Spoilers So I guess nobody's going to mention...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by StarTrek1701, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Uhura's looooong log entry in Of Gods and Men:rommie:

    Fan films without all the cheese and over-the-top fanservice just wouldn't be the same. It's all part of the charm, IMHO.
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You’re welcome to interpret the lines any way you want. Here are the relevant quotes:

    Picard: “You’re doing this to liberate the Remans.”
    Shinzon: “That is the single thought behind everything I have done. From building the Scimitar at a secret base to assembling my army. Finally coming to Romulus in force. I knew they would never give us our freedom. I would have to take it!”

    The argument was that the Romulan government was overseeing the construction of the Scimitar. Shinzon’s quote shows that not to be the case. His Romulan cohorts were members of the military, not the government. The implication is that the ship was built under the Romulan government’s noses, since they were completely unprepared when Shinzon took over. It’s all nonsensical, but the whole film is filled with nonsense, so this is no different.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    When did the argument turn into that sort of fine detail? The military would be the part of the government overseeing something like this - the only part that matters. The Tal'Shiar would not be their enemy, as trying to pretend that the Senate runs the show would get nobody anywhere. And if a Senator came and asked what was being built at this secret base, he or she could readily be told whatever he or she needed to know.

    Yet what Shinzon is doing in the above scene is lying to Picard, no two ways around that. He's not giving Remans freedom anywhere in the movie. Nothing he says needs be considered true, except when it's convenient for the overall story. Picard isn't in a position to question Shinzon's "facts", and OTOH he is at liberty to question his honesty regardless of the facts.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. seigezunt

    seigezunt Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Remans were such an embarrassing idea to introduce, briefly saved by the pretty good Vulcan's Soul novels.
    I expect if they come up at all, there will be some hand waving to explain them away. The design alone invites problems: do you keep that ridiculous and dated WB Nosferatu look, or try to update it in some way?
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see the need to do anything visually there. PIC is all about showing diverse looks: we're getting really weird Romulans left and right, and all sorts of faces in the crowds. Remans fit right in. As would Coneheads, or Wookies. And Trek past TOS has always done fun things with obscure background items and characters.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We know nothing of the sort. Based on what he said, he could totally have done what he did to free the Remans. But once that was accomplished, he became a little dictator to them because he’s basically full of himself. I think that if Shinzon’s motives concerning the Remans weren’t as pure as he was making them out to be, the Viceroy would have figured that out.

    But, whatever. Feel free to think what you want. It doesn’t change how crappy the Remans were portrayed in the film.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As we never learned the Viceroy's motivations, either, him finding out is neither here nor there. Although the one part of Shinzon's story that might be remotely true is that it was the Viceroy, not Shinzon, who was empowered down there in the mines. Might be the human clone was his puppet all along...

    Thinking of Shinzon as the liberator of Remans would be so much easier if we saw some liberation. But I don't see a need to think of Shinzon as such. Or of Remans as deserving of a less crappy portrayal. A henchman is a henchman, and usually those have ugly scars and a thick accent and little in the way of free will.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Just because they had a crappy portrayal doesn't mean they can't be used well.
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...Most of Trek has crappy production values by the benchmark of the day. Sometimes this is true for "the day = the time it was made", too: TNG never was particularly cutting edge, least of all when it went to the big screen. "Using crappy well" has been a central Trek skill for that reason alone already.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  10. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Ferengi had a crappy portrayal until about the time DS9 got started and then they finally had a chance to shine.
     
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  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed. Their one blink-and-then-they’re-gone appearance in ENT notwithstanding, I think that if a good writer really utilized them in a logical way, the Remans could absolutely be interesting. Say, by removing their silly getups and giving them some actual personality. But I’m not holding my breath on that.
     
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  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Take the slaves of an empire away from the empire, or take the empire away from around them... Prime opportunity for personality to surface!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly so. I have every confidence that something can be done with the Remans and would love to see them again.
     
  14. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TNG had absolutely state of art production values for a TV show of its era. Compare it to B5 that was made years later. Space shots in particular show a stark contrast. Granted, the films indeed were not so top notch. TOS also had great production values for its time. Have you seen old school Doctor Who? It's pretty eye-opening comparison.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    TOS had great production values for its time. For any other time, they are utter crap.

    TOS movies were made for TV, save for TMP which was made for the National Archives or something. Their production values haven't faded much, though: they are bottle shows to a great degree, and one bottle is like another.

    TNG movies did not have great production values. TNG sort of managed to tread water by portraying space the way Trekkies wanted to have it portrayed. DS9 and VOY were sadly chained to that. ENT and DSC had relatively high production values even if they made odd artistic choices - conservative for ENT, radical for DSC; PIC appears to be top notch for today, but the relative impact of that is less than it used to be in certain less scifi-saturated eras.

    Timo Saloniemi