So glad Rick Berman never listened to the "fans"...

[AuntKate]

It is difficult to argue against the assertion that people on this board who enjoy Voyager and think its crew was great are immediately criticized, if not belittled. It is such a common practice that I can't imagine how anyone could argue otherwise.

Voyager's premise at the beginning was bound to change as the series continued, especially since the issue that the Maquis was upset about was 70,000 light years away. The change was even more likely in light of Voy's role as UPN's lead series. Like the other Trek series before and after it, Voyager was flawed in many ways. Even so, it is enjoyable for the most part, dealt with many serious issues in new and interesting ways, and produced at least a few episodes that rank near the top of most people's "best ever Trek" list. There were also a few stinkers--but that is true for all the series.

 

[DevilEyes]

While the issue that the Maquis were founded to fight for was irrelevant in the Delta Quadrant, the Maquis were still a bunch of renegades and terrorists who were unlikely to share Starfleet views and discipline. Chakotay may be an exception because he had been Starfleet, but even so, he was a guy who left Starfleet to fight for what he thought was right, a fact that VOY writers seemed to forget in episodes such as Equinox, where Chakotay strongly disagrees with Janeway's actions but then caves because "it would be crossing the line", as if the Starfleet chain of command trumps fighting for what he thinks is right. And this guy was a Maquis leader? The other Maquis would be less likely to adjust that easily to the Starfleet discipline. B'Elanna was someone who had a number of disciplinary problems and suspensions at the Academy and eventually dropped out. Well forgive me for thinking that such a person would not become a good obedient Starfleet member in just a couple of days! Many of the other Maquis had never had anything to do with Starfleet. Yet they all agreed to wear Starfleet uniforms and became good Starfleet members in less than a season? You have to wonder why Starfleet ever bothered with the Academy in the first place, when people can be recruited and trained that easily. What is the point of introducing another faction to the Voyager crew, if it was going to immediately blend in completely with the Starfleet crew?

The only time VOY really utilized the Maquis premise was with Lon Suder, in an organization as the Maquis you'll also be likely to find some sociopaths who were just looking to fulfill their violent impulses.

I wouldn't expect constant mutinies or the Maquis and the Starfleet at each other's throats all the time, but it would make a lot more sense if there was some tension and disagreement over the objectives and means, or even just everyday issues. I find it hard to believe that they were all as eager to follow every Starfleet principle and norm as Janeway would be.

And, for that matter, Maquis or not Maquis, I find it hard to believe that every person on board the ship would support Janeway's almost every decision in a situation that Voyager was in. On the show, there was some disagreement in season 1 with Prime Factors, but later on it seemed that everyone was always behind Janeway 100%. Realistically, there would certainly be people who would want to get back home no matter what. But on the show, that was reserved only for a villain like Seska. And I think that there would also be people who would figure that they could never go back home, and would want to just find a place to live on a nice, habitable planet. (Maybe some of the Maquis would prefer that, since they were likely to get arrested if they managed to get back in Federation space.) But what happened on the show when Janeway suggested that anyone who wanted to stay on the planet could stay (I think it was in The 37s)? Not a single person applied! Oh come on.

 

[TheGodBen]

IMO I think Voyager's Starfleet/Maquis was Boba Fett all over again. I think many heard the crews was going to be Starfleet/Maquis and over hyped the idea themselves that there was going to be much more conflict than what we got. Right from "Caretaker" when both crews became one under Starfleet, so from the start that was a sign inner conflict was going to be minimal. I don't think inner conflict was ever going to be what the fans wanted it too be. IMO Voyager was simply supposed to carry on Trek's openning monolog theme:"Seek out strange new worlds and civilations. Too boldly go where no man has gone before." I think it was meant to be about exploring new parts of space rather than what issues the crew had that week.

