So glad Rick Berman never listened to the "fans"...

[Danny99]

Thanks for underlining the topic title perfectly.

I would dare to say you came in here to pick a fight. Calling out people with things like "real fans" sarcastically is not the best way to start a productive discussion.

No, I certainly did not come in here to pick a fight..!

But why do I have to put up with people constantly suggesting I'm this brainless rodent for liking shows like VOY or ENT..? Aren't THOSE people really trying to pick a fight..?!

You could just ignore them, like you ignore grammar.

 

[kimc]

^ Okay, that's not helping the situation!

All of you, keep it about the posts and not the posters and no I don't mean the kind you hang on walls...

 

[Guy Gardener]

We just got Easter over and done with, and you have to make all that clap trap relevant again by bringing up the usefulness of crucification? There's been so often while watching Universe that some inescapable boil has festered from even the past weeks adventures, then ruptured into an ugly fog of steamed puss bent on soaking one and all which can't help but force me to utter "Fuck Voyager" for being so meek, callow and damnedly timid when telling almost exactly the same story as Homer a few millennia back.

 

[exodus]

I always thought there should have been a little more conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet crews. But after watching SGU lately I'm glad there wasn't. It's more annoying than exciting. Both shows have one ship tossed far from home with two sets of crews on each ship. On VOY they got along and dealt with their obstacles together. On SGU they fight amongst each other. It's kind of dumb. Give me happy go lucky Voyager I guess.

The difference between Voyager and SGU is that the Voyager crew could have afforded a mutiny though. I mean the crew of the Destiny has to fight for survival every day, so a mutiny doesn't make that much sense there. Voyager on the other hand was a pretty comfy place. In a situation where you have seemingly unlimited food and medical supply you have time to think: "Do I really like my leaders and if not, what can I do to change that?"

Why?

The Maquis never had any beef with the Federation until Eddington. Folks in Starfleet sympathized with them. The Maquis were Federation citizens and never commited any acts against Starfleet. The Maquis enemy were the Cardassians, not the Federation. The only reason the Federation got involved was because Cardassian threated to kill off all the Maquis if Starfleet didn't get them under control. Upon finding out the Cardassains were suppling their people with weapons to harrass the Federation colonies, Starfleet backed off because they then understood the Cardassians purposely started this problem and was theirs alone to deal with.

Generally speaking, can't someone be allowed to like Voyager & admire Berman without being labeled "an apologist"? I don't see anybody apologizing for Berman, only that they see beyond the flaws and still appreciates the show as a whole.

 

[Danny99]

^ Okay, that's not helping the situation!

All of you, keep it about the posts and not the posters and no I don't mean the kind you hang on walls...

My apologies, I just want the last word sometimes

 

[Anwar]

Look, for all this "Mutiny" talk let's do a real comparison shall we?

VOY: 2/3 of the crew are LOYAL Fleet personnel who are trained for deep-space exploration and being away from home for long-term periods. They also know from Fleet history that other ships have been tossed out further than them and have made it back. The "Other faction" are 1/3 of the ship (maybe less).

NuBSG: The military are the minority with there being 40000+ civilians to defend. So the divide between factions makes SENSE here. Also, they are refugees and NOT trained space explorers who have NO home to go back to. So tensions, mutinies and all-out despair are realistic in this situation.

SGU: Again, the factions are more equal in numbers, none of them are trained for their situation, they don't even know how the ship works except for the resident nutbag genius type no one can trust. Again, tensions make more sense.

Get it? VOY's situation was never that bad or antagonistic between the crews to begin with that there would be a mutiny or anything. Nor could the Maquis have maintained control of the ship even if they WANTED to take over.

 

[kimc]

^ Okay, that's not helping the situation!

All of you, keep it about the posts and not the posters and no I don't mean the kind you hang on walls...

My apologies, I just want the last word sometimes

No problem, I know how that feels.

 

[StarryEyed]

Look, for all this "Mutiny" talk let's do a real comparison shall we?

VOY: 2/3 of the crew are LOYAL Fleet personnel who are trained for deep-space exploration and being away from home for long-term periods. They also know from Fleet history that other ships have been tossed out further than them and have made it back. The "Other faction" are 1/3 of the ship (maybe less).

NuBSG: The military are the minority with there being 40000+ civilians to defend. So the divide between factions makes SENSE here. Also, they are refugees and NOT trained space explorers who have NO home to go back to. So tensions, mutinies and all-out despair are realistic in this situation.

SGU: Again, the factions are more equal in numbers, none of them are trained for their situation, they don't even know how the ship works except for the resident nutbag genius type no one can trust. Again, tensions make more sense.

