So Data's dead and Trip gets a second chance at ponfar?

[Christopher]

^B-4 was the equivalent of a person with a severe learning disability. If you had a child with a severe learning disability, would you say it was all right for your child's brain to be gouged out and someone else's brain implanted in his body? Just because someone doesn't function on the same level as an adult human doesn't mean they don't qualify as a person.

 

[Garm Bel Iblis]

^B-4 was the equivalent of a person with a severe learning disability. If you had a child with a severe learning disability, would you say it was all right for your child's brain to be gouged out and someone else's brain implanted in his body? Just because someone doesn't function on the same level as an adult human doesn't mean they don't qualify as a person.

better than boxing him up, taking him apart and sending him off for study...

 

[JD]

Well, at least when they put him back together he'll still be the same person. Not only that, but we've seen Data get body parts taken off with no harm whatsoever.

 

[DarKush]

I thought the idea of bringing Trip back was a pretty gutsy response to the horrid TATV. I really liked The Good that Men Do. But as I read through Kobayashi Maru and have struggled through the Romulan War (I've set it to the side and will pick it up at a later time), I see how convoluted the affair has become. Especially when the writers insist of making Trip such a large part of the goings-on.

I don't dislike Trip. I think he was one of the few characters on ENT that the writers seemed interested enough in to focus on so he was the best developed character on the show, probably with T'Pol coming in second. Trip probably was also the most consistently written character on the show as well so I can see why he would have a lot of fans and might be the most popular thing on ENT. Also the trepidation of moving forward with the ENT relaunch without him might be daunting for TPTB.

Now, I'm starting to wonder if maybe they shouldn't have bought him back, or perhaps merely changed how he really died, and tied that to the Romulans. And the pirate thing was just the 'official' story.

About Data...I agree with Christopher's sentiment. It just felt wrong to have Data's matrix overwrite B-4's programming in the Countdown book and STO. It didn't seem like something Data would do, extinguish one life, the life of his 'brother' for his own. I would have rather them had Geordi, perhaps with the CoE, make a new android body and extract the Data matrix from B-4 and put it in the new body. That leaves B-4 intact and restores Data.

 

[RandyS]

^B-4 was the equivalent of a person with a severe learning disability. If you had a child with a severe learning disability, would you say it was all right for your child's brain to be gouged out and someone else's brain implanted in his body? Just because someone doesn't function on the same level as an adult human doesn't mean they don't qualify as a person.

Ironic that you should ask me that, because I have cerebral palsy with a several math learning disability. Of course, I can't expect you to have known that.

But that doesn't change what I saw in Nemesis, which is that B-4 appeared to be a blank slate. Actually, I first thought that B-4 was created by Shinzon, not Soong, as a plant to lure Data to the planet.

 

[Agenda]

There's an alternate explanation. Maybe B-4 is still in there, along with Data.

Data could take over the body and maybe build a new one for either him or B-4.

 

[Guardian Bob]

Honestly, cry me a river. Trip was a great character, and I don't see why Data deserves to live over him. They are both one of the most popular characters, they both died saving their captain, and they gladly sacrificed themselves (well, in Trip's case it was faked).

I would rather see B4 become sentient on his own. Whats better than a brother giving you a chance to live and grow? Its what Data always wanted, to procreate and have the brother Lore wasn't.

I don't get why Star Trek fans hate characters dying, especially when its heroic. What better way do die? Would you rather Kirk or Janeway die of old age or a broken hip, or in a way that saves a lot of people? They are Captains, for their character to be fulfilled and immortalized, they have to die eventually. There have been some shit deaths in Star Trek. Tasha Yar, Jadzia, and Trip too (on screen), but at least Data died for a good and brave reason.

Data died for a reason, and his life ended to B4s might begin. And in my opinion, Janeway's character came full-circle when she got them back to the Alpha quadrant. That was her struggle for 7 years. I think it would have been better if she died in the series finale, sacrificing herself in some way to bring her crew home; but thats just me.

And Ps, when character die, I like em to stay that way. I know its science fiction, but come on! Its like watching Heroes.

 

[STR]

There's an alternate explanation. Maybe B-4 is still in there, along with Data.

Data could take over the body and maybe build a new one for either him or B-4.

That's 1-dimensional thinking there. Data, and B-4 too, are made up of thousands of interconnected programs run on adaptive hardware. It's more likely to meld Data's more advanced thoughts, with elements better suited for B4's underdeveloped hardware, resulting in a being that's a mixture of the two. This has been my interesting little fantasy. This new being acts a lot like Data, but a little less superhuman (slower hardware), but is not Data. He doesn't not act and think exactly the same. He is the synthesis of the two parts of the programming.