I can't agree. The Maquis wasn't a story element thrown into Voyager at random, Ron Moore stated (AOL chat 1997) that when he wrote Journey's End Michael Piller told him about the plans for using the Maquis on Voyager, so the entire creation of the Maquis was mostly so that they could be on Voyager. Two episodes of DS9 and two of TNG were dedicated to introducing the Maquis, I seriously doubt that the rationale behind doing that was purely to have a small bit on conflict during the first two episodes of Voyager.

If the creators of Voyager wanted the characters to act in the same way as those on TNG then they would have just have had the ship be crewed by Starfleet. What was the purpose of creating the Maquis for Voyager then? Were the Maquis going to take part in the conflict against the Cardassians? No, the Cardassians were on the other side of the galaxy. What other purpose was there for creating the whole organisation of the Maquis, a group whose sole purpose for existing was in the Alpha Quadrant, and then sending them to the other side of the galaxy, if not to create conflict with the Starfleet personnel?

 

[AuntKate]

Voyager did have an episode about the difficulty the Maquis had in adjusting to a Starfleet set of rules and protocols called "Learning Curve." IMHO, one was enough. There was also the delightful "Worst Case Scenario" where Tuvok speculated about what might happen if the Maquis revolted. All of it died on the vine because continuing to deal with it would have been repetitive. Same thing for the gradual decline of the ship. "The Year of Hell" was fine for two episodes. It would have been a "season of hell" if it had been dragged out longer than that.

 

[Anwar]

It may have been the initial idea, but those don't always work when it gets to the screen. As we've explored, aside from one or two malcontents like Torres, Seska (who wasn't even Maquis) and Suder things just weren't that bad on VOY to justify the series-spanning crew tensions you guys seem to want.

Now, if they had sat down and realized "Wait a minute, aside from the DMZ thing the Maquis aren't truly opposed to the Feds nor are they true enemies. Why don't we just have the other crew be ROMULANS instead? I mean they've been the Fed's enemies the longest, and we haven't really explored them as people in a long time..."

And anyways, NuBSG's conflict only lasted 3 or so seasons if EVEN that and the show was over by S4. I doubt they'd have realistically kept the exact same people all being tense against one another for 7 years straight. Most conflict of that deep a nature would be resolves in 2 seasons AT MOST.

You can get nihilistic and just kill off the entire main cast and every recurring character every season so there can be a new cast that can be all tense with one another until they themselves are killed off at the end of the season, repeating that for 7 years, THAT might work if you want to maintain tensions for the entire series.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I can see both sides of the argument. In fact, renegades of Starfleet could present a problem on board a Starfleet ship. Also, B'elanna was a drop out at Starfleet, too. However, the fact that the majority of the Maquis crew had a deep respect for Chakota and his decision, suggests that they were simply being respectful and obedient to their leader. Plus, where would revolting get them? What is the benefit of staging a rebellion if they may never see their home again, anyways? Do they really think that their way of getting home is any better than Starfleets? After all, they are all after the same goal. The Maquis's situation of wanting to rebel didn't apply in the Delta Quadrant anymore. There was no Cardassians to fight. There was no homes or land to war over anymore. There were no other Maquis to group up to fight the good cause because there was no cause anymore. This is not to suggest that there wouldn't be a few malcontents, but to assume that it is not within the realm of possibility that Chakota's crew did not mutiny against him and the Starfleet crew of Voyager is not an unlikely scenario if you really think about it.

 

[Aike]

But Berman and UPN did listen to the fans through focus groups -- that is why they dropped the Maquis conflict...the fans didn´t like it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

a focus group isn't a fan(atic), A focus group is a random sampling of of people hijacked at a mall. In some attempt to make Voyager sympatico with people who probably to certainly had no like or interest in star trek (Can you make it more like Foot ball or wrestling?) or good story telling, which is exactly the people they wanted to talk to and (re)construct a tv show which will identify to atypical demographics for this sort of children's programming... The untapped wallets of house frau's and stockbrokers.

Homogenization is the death of all that is good in this world.

 

[InklingStar]

And Berman didn't want a "TNG Lite" either, a lot of what people DON'T like about VOY was forced on them by the network.