Get it? VOY's situation was never that bad or antagonistic between the crews to begin with that there would be a mutiny or anything. Nor could the Maquis have maintained control of the ship even if they WANTED to take over.

I agree with you half-way.

I agree that Voyager's situation was not as tense as a lot of people make it out to be and we DID see a fair amount of conflict in the first two seasons. On the other hand, we had some Maquis (like Belanna) who had never even completed Star Fleet Academy being appointed over legitimate Starfleet personnel. That's should have caused more friction than it did.

 

[InklingStar]

I honestly think Voyager would have been more interesting if the Maquis faction was the dominant one, for example if the Starfleet captain was killed in the pilot instead of the first officer. We would have seen something new and groundbreaking for Star Trek: a crew not bound by Starfleet regulations yet still retaining their humanity and idealism that we can identify with and aspire too.

Instead it was basically TNG-lite.

 

[Anwar]

Look, for all this "Mutiny" talk let's do a real comparison shall we?

VOY: 2/3 of the crew are LOYAL Fleet personnel who are trained for deep-space exploration and being away from home for long-term periods. They also know from Fleet history that other ships have been tossed out further than them and have made it back. The "Other faction" are 1/3 of the ship (maybe less).

NuBSG: The military are the minority with there being 40000+ civilians to defend. So the divide between factions makes SENSE here. Also, they are refugees and NOT trained space explorers who have NO home to go back to. So tensions, mutinies and all-out despair are realistic in this situation.

SGU: Again, the factions are more equal in numbers, none of them are trained for their situation, they don't even know how the ship works except for the resident nutbag genius type no one can trust. Again, tensions make more sense.

Get it? VOY's situation was never that bad or antagonistic between the crews to begin with that there would be a mutiny or anything. Nor could the Maquis have maintained control of the ship even if they WANTED to take over.

I agree with you half-way.

I agree that Voyager's situation was not as tense as a lot of people make it out to be and we DID see a fair amount of conflict in the first two seasons. On the other hand, we had some Maquis (like Belanna) who had never even completed Star Fleet Academy being appointed over legitimate Starfleet personnel. That's should have caused more friction than it did.

I agree, it should have (for 1 season and a half AT MOST, IMO). But like I said, it wouldn't have made any sense for the crew to act the way the people in NuBSG did since their situations ARE very different.

 

[Roald]

Instead it was basically TNG-lite.

I agree that it was basically TNG in style and tone, for which I am very grateful. I think Berman wanted to stay very, very close to TNG, and I'm very happy with the fact he stayed true to that. And no, I'm not the "offical Berman apologist" ()....

But I DISagree with LITE (even though I do not necessarily find the word 'lite' to be negative in this case). Going back to some episodes (Tuvix, Equinox, Latent Image, etc.), I think VOY was at the very least touching more daring subjects than TNG ever did. I love TNG as much as I do VOY though.

 

[Agenda]

Generally speaking, can't someone be allowed to like Voyager & admire Berman without being labeled "an apologist"? I don't see anybody apologizing for Berman, only that they see beyond the flaws and still appreciates the show as a whole.

Can't people be allowed to criticize Berman without being labeled as "fans", as if they're not really? This entire thread isn't far removed from deliberate trolling. If a mod wants to warn me for calling it as it is, let them.

 

[Luther Sloan]

And let's not forget... that Data said..."For any event there is an infinite number of possible outcomes. Our choices determine which outcome will follow."

So although it is super unlikely these two crews got together all chummy and the ship was always in tip top shape... It is within the realm of possibility that Voyager's journey could have happened the way that it did.

Granted, Voyager would have been better if it did the more likely scenario(s). However, it still was an exceptionally entertaining show that was more about it's sense of family and goal to get home than it being a dark and serious space drama.

At least that's my 2 cents worth, anyways.


Source:

Oh, and please give your thanks to Mach 5 in the "What is Your View of Enterprise" thread for the Data quote.

Thank you.

 

[Roald]

This entire thread isn't far removed from deliberate trolling.

I've been a member for more than 10 years. Maybe not a very active member, but many, many years ago, I started several popular threads ('Is it right to kill a hologram?' 'Would you sleep with an alien?', etc.). I'm offended that you now accuse me of 'deliberate trolling'...

But I guess it's become the norm these days... When someone expresses their sincere (yes, sincere) admiration for a show like VOY, ENT or people like Berman, it's 'trolling' or being an apologist..... People become personal and attempt to be insulting ('you could ignore it, like you ignore grammar')....

Long live the anonimity of the internet I guess.

Oh, and as for my use of "fans" or "real fans"; I was trying to point out that I am glad Berman never listened to the people who have been agressively flaming VOY for years ('Fuck Voyager'); I am glad they never saw those attacks as a reflection of the entire fanbase. And in all fairness, I don't think that you can regard someone who states 'Fuck Voyager' as a fan and keep a straight face.

