew wear all over the place without an old-style uniform in sight. The idea that the writers of Discovery are eventually going to pander to the original series fans by dressing their officers in uniforms from the original series is not realistic.

 

[starsuperion]

Agreed. I'm sure Discovery is going to visit Earth eventually and you're going to see the same uniforms Discovery crew wear all over the place without an old-style uniform in sight. The idea that the writers of Discovery are eventually going to pander to the original series fans by dressing their officers in uniforms from the original series is not realistic.

Maybe they're gonna save the transition for when the subscribership starts to wane, so the gimmick will be, look! It's Canon real Canon now!! See we told you!

Ummm..yea, I can see that happening.

 

[fireproof78]

I like each series about equal with the exception of Star Trek Discovery which I am still evaluating. The evolving into a lizard thing in "Threshold" was alittle out there but not much different than TNG "Genesis" with the entire crew De-evolving, Barclay turning into a spider. Fans criticize VOY "Threshold" a lot, even to the point of calling it not part of canon.

Um, Braga himself dismissed it.

That's right, the main plot of episode "Threshold" best resembles Star Trek Discovery's main plot. And this is the episode of all episodes you've decided to ridicule?? What were you thinking?

That Star Trek has futzed with propulsion technologies before (i.e. Warp 10 before VOY, traveling to another galaxy in TOS and TNG, transwarp being introduced and abandoned).

But, hey! DISCO did it so its bad...

Agreed. I'm sure Discovery is going to visit Earth eventually and you're going to see the same uniforms Discovery crew wear all over the place without an old-style uniform in sight. The idea that the writers of Discovery are eventually going to pander to the original series fans by dressing their officers in uniforms from the original series is not realistic.

They likely will not visist Earth, but since the production team themselves have discussed leading in to the TOS aesthetic, perhaps the cynicism can be dialed back a bit?

 

[marsh8472]

Um, Braga himself dismissed it.

Braga's complaints are not persuasive enough to declare it not part of star trek canon.

That Star Trek has futzed with propulsion technologies before (i.e. Warp 10 before VOY, traveling to another galaxy in TOS and TNG, transwarp being introduced and abandoned).

But, hey! DISCO did it so its bad...

Instantaneous travel is a Threshold plot though. The examples you're mentioning are about faster rates of travel not instantaneous. If Discovery were a ship from the 25th century or later it would make more sense since we see Admiral Janeway go to the Delta quadrant instantly as well as timeships Aeon and Relativity can also travel across the galaxy instantly.

They likely will not visist Earth, but since the production team themselves have discussed leading in to the TOS aesthetic, perhaps the cynicism can be dialed back a bit?

They usually visit Earth at least once in every series. They will again if the pattern continues.

https://www.inverse.com/article/37357-star-trek-discovery-canon-changes-tos-tng says this:

In fairness, the canon reconciliation probably has more to do with thematic events happening within Starfleet and less to do with what kind of funky fabric the Starfleet uniforms are made out of. For many smart fans, there’s a difference between aesthetic and thematic continuity.

They don't think they'll fix canon either as far as appearances are concerned