I agree with this. The Klingons in DS9, the TNG style in Voyager, and the Temporal Cold War in Enterprise were all mainly studio decisions. (Not UPN in the case of DS9, but still the higher-ups... you know what I mean.)

Anyway, sometimes studio interference can really break a show, but other times the producers find a way to make it work. Personally I feel that later episodes like "Worst Case Scenario" showed that the producers and writers wanted to show some conflict but were hamstrung.

I saw Farscape after Voyager and after the first season said "Now that's what Voyager should have been." Different people with different values and goals are thrust together and must rely on each other to survive, yet they aren't necessarily happy about it and there will often be disagreements and conflict. The conflict in Voyager was over by the second episode.

I believe Berman and Braga intended Year Of Hell to be a literal year, lasting an entire season, with lasting repercussions. That would have been awesome. I think the Xindi arc in Enterprise was done very well and I think a Year Of Hell arc in Voyager could have been just as good or better. Show the consequences of running out of torpedoes, shuttles, and energy. Show the crew at their wits end. Kill off a few major characters.

Playing it safe gets boring after a while. I like quite a few individual Voyager episodes, especially in the last few seasons, but my overall opinion of the show is pretty apathetic. There was never a moment for me where I really felt any catharsis, like in DS9 with the end of the Dominion War, Enterprise with the end of the Xindi arc, or even the ends of some TNG arcs, such as they were. The worst part is that Voyager could have been epic. The setup for the show was the best out of all five series, in my opinion. They could have done so much.

 

[Anwar]

Well, Farscape had some inherent advantages VOY never would have had no matter HOW well-written it was. For example none of VOY's villain races could have shown up for more than a few episodes since they were always on the move and knew where they were going. In Farscape they were simply hiding in space the Peacekeepers could easily track them to, so it made sense they'd keep showing up since Moya was never heading away from them.

See, there's another comparison failure. People keep saying VOY's aliens should have been as well-developed as the Peacekeepers or the Cyclons, but it took Farscape and NuBSG 3 seasons at least to develop their aliens. VOY had less than HALF of ONE season for each of their aliens, and it wouldn't make sense to just run into one species at a time so that means they couldn't just have them show up one at a time either.

So that means they somehow had to meet the fandom expectations of making aliens on par with the Romulans and Klingons in SIX EPISODES and then have them never show up again. Running through, that would mean creating like 4 well-developed species every season for 7 years. The fandom wanted 28 well-developed aliens races out of VOY while NuBSG only ever had one, Farscape only really had two, and the other Trek shows had even LONGER than either of those shows to develop 5 alien races in total!

 

[Admiral Shran]

Two episodes of DS9 and two of TNG were dedicated to introducing the Maquis, I seriously doubt that the rationale behind doing that was purely to have a small bit on conflict during the first two episodes of Voyager.

I agree with that completely, couldn't have said it better myself.

I do think that VOY was hampered by studio interference. There are later episodes that show that the showrunners wanted some kind of conflict between the Starfleet and Maquis crews - Worst Case Scenario and Repression being good examples.

 

[exodus]

IMO I think Voyager's Starfleet/Maquis was Boba Fett all over again. I think many heard the crews was going to be Starfleet/Maquis and over hyped the idea themselves that there was going to be much more conflict than what we got. Right from "Caretaker" when both crews became one under Starfleet, so from the start that was a sign inner conflict was going to be minimal. I don't think inner conflict was ever going to be what the fans wanted it too be. IMO Voyager was simply supposed to carry on Trek's openning monolog theme:"Seek out strange new worlds and civilations. Too boldly go where no man has gone before." I think it was meant to be about exploring new parts of space rather than what issues the crew had that week.

I can't agree. The Maquis wasn't a story element thrown into Voyager at random, Ron Moore stated (AOL chat 1997) that when he wrote Journey's End Michael Piller told him about the plans for using the Maquis on Voyager, so the entire creation of the Maquis was mostly so that they could be on Voyager. Two episodes of DS9 and two of TNG were dedicated to introducing the Maquis, I seriously doubt that the rationale behind doing that was purely to have a small bit on conflict during the first two episodes of Voyager.

