Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Dale Sams, Apr 27, 2013.
Wasn't Picard pretty action heroish in Starship Mine?
He was action heroish as a young man too. He didn't get that artificial heart from an all bacon diet after all.
It was an action episode, yes, & he was the protagonist, yes, but he prevailed primarily through intelligence, & not jumping dune buggies off of cliffs
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but perhaps they should have watched that episode & maybe Captain's Holiday to understand how to cast Picard as a protagonist in an action for the films
Yes, but if he were any other man....
Sisko intimidates him.
To me it makes sense to have Picard in action-hero mode in First Contact, because the borg are actively attacking the enterprise and humanity. That's a very different scenario than "I, Borg", so you get a very different reaction.
Then how do you explain away him being completely composed in Decent. In part 1 before they knew it was Lore of Borg?
I'm trying to envision that line rewritten. "If you were any other man I would kill you where you stand! Except Captain Sisko. He is... unique. Any other man but him! And obviously Alexander. And of course I have far too much respect for General Martok. Any other man but those! Now, as for women...."
For all Riker's bitching he should be thankful he didn't get stuck with this Jellico!
Haha, that one was great.
Rikers later development didn't do the spotless hero any favours thats for sure. Just watched Second Chances and well...
Riker it turns out dumped Troi, to pursue his career pretty much out of the blue and after he had proposed to her. By the sounds of it not only did he not see her as planned on Risa but... he didn't even tell her in person. In retrospect its kind of funny that HE is the one who looks put out and Deanna is warm and friendly when they next meet in Encounter at Farpoint.
Better yet the episode showcases his treating subordinates like crap, with his treatment of Lt Riker, Think Jellico was out of order for dressing down Riker in ten Forward, that maybe he should have had a word in private, perhaps considered how jarring the new circumstance were? Well Commander Riker dresses down Lt Riker in the open, in Engineering and gives ZERO consideration to the unique circumstances....
Then warns Deanna to be careful, since if he was a douchebag eight years ago, then his other self probably is, and I can't help thinking that does indeed sour the relationship - TBF theres no reason why Troi should consider that eight years of being alone hoping to see his lover again would change LT Riker is some way
EDIT: And it just occured to me, that Riker going on about the women on Risa in "Captains Holiday" while Troi is present, given he stood her up there is in VERY poor taste.
An additional thought as I continue a watch through of TNG, you know who handles this situation exactly right?
Data - in Gambit. He sees a problem with the way Worf, as first officer is acting, and takes him aside to talk to him. He is even considers the situation enough to appologise if their friendship has been been ended due to his actions.
though when stating that Riker never openly opposed the captains orders he forgets Rikers actions towards Jellico to be fair.
And Worf was man enough to admit, hey he's been acting wrong. That was an example of everyone doing it right, even when they(or at least Worf) messed up.
I still tend to think that Riker, as both the enforcer of the Captains orders and the liaison between the crew and Captain, had been made a part of the loop with Admiral Nachev and Jellico he would have acted differently. He would have told Geordi, to get it done and if Geordi needed more men he would go to Jellico to ask for more men for Engineering. I think he was experienced enough to have had the argument about a captured Picard in private.
Also I think think Jellico exploited Data. Data doesn't lie unless the situation calls for it. And Jellico needed a "yes man" as his XO. Riker couldn't fit that role, especially since he was out of the loop.
Riker was "in the loop" by virtue of being the XO on the ship and required by duty to execute the captain's orders. There's absolutely nothing going on in this episode that prevents Riker from doing his job -- unless you're saying that Riker's difficulty in following orders stemmed from the fact that he wasn't included in high level discussions about the situation when Jellico and Nachaev discussed the mission. If that's the case, however, he shouldn't be working at a replimat, let alone on a starship.
Yes, Jellico indeed exploited Data's ability to follow orders and tell the truth. In other words - Jellico was utilizing the second officer's ability to be an effective XO since the actual XO wasn't actually interested in doing his job as long as Jellico was there.
Well, he did say "Captain Picard" but I agree, Data displays in that scene perhaps the most considerate attitude of just about any Trek captain ever, which works out well for him as Worf understands, & they have a longstanding relationship to their mutual benefit.
It's a technique which gave Data considerably more difficulty with Hobson on the Sutherland however. Unwelcomed commands coming from new commanders can meet resistance & sometimes the captain has to just tell the XO the shut it or find a new job, if it persists
Riker was nothing if not persistent in his resistance to Jellico
Data was not a "yes man". He carried out orders that were possible and when the orders could not be carried out he said so and explained why. It's to Jellico's credit that despite the enormous pressure he was under, he was able to swallow his pride and subdue his command ego and back off to a doable stance.
Ronny Cox had a tough job to fill. He had to convince us he was a capable commander with a different style, and whose actions can be seen as plausible, yet he still has to be the bad guy on the ship. I'm glad he had success with villains; when he was playing good guys, like in Deliverance or his own TV series "Apple's Way", he was often unmemorable. Except when playing his guitar with a kid on a banjo.
If the plan from the start was to plan an unstable lone wolf Captain with no fucks to give, then letting the senior staff in on it would be a bad idea. Jellico didn't need people acting the way they were told, he needed them reacting to him to his reputation. Gets an honest reaction out of the crew and you don't have to worry about someone slipping up in front of the Cardies.
In the very beginning of the two-parter Riker seems to be offended that he wasn't given command of the Enterprise in Picard's absence. Or at least that's the way Nechayev interprets Riker's reaction when she breaks the news.
Maybe there was some truth to Nechayev's observation (given that Riker had already officially served as captain of the Enterprise in BOBW somewhat understandable IMO). And maybe Riker's ego was even further bruised when Jellico turned out to be a very hands-on captain who wanted to be kept in the loop over every detail, while Picard seemed to have delegated command decisions over a lot of the ship's routine operations to Riker who then acted more of a "co-captain".
It could be a "As commmander of the Enterprise I saved Earth from the Borg, but now Starfleet (and the new captain) treats me like a junior lieutenant" thing.
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