So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

[Mojochi]

^I don't think he wanted to be hated either. I think he quite correctly expected to be unwelcomed, & that it would take the form of resistance to his authority. His choice was to either be accommodating about it & risk not delivering what he was expected to deliver, or the better choice would be to embrace the imposition & use it to his advantage, not dissimilarly to how he used his "Unreasonable Captain" stance with the Cardassians too

The mark of a brilliant tactician & a useful leader is to turn weaknesses into strengths & obstacles into tools or weapons. I'd say he did that exceedingly well, in both cases, & if some of them were too dim or stubborn to get on board with that, then they're the fools, & truthfully, only Riker let it go that far. Everyone else by the end was working exceptionally well with Jellico in succeeding with their mission, & even Riker got the chance to redeem himself to a degree

 

[Use of Time]

Exactly. There was no time to feel each other out and learn how to be intuitive to what your crew is thinking. A unified front needed to be presented to the Cardassians and given the timeframe Jellico had to work with he opted for the stricter style.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Exactly. There was no time to feel each other out and learn how to be intuitive to what your crew is thinking. A unified front needed to be presented to the Cardassians and given the timeframe Jellico had to work with he opted for the stricter style.

It really is amazing how poorly Riker and company handled the situation. Cardassians aren't a people to whom one can show weakness and expect to come away unscathed. What did they think was going to happen if Gul Lemec and his men picked up on the tension within the Enterprise senior staff?

--Sran

 

[Use of Time]

Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.

Agreed. Data seemed to work well with him. I don't remember much about how Worf got on with him.

I do remember Crusher openly sulking about the possibility of casualties being sent her way during battle. What the hell did she think he was supposed to do? Not fight back if the Cardassians started shooting? Let them march right into Federation space? How many people would have died then?

I hope there was off-camera moment following Picard's return in which he said something about the way Jellico was treated. I can't imagine Jellico complaining about it, but captains have a way of knowing when there's been trouble. Had I been in Picard's shoes, I'd have been furious.

--Sran

 

[Mojochi]

Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.

Geordi came on strong later on too. It was ultimately the command team of Jellico, Data, & Laforge that reasoned out The Cardassian plan, and set the mission up to go on the offensive.

& even Troi got savvy enough to know to keep in line, & was actually the only one to somewhat agree with Jellico's plan to engage the Cardies at Minos Korva

Plus, as I've mentioned, it was Geordi that got Jellico to reinstate Riker for the piloting mission. Once Riker is relieved, everyone else really falls in line & functions exceptionally well as a team, except Crusher's one objection, which went without too much difficulty

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^Riker's benching was the writing on the wall: either get your act together or get out. The crew didn't have a choice but to follow Jellico's orders once he confined Riker to quarters. I don't mean to imply that they had a choice before that happened, but their perception of the situation changed once Jellico put his foot down.

--Sran

 

[Mojochi]

^Riker's benching was the writing on the wall: either get your act together or get out. The crew didn't have a choice but to follow Jellico's orders once he confined Riker to quarters. I don't mean to imply that they had a choice before that happened, but their perception of the situation changed once Jellico put his foot down.

--Sran

Though nothing is stated either way, I suspect Riker was in his quarters of his own free will, not confined there, because Jellico explicitly stated to not make him do that

I actually take it as a sign that Riker's bucking the chain of command had repercussions on their subordinates. It gave them the will to not respect the captain too. Once the agitator was gone, the chain of command returned to normal, & everyone actually benefited from a more functional dynamic

 

[Dale Sams]

The more I think about it (and having just watched BOBW) the more..."Now I see why he didn't get his own command" comes off as utterly insane. We ARE talking about the guy whose plan saved Earth, and probably the Federation and the AQ aren't we??? I mean seriously Jellico? You come in and start blasting orders, keep your officers in the dark as to your intentions...and then stand there baffled when there are communication problems and slander a ****ing hero? Look in the mirror dude.

If there were any kind of hearing...Jean Luc Picard giving testimony that Jellico said that about Riker...that ALONE would probably get Jellico shipped off to Delta Vega.

I'm not saying Jellico was wrong to relieve Riker, but that stuff above is just ignorant.

 

[Dale Sams]

Yep. Show me one example of the crew attempting to do things Jellico's way or actively trying to help him with the mission. I'm not talking about suggesting he lighten up or attempts to convince him to leave things alone. I'm talking about someone saying "yes sir we will get it done." The only ones that come to mind are Data and possibly Worf.

Agreed. Data seemed to work well with him. I don't remember much about how Worf got on with him.

I do remember Crusher openly sulking about the possibility of casualties being sent her way during battle. What the hell did she think he was supposed to do? Not fight back if the Cardassians started shooting? Let them march right into Federation space? How many people would have died then?

I hope there was off-camera moment following Picard's return in which he said something about the way Jellico was treated. I can't imagine Jellico complaining about it, but captains have a way of knowing when there's been trouble. Had I been in Picard's shoes, I'd have been furious.

--Sran

Crusher just went through a lot and hasn't got her mind wrapped around the situation yet. I'd give my CMO a pass on that. And I'm absolutely sure that Picard has no time for drama after what he's been through.

At the end of the day, I'm sure everyone probably said, "That could have gone better" and Riker said, "Well...that escalated quickly."

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The more I think about it (and having just watched BOBW) the more..."Now I see why he didn't get his own command" comes off as utterly insane.

Jellico said, "I see why he's still just a first officer," before Picard tried to redirect his thinking, but that's beside the point. I don't think he was criticizing Riker's past accomplishments as much as he was questioning his initiative, something that an aspiring captain would need to show before taking the center seat of any vessel.