 

[Agenda]

This entire thread isn't far removed from deliberate trolling.

Oh, and as for my use of "fans" or "real fans"; I was trying to point out that I am glad Berman never listened to the people who have been agressively flaming VOY for years ('Fuck Voyager'); I am glad they never saw those attacks as a reflection of the entire fanbase. And in all fairness, I don't think that you can regard someone who states 'Fuck Voyager' as a fan and keep a straight face.

Bullshit. That's not who you're describing in your original post. You're describing a lot of people, even in these very forums, people with legitimate gripes about the show.

 

[Roald]

This entire thread isn't far removed from deliberate trolling.

Oh, and as for my use of "fans" or "real fans"; I was trying to point out that I am glad Berman never listened to the people who have been agressively flaming VOY for years ('Fuck Voyager'); I am glad they never saw those attacks as a reflection of the entire fanbase. And in all fairness, I don't think that you can regard someone who states 'Fuck Voyager' as a fan and keep a straight face.

Bullshit. That's not who you're describing in your original post. You're describing a lot of people, even in these very forums, people with legitimate gripes about the show.

"legitimate gripes" is subjective. I don't find them legitimate, even if it's being said a thousand times. Despite all the lengthy 'legitimate arguments' why Voyager is a supposed 'bad series', I still love it.

In any case, my original post was never aimed at anyone specifically. But the fact is you can't say in here that Berman is a good producer, that 'TATV' is a good episode, or that VOY and/or ENT were good series without being called an "apologist" or a troll. On the other hand, it's perfectly accepted to bitch about all of that.

 

[Anwar]

And Berman didn't want a "TNG Lite" either, a lot of what people DON'T like about VOY was forced on them by the network.

 

[exodus]

Generally speaking, can't someone be allowed to like Voyager & admire Berman without being labeled "an apologist"? I don't see anybody apologizing for Berman, only that they see beyond the flaws and still appreciates the show as a whole.

Can't people be allowed to criticize Berman without being labeled as "fans", as if they're not really? This entire thread isn't far removed from deliberate trolling. If a mod wants to warn me for calling it as it is, let them.

Usually non-fans don't post on message boards dedicated to the shows.

 

[TheGodBen]

Usually non-fans don't post on message boards dedicated to the shows.

Voyager is part of a franchise which is loved by millions of fans worldwide, and many people that love other parts of the franchise don't like Voyager, so they say so. It's no different from Star Wars fans bitching about the prequel trilogy, or some LOTR fans complaining that the movies are crap compared to the books, or The Godfather fans complaining that Part 3 was crap, or Mercenaries fans complaining that the second game was a buggy mess, and on and on and on and on...

(refuses to break out into a horrifying rendition of Don't Stop Believin')

My problem is that they set Voyager up with a complicated premise (the entire political situation with the Cardassians on DS9 and TNG was manipulated so that the Maquis could exist for Voyager) and then they mostly abandoned it. It may have been UPN's fault that it was dropped so quickly, but knowing that doesn't make the problem (as I see it) go away. Call me a "fan" if you wish, it doesn't change the fact that I actually am a fan of Star Trek.

 

[exodus]

Usually non-fans don't post on message boards dedicated to the shows.

Voyager is part of a franchise which is loved by millions of fans worldwide, and many people that love other parts of the franchise don't like Voyager, so they say so. It's no different from Star Wars fans bitching about the prequel trilogy, or some LOTR fans complaining that the movies are crap compared to the books, or The Godfather fans complaining that Part 3 was crap, or Mercenaries fans complaining that the second game was a buggy mess, and on and on and on and on...

(refuses to break out into a horrifying rendition of Don't Stop Believin')

My problem is that they set Voyager up with a complicated premise (the entire political situation with the Cardassians on DS9 and TNG was manipulated so that the Maquis could exist for Voyager) and then they mostly abandoned it. It may have been UPN's fault that it was dropped so quickly, but knowing that doesn't make the problem (as I see it) go away. Call me a "fan" if you wish, it doesn't change the fact that I actually am a fan of Star Trek.

IMO I think Voyager's Starfleet/Maquis was Boba Fett all over again. I think many heard the crews was going to be Starfleet/Maquis and over hyped the idea themselves that there was going to be much more conflict than what we got. Right from "Caretaker" when both crews became one under Starfleet, so from the start that was a sign inner conflict was going to be minimal. I don't think inner conflict was ever going to be what the fans wanted it too be. IMO Voyager was simply supposed to carry on Trek's openning monolog theme:"Seek out strange new worlds and civilations. Too boldly go where no man has gone before." I think it was meant to be about exploring new parts of space rather than what issues the crew had that week.