So Kirk makes the same mistake TWICE in accepting promotion?

[J.T.B.]

If Paramount had been happy with the number of tickets TMP sold, they could've went straight to a sequel without any major changes. That would've saved them a ton of money. They could've done Roddenberry's "Spock shoots JFK" flick for a much smaller amount than what TMP cost.

Simply put, there is nothing that would make one think that Paramount was happy with how TMP performed.

TMP was a box office hit, so there would be no reason to be unhappy with the performance. Profitability, though, would be a different story, and considering the history of the production it would be understandable if they felt they'd dodged a bullet. If it had flopped it would have been very bad for Paramout.

 

[BillJ]

Sure as hell would been a lot more believable than telling the audience to believe 10 years in reality was 3 between TOS and TMP and then 3 in reality was 10 between TMP and TWOK.

I don't think most in the audience really cared all that much. Even as a fan, I didn't find the time elapsed all that problematic.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

You're probably right about Excelsior not being ready under any circumstance. (Who knows what would have happened with the transwarp had Scotty not tampered with their engines.) My point was that with Genesis being such a "hot spot," it was a poor choice to send an underarmed science vessel captained by man so obviously unprepared for trouble.

Which is why I speculated in my earlier post that Grissom was a last-minute replacement for the Reliant after the latter was destroyed. As Reliant handled the initial planetary survey, it's possible Terrell's crew would also have been the first to visit the Genesis planet. Reliant would likely have handled a BOP, as well.

--Sran

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Sure as hell would been a lot more believable than telling the audience to believe 10 years in reality was 3 between TOS and TMP and then 3 in reality was 10 between TMP and TWOK.

I don't think most in the audience really cared all that much. Even as a fan, I didn't find the time elapsed all that problematic.

You're probably right and to be honest I don't lose any sleep over it and don't care except for those random moments when I stop to think about.

My issue though is if you're going to spend all this time, money and resources to continue something like ST. Why not take the rather small effort to make it line up something reasonable to real time?

If you're going to do it do it right. Don't just gloss over 10 years that can be easily addressed in a realistic way.

Why is it in other jobs missing the details in what you do can get you in trouble or fired, but in things like films it's always given a pass as "Oh well it's just a movie." Sometimes it's an honest mistake, but often it's just lazy filmmaking and if you or I were that lazy and didn't pay attention to detail in our work we could be out of a job.

 

[BillJ]

Why is it in other jobs missing the details in what you do can get you in trouble or fired, but in things like films it's always given a pass as "Oh well it's just a movie." Sometimes it's an honest mistake, but often it's just lazy filmmaking and if you or I were that lazy and didn't pay attention to detail in our work we could be out of a job.

I don't think "lazy filmmaking" factors into it. Probably more of a calculated decision. Which one are audiences going to find more likely: Jim Kirk taking back his ship after a short time off or taking it back after a decade away? If they even care that much. TWOK has to deal (or not) with TMP's decisions, but that doesn't make TMP's story details lazy.

Plus, you have Roddenberry who probably still had the romantic idea of the Enterprise being Kirk's ship. A decade away wouldn't have made sense in that context.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Why is it in other jobs missing the details in what you do can get you in trouble or fired, but in things like films it's always given a pass as "Oh well it's just a movie." Sometimes it's an honest mistake, but often it's just lazy filmmaking and if you or I were that lazy and didn't pay attention to detail in our work we could be out of a job.

I don't think "lazy filmmaking" factors into it. Probably more of a calculated decision. Which one are audiences going to find more likely: Jim Kirk taking back his ship after a short time off or taking it back after a decade away? If they even care that much. TWOK has to deal (or not) with TMP's decisions, but that doesn't make TMP's story details lazy.

Plus, you have Roddenberry who probably still had the romantic idea of the Enterprise being Kirk's ship. A decade away wouldn't have made sense in that context.

I didn't ever say he would have not commanded the enterprise for a decade. I said you continued her original run after TOS was cancelled which is 2 years. A year back at earth for overhaul and a second 5 year mission. So now 8 years total. Then kirk goes to flag rank and the enterprise gets it's refit both of which lasted about 2 years.

