So I was re-watching the West Wing...

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by JB2005, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    ...and I just don't see it that Toby was the one who leaked the information about the military space shuttle...
     
  2. barnaclelapse

    barnaclelapse Commodore Commodore

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    I need to give this show another shot. I always get about halfway through season one, and then I wind up stopping.
     
  3. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I suppose one could say it was a result of depression due to the combination of his brother's suicide, Leo's heart attack, and the upheavals in the office (C.J's ridiculous promotion, Josh leaving "abruptly"), but it's never sat well with me either. Toby had previously been portrayed as the most likely individual to go on a crusade against leaking information, and C.J. had previously been portrayed as being inclined to leak information when she felt strongly about an issue.
     
  4. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    I think CJ did leak it...and Toby took the fall for it...that would make more sense to me...
     
  5. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    After Season 4, it's basically a whole series of character sabotaging on the part of the producers. And Toby's was one of the worst.
     
  6. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    Even the guy playing Toby, whose name escapes me, didn't believe Toby had done it...
     
  7. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That would be Richard Schiff.

    Josh at least generally feels right to me in the post-Sorkin seasons.
     
  8. Claudia

    Claudia Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Honestly, I didn't have a problem with Toby leaking the story - even in season 2 he wasn't a teamplayer ("The Drop-In", his reaction to Bartlet's illness in "17 people"); so given the right circumstances, especially considering his brother's suicide, I can definitely see him go against the team, even against the administration. But then again, I never liked him, so I might be biased... *g*

    I don't think, though, that CJ leaked the information. She lost quite a bit of her fire after her promotion (ridiculous setup so that Josh can leave the White House IMO), and definitely wouldn't go against Bartlet and Leo. Granted, she might have had the connections to the press, but she had too much respect for her duties to follow through with her convictions.

    @ character assassination after season 4:

    I definitely agree, starting with that ridiculous friction between Leo and Josh in early season 5.
     
  9. Goliath

    Goliath Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Interesting. I recently picked up seasons 1-4 on DVD--they were on sale, cheap. And as I re-watched the show, I was struck by how cheerful and hopeful and idealistic it seemed, overall. A real relic of the 1990s, even though it lasted well into the grim-and-gritty 2000s.

    I decided not to buy seasons 5-7 because I read that Sorkin had left the show after 4. From what I'm reading here, it seems like I made the right decision.
     
  10. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    5-7's a mixed bag...but I'd say it's certainly worth buying s7 for the Jimmy Smitts/Alan Alda campaign
     
  11. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    Not in Season 5, that whole screaming at DC moment... "Is that all you got!?" Bleh. He did recover in Season 6 and 7, though.


    To me the worst was the friction/jealousy between Leo and the President. All the shit between Leo and Jed... I just couldn't believe ANYTHING would really come in between them.
     
  12. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's similar to how he secretly aided Rafferty's Presidential campaign in Drought Conditions even though Bartlet made it clear he didn't want to get involved in the nomination process. You also have the fact that Vinick was the favourite to win the election, and Russell and Santos didn't appear to have the same level of integrity as Bartlet, so he feared that all the "good" work he had done in the last eight years was about to be undone. That realisation, combined with his depression, pushed him over the edge into doing whatever good he could in the time he had remaining.

    It's a stretch, but it just-about works. Sorkin would never have done it, but it's better than the dull stories that dominated season 5 and its attempt to maintain the status quo.

    At least give it until the end of season 2. That arc leading up to the season finale is some of the finest TV ever made, and the finale itself is something else.

    Season 5 is pretty dull as they tried to stick to Sorkin's formula and failed badly. Seasons 6 and 7 are pretty good as the writers decided to do shake things up and focused on the campaign to replace Bartlet. That meant they had to come up with some questionable decisions (such as CJ's promotion and Toby's leak) to get some staffers to leave the White House, but once they're in their new positions everything is fine, although it's still not up to the standard of the first four seasons.
     
  13. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree. Toby was a definite team-player and the most outspoken individual in defending the administration. His willingness to challenge the others, even Bartlet, never meant that he would actively aim to hurt the administration, as the military shuttle leak did. See his behavior in "Bad Moon Rising" when he intentionally leaks information to see if the White House team is up for the challenges ahead with the coming reveal of Bartlet's MS, and how disappointed he was with the communications staff during another leak situation (can't recall the name of the episode).

    While I don't disagree that C.J. lost a bit of her "fire" after getting promoted, I definitely disagree that she wouldn't act against the administration. See "Take Out the Trash Day" where she very nearly leaked the story about the Lydells, and her outspoken anger in "The Women of Qumar" regarding the lease of a military base in that country due to its treatment of women.

    Season 5 was pretty damn rocky with a few really good episodes; season 6 got back to being a pretty good show, particularly later in the season; and I'm generally happy with season 7, despite the C.J. and Toby issues.

    Ah, yes, good point. I had forgotten about that, as well as the odd friction between Josh and Leo that Claudia pointed out.

    Yeah, "just-about works" is the most favorable characterization I could see to award to those decisions and an attempt to rationalize them with what we were given. It still all feels rather tenuous, though. Some days I prefer to think that Toby was covering for C.J.
     
  14. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    I wish I was you. It was ETCHED into my mind.
     
  15. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    The way I saw it, Toby took the fall for CJ. Both him and Bartlet knew he did so which was why Bartlet told him he couldn't resign, but had to fire him. It was also why Toby was playing hardball with the AG's office and why Bartlet was so tourn on the pardon.
     
  16. IndyJones

    IndyJones Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't disagree with you here, but it's a shame they had to go to such lengths to get rid of people. In reality there's a ton of turnover in the West Wing, and it's more unbelievable that all those people stuck around for so long.
     
  17. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I saw and enjoyed most of the S6 campaign episodes, but only caught a few S7s here and there, and my main thought was "military space shuttle"?! What is this, some low-rent Tom Clancy fanfic?! :rolleyes:
     
  18. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Season 5 is troubled, as the new writing staff tries to figure out how to run the show with Sorkin gone. Seasons 6 and 7 are very good, though (much, much better than Sorkin's own TV followup, Studio 60, for instance).
     
  19. Wereghost

    Wereghost Part-time poltergeist Rear Admiral

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    Personally, I thought that by the start of season six the people who took over from Sorkin had figured out how to do the show their way. It didn't last forever, though, as the election campaign storyline was for the most part an unbelievable snorefest punctuated by the occasional quality episode. That just took the focus away from the issue-based and character-based storylines that had made the show special to begin with.
     
  20. Random_Spock

    Random_Spock Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed. I just couldn't believe what they did to not only his character but to CJ's as well. Didn't really like the character assassination going on there.