It's certainly interesting in a philosophical/existential way.

 

[Agenda]

There's an alternate explanation. Maybe B-4 is still in there, along with Data.

Data could take over the body and maybe build a new one for either him or B-4.

That's 1-dimensional thinking there.

Are you trying to be insulting? Anyways, there is some precedence. Look at the Schizoid Man where a human even managed to put himself into Data's body and take control of it with his distinct personality while Data was still alive inside. So if this guy could do it, and he wasn't even a Soong android, why couldn't Data himself?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Look at the Schizoid Man where a human even managed to put himself into Data's body and take control of it with his distinct personality while Data was still alive inside. So if this guy could do it, and he wasn't even a Soong android, why couldn't Data himself?

The treklit explanation is that B4's hardware was too simple for Data's software.
However, recently, in the last 'Titan' novel, an AI crewmwmber joined the cast - and he has the abiltiy to 'help' machines cross the gap between intelligence and sentience.

In any case, if Data is to be brought back, it shouldn't be in this fashion (take over B4) - it's unimaginative, cheap, a resurrection for resurrection's sake.
Data coming back to life should be a natural consequence of the story, not the story bring a vehicle for bringing Data back.

 

[JonoKyle]

About Data...I agree with Christopher's sentiment. It just felt wrong to have Data's matrix overwrite B-4's programming in the Countdown book and STO. It didn't seem like something Data would do, extinguish one life, the life of his 'brother' for his own. I would have rather them had Geordi, perhaps with the CoE, make a new android body and extract the Data matrix from B-4 and put it in the new body. That leaves B-4 intact and restores Data.

I agree it doesn’t sound like something Data would ever condone. Also as he was declared a sentient being (I think it was in Articles of the Federation) - wouldn't this be the equivalent of murder as they would be technically eliminating who B-4 is?

Also I thought it had been mentioned somewhere that because B-4 was a prototype he was less advanced and therefore incapable of becoming like Data was – so it never made much sense to me for Data’s ‘return’ to be by overwriting B-4 programming.

Overwriting Lore actually made more sense to me as he was technically equivalent to Data (except the emotional instability issue) and I thought he had only been deactivated and his body dismantled not actually destroyed, so it would be possible to restore him. Also since he had already been sentenced to ‘death’ by dismantling him, it wouldn’t cause as many legal issues as overwriting B-4.

IMO I would like to see Data’s eventual return as I have always seen Data as Riker’s successor as First Officer on the Enterprise (and eventual Captain). As much as I love Worf and his return to Starfleet, I would prefer him having his own command of a Prometheus-class (or similar) vessel then being Picard’s First Officer .

 

[Christopher]

But that doesn't change what I saw in Nemesis, which is that B-4 appeared to be a blank slate.

I don't see why you'd think that. If he were a blank slate, he would've just been inert and passive. Instead, he was childlike, inquisitive. He may not have had much ability to retain new information, but he had curiosity, the instinct to seek answers. And he clearly had the initiative and will to formulate and pose questions rather than simply responding to prompts. So clearly B-4 had some degree of sentience and personality, even if they were at a very childlike level.

Anyways, there is some precedence. Look at the Schizoid Man where a human even managed to put himself into Data's body and take control of it with his distinct personality while Data was still alive inside. So if this guy could do it, and he wasn't even a Soong android, why couldn't Data himself?

The difference is that Data's brain has greater processing power and storage space than a human mind, whereas B-4's processing power is much less than Data's. If Graves putting himself into Data's mind is like pouring a pint of water into a gallon container, then Data putting himself into B-4's mind would be like pouring a gallon of water into a teacup. The capacity to hold it just isn't there.

I agree it doesn’t sound like something Data would ever condone. Also as he was declared a sentient being (I think it was in Articles of the Federation) - wouldn't this be the equivalent of murder as they would be technically eliminating who B-4 is?

Good point. The Council's ruling in AotF didn't explicitly go so far as to declare B-4 sentient, I think, but it did rule that he had the right to self-determination and the right to exist.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Say you take someone with a mental handicap, who's had it their whole life, and perform some magical operation that suddenly gives them a proper intellect. Is it the same person afterward? Didn't Julian Bashir say that "Jules" died when he was augmented? If so are you helping that person or killing him in favour of a new person?

Say the Federation scientists perform a simple operation (remember the Federation can create sentient holograms on a whim now) on B-4 to give him Data's mental abilities. Upon 'awakening' he's a totally new man. His prior memories are vague, blurry and hazy compared to the sensations he's absorbing now. Then, looking though his memories he finds a shedload of crystal clear life experiences - those of Data (who downloaded his memories into B-4 in Nemesis). This 'blank slate' B-4 suddenly assimilates all this useful data, and essentially becomes Data. The "becoming Data" thing wouldn't necessarily have been the Federation's plan at all.