So kirk would have been admiral for 2 years which he was in the film and the enterprise wouldn't have had a mission without him in command since TOS. And it fits nicely into a 10 year window of reality as well as the film. I think it is a little lazy to just say oh only 2 or 3 years passed, especially given how clearly older Shatner doohan and nimoy were. Doesn't drive me to drink, but is disappointing they couldn't have a little more thought into a ten year RW gap beyond saying "oh it's only been 2 or 3 years in movie time. That's stretching it imho.

 

[Cyclonus]

I think the crux of the problem is that TMP and TWOK were made by two different creative teams, each with their own ideas on how to handle the ST franchise. TMP is vague enough regarding the timeline that, taking it on its own terms, it could be anywhere between three to ten years since the Enterprise returned from their five-year mission. The fact the actors are visibly older than the supposed age of their characters is problematic, but it would be even worse to have TWOK take place just a few years later and have the status of Enterprise and her crew change so drastically. (I said something more or less along these lines in an earlier post.) Under the circumstances, the currently-accepted chronology works things out very well.

 

[eyeresist]

I'd say there is no real proof Kirk's command of the Enterprise lasted any longer than the shakedown cruise after TMP.

That's what I thought too. Admiral Kirk was on the Enterprise on temporary special assignment, in charge of the V'ger mission. The fact that the ship's captain went MIA would certainly not automatically lead to Kirk assuming permanent command. There would be a certain procedure for assigning ship commands, and an admiral swooping down to pick his own assignment would be most improper. Also, Kirk's Starfleet position was a responsibility that he couldn't just shrug off on a whim. (There was probably a mounting pile of paperwork waiting in his office when he got back to Earth.)

 

[enterprisecvn65]

IIRC after the Enterprise escaped the wormhole caused by the warp engines and Kirk reported no casualites, didn't McCoy say something like "There is one ADMIRAL....my wits."

 

[Trimm]

IIRC after the Enterprise escaped the wormhole caused by the warp engines and Kirk reported no casualites, didn't McCoy say something like "There is one ADMIRAL....my wits."

No, he says "Wrong Mister Chekov, there are casualties; my wits. As in frightened out of captain sir."

 

[enterprisecvn65]

IIRC after the Enterprise escaped the wormhole caused by the warp engines and Kirk reported no casualites, didn't McCoy say something like "There is one ADMIRAL....my wits."

No, he says "Wrong Mister Chekov, there are casualties; my wits. As in frightened out of captain sir."

My mistake. Thanks.

As for whether or not Kirk retained command of the Enterprise for an extended period after TMP really is muddied by having two different teams for the first two films.

If you read into the end of TMP with that beauty pass of the Enterprise jumping to warp with the grand music, it sure as hell seems like they're telling audience "The band is back together".....Wasn't there even an end line like "The human adventure is just begining"

But TWOK, depending on how you view it, can be read as either he was captain for many years again until the refit, or he went back to administrative duties shortly after TMP.

I do know I've seen novels with Kirk in the TMP pajama uniform on the cover, indicating he stayed captain for a while. Non canon I know........but who knows. It be nice from a fan standpoint sometimes to have an "official" record of the time between TMP and TWOK.

 

[Trimm]

My mistake. Thanks.

As for whether or not Kirk retained command of the Enterprise for an extended period after TMP really is muddied by having two different teams for the first two films.

If you read into the end of TMP with that beauty pass of the Enterprise jumping to warp with the grand music, it sure as hell seems like they're telling audience "The band is back together".....Wasn't there even an end line like "The human adventure is just begining"

But TWOK, depending on how you view it, can be read as either he was captain for many years again until the refit, or he went back to administrative duties shortly after TMP.

I do know I've seen novels with Kirk in the TMP pajama uniform on the cover, indicating he stayed captain for a while. Non canon I know........but who knows. It be nice from a fan standpoint sometimes to have an "official" record of the time between TMP and TWOK.