If the creators of Voyager wanted the characters to act in the same way as those on TNG then they would have just have had the ship be crewed by Starfleet. What was the purpose of creating the Maquis for Voyager then? Were the Maquis going to take part in the conflict against the Cardassians? No, the Cardassians were on the other side of the galaxy. What other purpose was there for creating the whole organisation of the Maquis, a group whose sole purpose for existing was in the Alpha Quadrant, and then sending them to the other side of the galaxy, if not to create conflict with the Starfleet personnel?

I guess because after some serious thought they figured it was a dumb idea. Why carry on a conflict with others that have no involvement in the dispute with the Cardassians, in a situation that's happening 75 thousand light years away when you have a more immediate problem like not knowing where the hell you are or where next meat supply is coming from? Both sides already knew for what was explained in "Learning Curve" that conflict would be anti-productive. My guessing is teaming up the Maquis w/ Starfleet was to have a team of folks on Voyager that were used to suriving with limited resources. If anything, the Maquis became trained survivalists due to their situation. It was Chakotay & Neelix that lead the away team missions for supplies during the first few seasons because they both had foraging skills. All the skills Chakotay's father tried to teach him, all came in handy in the Delta Quad. That passed on knowledge saved them all in "Basics", for example. Nobody in Starfleet even knew how to make a fire.

They probably also took the feed back they were getting from DS9 and how many were finding the inner conflict between Starfleet/Bajorian/Maquis/Cardassian becoming played out & dull and didn't wish to drag a out something that was already running it's course.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Maquis never had any beef with the Federation until Eddington. Folks in Starfleet sympathized with them. The Maquis were Federation citizens and never commited any acts against Starfleet. The Maquis enemy were the Cardassians, not the Federation. The only reason the Federation got involved was because Cardassian threated to kill off all the Maquis if Starfleet didn't get them under control. Upon finding out the Cardassains were suppling their people with weapons to harrass the Federation colonies, Starfleet backed off because they then understood the Cardassians purposely started this problem and was theirs alone to deal with.

Actually in the DS9 episode they were introduced in Sisko flat out told them the Federation considered the Maquis enemimes and were siding with the Cardassians in the conflict between the two groups. Not to mention the Federation signed the treaty that put the colonies the Maquis were from in Cardassian space. Also lets not forget the Hudson made a big show of vaporizing his Starfleet uniform. So I really don't thin they liked Starfleet and the Federation that much.

 

[exodus]

The Maquis never had any beef with the Federation until Eddington. Folks in Starfleet sympathized with them. The Maquis were Federation citizens and never commited any acts against Starfleet. The Maquis enemy were the Cardassians, not the Federation. The only reason the Federation got involved was because Cardassian threated to kill off all the Maquis if Starfleet didn't get them under control. Upon finding out the Cardassains were suppling their people with weapons to harrass the Federation colonies, Starfleet backed off because they then understood the Cardassians purposely started this problem and was theirs alone to deal with.

Actually in the DS9 episode they were introduced in Sisko flat out told them the Federation considered the Maquis enemimes and were siding with the Cardassians in the conflict between the two groups. Not to mention the Federation signed the treaty that put the colonies the Maquis were from in Cardassian space. Also lets not forget the Hudson made a big show of vaporizing his Starfleet uniform. So I really don't thin they liked Starfleet and the Federation that much.