I agree that Jellico's communication skills needed work, but as captain, the onus wasn't on him to make sure his orders were carried out. That responsibility fell to Riker as his executive officer, a responsibility Riker was more than willing to throw away just because he didn't agree with Jellico's command style. What Riker did was childish and something that I hope was noted in his record. The events of "Chain of Command" aren't mentioned again, but one can only hope Riker learned as much from this incident as he did his problems with Admiral Pressman.

--Sran

 

[Mojochi]

Besides, The real hero of BoBW is Data. Without Data hacking the collective, nothing Riker did while in command would have amounted to jack. I think Riker being the savior of Earth from the Borg is vastly ovberblown

 

[BillJ]

^ One thing we're all overlooking at this point: there wasn't really a need for a 4 shift rotation, was there? In the conflict with the Borg, the writers never even brought it up. You'd just assume that in any dire situation, people would be pulled from off-duty or slumber to jump in and help for as long as they were needed.

So why institute this shift rotation? Without a good hard case to show WHY Jellico instituted this 4 duty shift rotation, it kind of falls flat.

Because you're likely sharper looking at a display for six hours instead of eight. The longer you sit there, the more likely it is that your response time suffers.

 

[BillJ]

The more I think about it (and having just watched BOBW) the more..."Now I see why he didn't get his own command" comes off as utterly insane. We ARE talking about the guy whose plan saved Earth, and probably the Federation and the AQ aren't we??? I mean seriously Jellico? You come in and start blasting orders, keep your officers in the dark as to your intentions...and then stand there baffled when there are communication problems and slander a ****ing hero? Look in the mirror dude.

If there were any kind of hearing...Jean Luc Picard giving testimony that Jellico said that about Riker...that ALONE would probably get Jellico shipped off to Delta Vega.

So Jellico gets shipped off to Delta Vega because he doesn't think Riker is the superstar everyone thinks after averting a war that could have cost millions of lives?

Funny stuff.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

So Jellico gets shipped off to Delta Vega because he doesn't think Riker is the superstar everyone thinks after averting a war that could have cost millions of lives?

I agree. Jellico's entitled to his opinion. Riker didn't do much to change that opinion with his temper tantrum on the bridge. If anyone should have been worried about being shipped out, it's Riker, not Jellico.

--Sran

 

[DarthPipes]

You all are utterly ignoring "Now I know why he didn't get his own command" REALLY? Where was the Cairo... Jellico during the Battle of Wolf 359?

I'm not. But something kept Riker from getting his own command after Wolf 359. After losing thirty-nine starships, Starfleet would've had little choice but to kick Riker to the captain's chair of a starship. They suffered major losses all through the Dominion War yet Riker was left in the XO spot.

Definitely. Riker wouldn't have been allowed to remain first officer of the Enterprise. He would have been requested AND required to take command of a starship after the Borg incident.

When I first saw this episode, I thought Jellico was an ass but ultimately he came through and saved the day. As I got older, I realized he was right in the way he went about his business and the crew was wrong. By asking Will to pilot the shuttle instead of ordering him, Jellico proved to be the bigger man than Will.

Most of the Trek books seem to take the view that Jellico is an ass and he's pretty much written that way.

I will say one thing, Necheyev didn't exactly get things started on the right foot by marching into Picard's ready room and declaring that he was no longer the captain of the Enterprise. Seriously, there's got to be a better way to ease into that conversation. I always thought sending old man Picard to let a covert operation in the field was an odd choice too.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I always thought sending old man Picard to let a covert operation in the field was an odd choice too.

Well, they justified that decision because of his experience with theta-band emissions while captain of the Stargazer.

--Sran

 

[R. Star]

I always thought sending old man Picard to let a covert operation in the field was an odd choice too.

Well, they justified that decision because of his experience with theta-band emissions while captain of the Stargazer.

--Sran

So? Why can't they take the science officer who's 20 years younger on that Starship or something? It doesn't have to be the captain of the ship.

It was thin rationale for the sake of the plot, but at least they tried to explain it. The real endgame was to get Picard into the room with Madred.

 

[Tiberius]

I always thought sending old man Picard to let a covert operation in the field was an odd choice too.

Well, they justified that decision because of his experience with theta-band emissions while captain of the Stargazer.

--Sran

So? Why can't they take the science officer who's 20 years younger on that Starship or something? It doesn't have to be the captain of the ship.

It was thin rationale for the sake of the plot, but at least they tried to explain it. The real endgame was to get Picard into the room with Madred.

Probably some classified stuff only Picard knew about. A la omega.

 

[Dale Sams]

The more I think about it (and having just watched BOBW) the more..."Now I see why he didn't get his own command" comes off as utterly insane. We ARE talking about the guy whose plan saved Earth, and probably the Federation and the AQ aren't we??? I mean seriously Jellico? You come in and start blasting orders, keep your officers in the dark as to your intentions...and then stand there baffled when there are communication problems and slander a ****ing hero? Look in the mirror dude.

If there were any kind of hearing...Jean Luc Picard giving testimony that Jellico said that about Riker...that ALONE would probably get Jellico shipped off to Delta Vega.

So Jellico gets shipped off to Delta Vega because he doesn't think Riker is the superstar everyone thinks after averting a war that could have cost millions of lives?

Funny stuff.

Jellico-Millions
Riker-Quadrillions.

But, you're probably right. (No sarcasm). The only way I could make that work is for everyone on the E to conspire to paint him in the worst way possible.

Besides, The real hero of BoBW is Data. Without Data hacking the collective, nothing Riker did while in command would have amounted to jack. I think Riker being the savior of Earth from the Borg is vastly ovberblown

It was Riker's GD plan to capture Picard and use him to access the Collective.