So, after 6x09 what don't we know?

[label]

Spoilers up through "Ab Aeterno".

So, we learned a lot in 6.09 "Ab Aeterno"

We "appear" to know the following:

(BTW: I call the Man in Black "esau" though I don't necessarily think the story is a biblical reference)

• We know what the point of the island is = A "cork" to keep evil from the world
• We know why people are brought to the island and who's responsible = Jacob brings them to prove to Esau/MIB that man can be good and deserves to survive
• We know how Richard came to the island and why he doesn't age
• We know what purpose Richard serves now.
• We know (pretty much) who's "good" and who's "bad".
• We know what the stakes of this are(Esau can't leave the island or evil will be unleashed)
• We know that the candidates really are there to replace Jacob and protect the island/world.
• We know how these seemingly random people are connected (Jacob)
• We know where the story is headed => someone's got to take over for Jacob, someone has to stop Esau from leaving and neither will be easy.
• We know what Illana is doing on the island and why
  

Basically, we got most of the big picture last night. We got almost all the answers about Richard we could hope to get and a lot more about the island and it's inhabitants.This thread, however, is to discuss what we do not know yet.

The major things I can think of are:

• How did the island come into being and why
• What is the true nature of Jacob and Esau and how do they have the power they each have
• What did the nuke actually accomplish or did it even really go off?
• What would actually happen if Esau escapes and the island becomes "uncorked".
  

Anyone else think of what we don't know or what was answered last night?

 

[gh4chiefs]

Well just off the top of my head, things that we still don't really know:

Exactly what's the deal with Christian. Smokey took Locke's form but he didn't inhabit Locke's body, but yet Christian was up walking around while his body was missing from his coffin. What's the difference there?

Likewise with Sayid. What EXACTLY is going on with him?

We don't know for sure that Claire was dead, we know she's batshit crazy and is following Smokey but there's still uncertainity about exactly what's going on with her.

The whole cabin thing (spreadout over several episodes). It's still unclear to me what that was all about.

Walt showing up in the jungle to Shannon and Sayid, soaking wet and talking backwards. WTF was THAT? Smokey again? But why wet and why talking backwards?

What is it about Hurley that he sees (and talks to) dead people?

Thought of some more. What's happened to Bernard and Rose? (Not a big one but something we don't know.)

Just exactly what is Ben and Widmore's relationship and what are the "rules" Ben talks about and who made those rules.

Speaking of rules, what about the (apparently young Jacob) boy who appears to NotLocke and talks about rules. Again what rules and who sets them?

What's the source of the Others seemingly vast off Island resources?

How did the Others come into being?

These are just a few, I'm sure if I had time the list could become enormous.

 

[coolghoul]

Good summary by both of you.

However, I think label was focusing on this episode and the MIB/Jacob piece rather than all the other losties mysteries.

I am curious about the following.

MIB - is he "misguided"? Or Evil?
Is he the evil that will be unleashed or by popping the cork in trying to escape, he will unleash the true evil? I am still curious why MIB let's Ricardo know some truths. Why does he tell Ricardo that he's the black smoke for instance? Wouldn't it be better to tell him that was Jacob?
Who was Isabella that came to Ricardo in the boat? Was it MIB assuming a form? Or was it something else?
Why is MIB locked into Locke's form now?
Who's MIB's mother? Is she Jacob's mother too? Are they brothers?

And we still have no clue as to how the final showdown is going to work.

I couldn't believe it that Jack still didn't know that SmokeyLocke wasn't Locke. These characters really don't talk to each other.

I liked the duality of MIB asking Ricardo in roughly the same words that Dogen asks of Sayid. But what is it's significance?

 

[label]

Exactly what's the deal with Christian. Smokey took Locke's form but he didn't inhabit Locke's body, but yet Christian was up walking around while his body was missing from his coffin. What's the difference there?

This seems pretty clear, at least to me. My opinion is that Christian has always been the MIB taking on the form of a dead person to manipulate people. Specifically Locke given how Christian told Locke to leave the island and told him he would need to die. If you look back at what Christian has said and done, it seems clear he was always manipulating people to either join his side (claire) or do what he needed them to do (locke).

Likewise with Sayid. What EXACTLY is going on with him?

He's been infected like Roussau's crew was. He's been "claimed" by the MIB. I'm not sure we'll get a more specific answer than that but basically we know that the MIB can claim/impersonate the dead.

We don't know for sure that Claire was dead, we know she's batshit crazy and is following Smokey but there's still uncertainity about exactly what's going on with her.