Upon further viewing of those same eps. they are told that because the Cardassians are lying. In the second part Sisko & Dukat find out the truth that the Cardassain Central Gov. were sending in weapons thru a second party to arm their colonist to purposely harrass the Federation colonists, all before the Maquis came to be.(Just as they had done in the "Circle Triology") The aggressors and enemy was always the Cardassians.
Hudson vaporized his uniform because he like other Maquis knew Starfleet was supporting the wrong side at the time. It wasn't until Kira stepped up that Sisko started to question what he'd been told himself and that the Starfleet was being fed false info by the Cardassian Gov.. O'Brian even mentions to Eddington (before he defected), that he was sympathic to the Maquis for loosing their homes too. The Federastion gave them a choice, to stay or too relocate. They stayed. The Federation also warned them about the consequences for living under Cardassian rule. They blindly accepted it. By the end of "The Maquis" we discover that Cardassia broke the treaty, so the Maquis aren't enemies of the Fedaration............until Eddington.

The conflict was as Eddington put it, nobody leaves paradise. Starfleet didn't like the idea of all these Officers going AWOL on their posts to join the Maquis.

The point is, who in their right mind is still going to hold a political grudge 75 thousand light years away from home, lost & unaware where their next meal or medical aid will come from? I would think politics would be the least of the Voyager crews worries. That is why Chakotay had to correct Be'Lanna in her: "Who is she to make choices for us" speech because she was wrong. Continuing arguing over politics as Be"lanna did was selfish & wrong. She wasn't considering anyone else but herself and that's what continuing to argue politics in the far flung Delta Q. is a sign of. That's why continued interal conflict was a bad idea,giving us examples such as Seska & Michael Jonas proved it was a detriment and most likely why they dropped it.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The Maquis never had any beef with the Federation until Eddington. Folks in Starfleet sympathized with them. The Maquis were Federation citizens and never commited any acts against Starfleet. The Maquis enemy were the Cardassians, not the Federation. The only reason the Federation got involved was because Cardassian threated to kill off all the Maquis if Starfleet didn't get them under control. Upon finding out the Cardassains were suppling their people with weapons to harrass the Federation colonies, Starfleet backed off because they then understood the Cardassians purposely started this problem and was theirs alone to deal with.

Actually in the DS9 episode they were introduced in Sisko flat out told them the Federation considered the Maquis enemimes and were siding with the Cardassians in the conflict between the two groups. Not to mention the Federation signed the treaty that put the colonies the Maquis were from in Cardassian space. Also lets not forget the Hudson made a big show of vaporizing his Starfleet uniform. So I really don't thin they liked Starfleet and the Federation that much.

With damned good reason. Imagine the US summarily turned Texas over to Mexico...how would YOU feel if you were a Texican in that case?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, that's a bloody easy way to get universal health coverage for Texans I must say.

And would the Chinese re-target their missiles?

(Who the hell would bother targeting nukes at Mexico?)

Amazo was fucking the Justice League once in the comics, and he kept screaming "I will destroy the Justice League!" so just before this robot who can simultaneous duplicate all the powers and abilities of the Justice league was about to kill all these heroes, it s then that Superman finally says "I disband the Justice league, we are no more!!" (poser wanker, no?) and Amazo, being a robot is routed by this logic, seeing as how Superman destroyed the Justice league before he could destroy the justice league, Amazo turns himself off or flies off to live happily ever after...

If you Americans want to save yourselves from the terrorists, call the Mason-Dixy line half way, and give the North to Canada, and then the south to Mexico and then see what happens in the middle east when there is no America any more to speak of that all the nut jobs have to deal with their own social issues rather than focussing on foreign irrelevancies once America is actually dead.

Free education and free healthcare for all!!!!

 

[Admiral Shran]

The point is, who in their right mind is still going to hold a political grudge 75 thousand light years away from home, lost & unaware where their next meal or medical aid will come from?

I agree. Having the two crews continue to argue about the Cardassian situation would have been pointless. However, there still could have been tension and conflict between the two groups. The Maquis shouldn't have simply accepted everything Janeway decided without question. These were two groups with very different ways of doing things.

But, in the one episode where we see the two crews learning from one another, Learning Curve, it basically ends with the Maquis simply accepting the Starfleet lifestyle. More disagreement was needed, but not about the Cardassians.