 

[Agenda]

Whatever happened, here's how the comics explained it...

After an extensive study at the Soong Foundation by a dedicated science team and Geordi La Forge, the group manage to unravel the Data matrix allowing for all of Data's memories, personality and experiences to override B-4. Through this, the android was able to help the Soong Foundation in upgrading the positronic brain and help in the recreation of the emotion chip originally developed by Doctor Soong. Ambassador Spock likened it to his resurrection a hundred and two years previously, though Data likened it more to a return. (ST comic: "Countdown, Number Two"; ST website: The Path to 2409)

By 2387, Data was active in Starfleet and had risen to the rank of Captain. Data assumed command of the Enterprise-E after the retirement of Captain Picard from Starfleet. (ST comics: "Countdown, Number One", "Countdown, Number Two")

In 2390, Jake Sisko came aboard the Enterprise for an interview with Data. Data gave his thoughts regarding future Borg attacks and whether Species 8472 had reached Federation space; the captain refused to discuss the events of his "recovery." It should be noted that in the transcript of the interview, Data uses a verbal contraction, whatever it may mean. (ST website: The Path to 2409)

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Data

 

[F. King Daniel]

99% of that's not from the comics. That's Star Trek Online's "Path to..." timeline updates. They include Countdown in their timeline, but it was created seperately from the comic by a different company. Countdown itself gives very little info on Data's ressurection. Should the novels tie-up to Countdown (but ignore STO which degenerates Trek into a war orgy) they could happily come up with a totally different version of Data's return.


Also, the "Path to..." stuff makes it sound like the calculated murder/overwrite of B-4 with Data's memories. In the version I postulated, Data's return is the result of Data and LaForge's actions in Nemesis, and the Federation scientists were only trying to help B-4 fulfill his potential. Had Data not downloaded his memories B-4 would have grown into a different person, shaped by his own experiences rather than Data's.

 

[Christopher]

Say you take someone with a mental handicap, who's had it their whole life, and perform some magical operation that suddenly gives them a proper intellect. Is it the same person afterward? Didn't Julian Bashir say that "Jules" died when he was augmented? If so are you helping that person or killing him in favour of a new person?

That would be a valid question if applied to a procedure that gave B-4 new ability to develop into his own independent entity. But we're talking about wiping his own mind and using his body as a receptacle for Data's consciousness. That's more like what Henoch had in mind for Spock's body in "Return to Tomorrow." Or what the Borg do to those they assimilate. Or what the Goa'uld parasites in Stargate do to their hosts. Or what the Master in Doctor Who did to Tremas of Traken (or to Eric Roberts' paramedic character in the US movie). Or what Illyria did to Fred on Angel. In short, it's pretty universally portrayed as an evil act.

 

[F. King Daniel]

My post mentioned no overwrite or deletion. Only that Data's memories would have been more prominent and relevant to B-4's enhanced conciousness. B-4's (probably comparitively vague and hazy) memories would live on in Data, similar to how Data downloaded Lal's memories into himself.

 

[Christopher]

^But your post seemed to be a response to my post which disputed RandyS's characterization of B-4 as a "blank slate" who could thus be overwritten without ethical qualms. So I assumed you were addressing the same premise.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^But your post seemed to be a response to my post which disputed RandyS's characterization of B-4 as a "blank slate" who could thus be overwritten without ethical qualms. So I assumed you were addressing the same premise.

Sorry if I was unclear. By "blank slate", I wasn't using the term the way you did. I didn't mean that B-4 was blank, but was referring to the untapped, freshly awakened intellect that this (hypothetical) procedure would create in him. I should have used a different term.

 

[STR]

There's an alternate explanation. Maybe B-4 is still in there, along with Data.

Data could take over the body and maybe build a new one for either him or B-4.

That's 1-dimensional thinking there.

Are you trying to be insulting?

Sorry if you took offense, that was not my intent. I was being literal, not figurative. Your argument essentially is that the being is either Data or B4. That it's a zero-sum game where one part must be suppressed or eliminated for the other to gain. That makes it a 1 dimensional sliding scale.

My argument is 2-dimensional, where you have Data, and B4 and any combination of the two, plus combination of Data and B4, like an XY coordinate graph. I hope that allays any unintended offense and makes my argument clearer.

Also, I second the opinion that STO has horrible writing. I gave up on having a Mass Effect-esc experience when they made Tom Paris' and Belana Torres' kid a Klingon Messiah. *shudders* At least the Khitomer Accord mission was interesting.