Not in my mind. She died like Sayid did. She was claimed like Sayid was. Dogen said as much early in the season.

The whole cabin thing (spreadout over several episodes). It's still unclear to me what that was all about.

Early in this season Bram used the dust to keep Smokey at bay. Either Jacob was using the cabin as his home and the dust kept smokey out (which is my guess) or Jacob had trapped smokey in the cabin. Either way, I don't think the cabin plays a pivotal role in the end game. (course, I could always be wrong)

Walt showing up in the jungle to Shannon and Sayid, soaking wet and talking backwards. WTF was THAT? Smokey again? But why wet and why talking backwards?

Dunno. Not sure if we get answers about Walt beyond that he was special and somehow connected to the Island's power.

What is it about Hurley that he sees (and talks to) dead people?

Clearly there's a connection to the Island and Dead people. Miles and Hurley get glimpses into people who have died. Why them and not others may be answered but might not be. I mean, they are clearly special, but does it really matter why they were special and not others? Perhaps, but I don't think I need to know why Hurley is special for the show to end.

What's happened to Bernard and Rose? (Not a big one but something we don't know.)

They lived their lives out on the island happy and content.

Just exactly what is Ben and Widmore's relationship and what are the "rules" Ben talks about and who made those rules.

Speaking of rules, what about the (apparently young Jacob) boy who appears to NotLocke and talks about rules. Again what rules and who sets them?

Those are two of the remaining questions we have to answer. That and what are the rules Jacob and the MIB have to play by and who made those rules.

What's the source of the Others seemingly vast off Island resources?

People who believe in their cause.

How did the Others come into being?

Jacob/Richard recruited them over time to protect the island against smokey's influence.

 

[gh4chiefs]

No offense Label, but we don't KNOW those anwers you're giving. That's pure speculation on your part. For example:

Jacob/Richard recruited them over time to protect the island against smokey's influence

We don't know that. Might be a good guess, but it's pure speculation.

And I don't think you understand my question about Christian. When Smokey became Locke, he simply took Locke's form while Locke's body remained behind. When Christian was up and running around, his actual body went missing out of his coffin. So there is some difference between Christian and Locke and that's not been explained.

And despite your comments about Claire, unlike Sayid who we KNOW was dead, we don't know that she died for sure.

 

[LitmusDragon]

What is Widmore's goal? He wants to kill Ben. He wants to kill Flocke. He wants to kill everyone on the island. Whats the point? What is he hoping to achieve? I suppose this will be tied in with "What is the Island", aside from a "cork".

PS- the clue the producers dropped recently, "a four letter word containing O, The island is a ----". The answer must be "CORK", in reference to this episode. Which is kind of a non-answer.

I'm not really clear on the Other's society or how it ties in with what we know. I guess maybe they have figureheads like Ben because Richard is too nice a guy to be the actual leader of the group. But why are they so hostile to people arriving at the island?

 

[gh4chiefs]

I'm not really clear on the Other's society or how it ties in with what we know. I guess maybe they have figureheads like Ben because Richard is too nice a guy to be the actual leader of the group. But why are they so hostile to people arriving at the island?

Good observation. Just how does all the behaviour Ben and his Others exhibited tie into this battle of Jacob vs MIB. It just seems so disconnected now.

 

[Jenee]

No offense Label, but we don't KNOW those anwers you're giving. That's pure speculation on your part. For example:

Jacob/Richard recruited them over time to protect the island against smokey's influence

We don't know that. Might be a good guess, but it's pure speculation.

And I don't think you understand my question about Christian. When Smokey became Locke, he simply took Locke's form while Locke's body remained behind. When Christian was up and running around, his actual body went missing out of his coffin. So there is some difference between Christian and Locke and that's not been explained.

And despite your comments about Claire, unlike Sayid who we KNOW was dead, we don't know that she died for sure.

Right. I'm not convinced Christian is MIB - in fact, Claire states specifically that they are two separate entities.

We don't know that the kid is "young Jacob" - even unlikely as "dead is dead" and Jacob is dead. If other dead people come back to haunt whoever, and Jacob has showed himself in his present form to Hurley, why come back as a kid to MIB? Doesn't even begin to make sense - not that anything does on this show anyway, but still ... no, the kid isn't "young Jacob".

 

[label]

No offense Label, but we don't KNOW those anwers you're giving. That's pure speculation on your part.