There are some novels that cover the period between TMP and TWOK, some more interesting than others. Our own Christopher Bennett's Ex Machina takes place immediately after TMP. I think two of the Mere Anarchy series take place during that time, the New Earth series also is set in the post TMP timeframe. I'm sure some of our more literary inclined members could chime in here with others. None of these are "official" of course, but I doubt we'll ever have anything like that to go on.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Regarding Mere Anarchy, only Christopher's The Darkness Drops Again takes place between TMP and TWOK, as it spans the majority of the gap between the two films. The initial chapters are set during 2273, before the story jumps ahead to 2279 (at which point Kirk is an admiral again) and 2282 (during Kirk's hiatus from Starfleet).

Dave Galanter's Shadows of the Indignant takes place in 2271, approximately two years before TMP.

--Sran

 

[BillJ]

It be nice from a fan standpoint sometimes to have an "official" record of the time between TMP and TWOK.

I'd rather there not be one, it allows the imagination to run wild.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It be nice from a fan standpoint sometimes to have an "official" record of the time between TMP and TWOK.

I'd rather there not be one, it allows the imagination to run wild.

I don't mean there should be an official year by year one....but a general outline of the events of the period between TMP and TWOK would be handy. Like if Kirk did resume command of the Enterprise, did he do another multi year stint, when did Spock take over, when was Chekov promoted to first officer on Reliant, when did Scotty get so plastered he had to be treated by Dr. McCoy and was it during a football match with England and he put on his Scottish ass kicking boots and jumped into a fan riot....etc. I don't need a blow by blow account of every adventure.

But when fans can't even agree whether or not he kept command of the Enterprise for a significant amount of time at the end of TMP or whether he only had a short stint and than was back at starfleet HQ as an Admiral.....a little clarification would be nice.

 

[gottacook]

...a general outline of the events of the period between TMP and TWOK...

As noted earlier, respectfully: WHAT period between TMP and TWOK?

By internal evidence of the movies - leaving aside all comment or suggestion by or about the people who made and marketed the films, who decided to remove or replace the II in the title of TWOK, etc., more than a generation ago - there is nothing to suggest any continuity between the two stories, other than the reuse of a little footage of spaceship models. All else is inference about the intent of Paramount, Meyer, et al. Of course the passage of time (as indicated by changes in uniforms, set decor, Kirk at a desk job again, etc.) is explicitly part of the story of TWOK, but there is no evidence to suggest this was time elapsed since TMP (rather than since the end of the original mission). I am sympathetic with the idea of Spock having evolved since what happened to him in TMP, but he could have loosened up for other reasons.

Obviously people write, sell, and buy novels set in the period "between" TMP and TWOK. But to me that would be like trying to reconcile the two Doc Martin TV movies with the series that followed - which, despite being shot in the same British seaside town and having the same lead actor, was utterly different in character. The producers and writers recognized that a complete reset was needed, and accomplished it successfully - quite analogous to the origin of TWOK, seems to me, even though the latter didn't involve complete replacement of the supporting cast.

 

[Ithekro]

By the same logic there is no evidence to suggest that TWOK makes TMP unimportant within the timeline of the characters.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

By the same logic there is no evidence to suggest that TWOK makes TMP unimportant within the timeline of the characters.

I don't see what the big deal is either way. Nothing about either film precludes the possibility that both occurred, or that there must have been a certain amount of time that passed between the films (other than the lines spoken about how long Khan and his followers had been on Ceti Alpha V).

--Sran

 

[Nebusj]

By internal evidence of the movies - leaving aside all comment or suggestion by or about the people who made and marketed the films, who decided to remove or replace the II in the title of TWOK, etc., more than a generation ago - there is nothing to suggest any continuity between the two stories, other than the reuse of a little footage of spaceship models.

I should be interested to know your opinion as to whether Nemesis discards the continuity of Insurrection and First Contact then.

 

[Smellmet]

I reconcile it in my head by thinking the line about 'two and a half years of chief of Starfleet Operations' line came at the end of an eight year hiatus from the Enterprise for Kirk who has been doing something that is never explained. That'll do me.