For example, the Maquis could argue with how Janeway dealt with the Borg, or how she dealt with the Hirogen, or how she handled any other situation.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Well, the Maquis did argue with Janeway regarding how to deal with the Kazon. After the funeral of the Maquis Bendera, Hogan confronted Janeway about making an alliance with the Kazon.

HOGAN: Now that the Kazon have stepped up their attacks, a lot of people think that we're not going to make it out of here alive. I'd like to know what you have to say about that.
JANEWAY: Is there anything you have to say about that? I assure you, you can speak freely.
HOGAN: I'd give them what they want. Give them the replicators and the transporters and whatever else it is they're after.
JANEWAY: I'm sure you realize that would be a violation of the Prime
HOGAN: I know all about the Prime Directive, but you know what? The Federation is seventy thousand light years away. What does it matter what these people do to each other with our technology.

---------------

Chakotay took up his cause and pushed the Captain to consider it.

---------------

CHAKOTAY: You have, but a lot of the crew feel they haven't had the chance to voice their opinions.
JANEWAY: This isn't a democracy, Chakotay. I can't run this ship by consensus.
CHAKOTAY: A lot of the Maquis feel the Federation abandoned them years ago. You may be willing to die for Federation principles, but they're not.
JANEWAY: I can't believe you'd support that man's position.
CHAKOTAY: I don't. But isn't there something in between your position and his?

----------------------

He only balked when Janeway seriously considered Kim & B'Elanna's suggestion to contact Seska. (Which brings me to a fav Janeway quote!)

----------------------

CHAKOTAY: I think it's a bad idea.
Janeway; You can't have it both ways Commander. If you want to get in the mud with the Kazon you can't start complaining that you might get dirty.
CHAKOTAY: Fine. I'll talk with Seska.
JANEWAY: No, you've been through too much with her... (that's an understatement!)

--------------------------

These snippets show that the Maquis did question Janeway, Janeway heard and responded to their concerns after much interaction with her XO, and everyone learned what happens when you try and involve yourself with a "local" civil war between the Kazon and the Trabe. You get burned.

The crew also learned what happens when a Maquis goes counter to the Captain and tries to subvert Janeway. Seska was "Maquis", and an embarrassment to those who called her friend like B'Elanna and Chakotay. Jonas was Maquis and was yet again an embarrassment to those who called themselves Maquis. The Starfleet Captain did reward their small Maquis crew with two plum assignments, over other Voyager crew (Tuvok & Carey). The Starfleet Ensign did risk his commission time and again to save both his Captain and his Maquis XO from "New Earth", and he finally succeeded by bringing both crews together to challenge "Captain Tuvok".

I agree that there should have been conflict between the crews when they first started, which we did see scattered through different eps in season 1&2. But I also believe that if these two crews didn't learn to respect and like each other, they didn't have a snowballs chance in Gre'thor at getting home. As for arguing with the Captain... the more years they were together, and the more often they saw her roll "the hard eight", the less likely for them to argue with their Captain.

Remember, it was Lily in "First Contact" that confronted Picard and finally made him change his mind.

"Jean Luc, blow up the damn ship!"

 

[mswood]

The studio, and Berman/Braga, wanted a TNG-style series.

Actually people really need to stop putting Braga in comments like this. Braga was not a part of the creation of Voyager (well he gave nots on the pilot script, but he didn't even have a hand in the bible for the show. Voyager (love/ hate or anything in between) was developed by Piller and Taylor and then Berman (to a lesser degree as he focused more on the production side then the story development side). Absolutely the studio wanted a TNG style and tone show, but you can not include Braga in that group. Heck even when he became co-show runner in season four his very first major presentation was to do a year long arc which was shot down by the studio, he then took that idea and presented them in Year of Hell parts 1 and two and added the time travel element to reset it all. He pushed for a much darker, more realistic show, and was told absolutely no.

 

[Anwar]

Berman didn't want TNG lite either, the only one who did was Jeri Taylor and the UPN higher-ups.