Well sure, that's a given. I haven't been spoiled and this is Lost so the answers that make sense now may change depending on what happens over the last episodes.

That being said, given the 5 and 1/2 seasons of story to consider, I think most of my answers are pretty logical conclusions based on what we know to this point. Still, I am not claiming to "know" the answers.

Jacob/Richard recruited them over time to protect the island against smokey's influence

We don't know that. Might be a good guess, but it's pure speculation.

Well in this case we actually have confirmation from Illana and Jacob himself that Jacob brings these people to the island both as candidates (as protector of the island) and to prove smokey wrong. I'm not sure what part of that answer is speculation since it's straight from the characters mouths.

And I don't think you understand my question about Christian. When Smokey became Locke, he simply took Locke's form while Locke's body remained behind. When Christian was up and running around, his actual body went missing out of his coffin. So there is some difference between Christian and Locke and that's not been explained.

Well, I believe that if Christian was not smokey, then Christian was another one of those dead people that smokey claimed as he did with Sayid and I believe Claire.

And despite your comments about Claire, unlike Sayid who we KNOW was dead, we don't know that she died for sure.

Well, it hasn't been explicitly stated, but there is very strong evidence to support that Claire died.

1. No one should have been able to survive an explosion like that
2. Miles acted very strange around claire after the explosion and when Claire said something about being in safe now he specifically said "don't be so sure".
3. We know Christian died and Claire said "I'm with him now".
4. We know Sayid died and Dogen said the same thing that happened to Claire happened to Sayid

I mean, no one on screen has said "Claire died and smokey claimed here", but it seems pretty clear her.

Again, I might be wrong and this is Lost so I might be wildly wrong, but given the story up to this point, I think things are becoming pretty clear.

 

[label]

What is Widmore's goal? He wants to kill Ben. He wants to kill Flocke. He wants to kill everyone on the island. Whats the point? What is he hoping to achieve? I suppose this will be tied in with "What is the Island", aside from a "cork".

Widemore's true goals are definitely one of the few remaining major mysteries.

I'm not really clear on the Other's society or how it ties in with what we know. I guess maybe they have figureheads like Ben because Richard is too nice a guy to be the actual leader of the group. But why are they so hostile to people arriving at the island?

My thinking now is that people arriving on the island are more opportunities for smokey to recruit someone who can help him escape and bring about the "very bad event" that will occur if he gets to leave the island.

 

[Mr Light]

• How did the island come into being and why >>> My assumption is that "God" (the little boy who appeared to Cerebus and told him he was breaking the rules) created the Island as a prison for him.
• What is the true nature of Jacob and Esau and how do they have the power they each have >>> My guess: Cerebus is the embodiment of Biblical evil, the devil and demons and all the supernatural. "God", at the end of Biblical times, collected all supernautral evil and removed it from the world of mortal man and put it here on this prison. Jacob is an angel assigned to be the guardian.
• What did the nuke actually accomplish or did it even really go off? >>> This one I dunno. I assumed the nuke caused the split timelines but there may be contradictions to that theory but things changed before that (Ben and daddy leaving the Island before 1977).
• What would actually happen if Esau escapes and the island becomes "uncorked". >>> A return to the Biblical times of devils and demons in the world of man.

 

[gh4chiefs]

Again, I might be wrong and this is Lost so I might be wildly wrong, but given the story up to this point, I think things are becoming pretty clear.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Because it ain't clear to me at all.

 

[LitmusDragon]

I'm suspicious that the nuke might be a bit of misdirection. If you look way back at the end of S2, we have a similar explosion with no real consequences (well, it caused the crash, no new consequences I guess I should say). We have been led to believe that the flash sideways are the consequence of the nuke, but this hasn't been explicitly shown, and in fact there are hints that the timeline diverged much earlier than that. Ben's father left the island before the nuke, he would have had to, otherwise he'd be dead.

All of this of course is negated by Juliet's "it worked" speech which implies the opposite. I'm still suspicious however.

I'm also not clear why there isn't any "whoosh" noise when they cut to the flash-sideways. I guess the "whoosh" is only for memories? Did they use the "whoosh" when they cut to the future in season 3/4?

Remember when we talked about what the "whoosh" meant? I wonder if that will ever be explained.

 

[label]

Right. I'm not convinced Christian is MIB - in fact, Claire states specifically that they are two separate entities.

I could agree with that. If Christian is not the MIB, than I would say that it's very likely that the MIB recruited him as he did Sayid and Claire to manipulate people into helping him escape.

We don't know that the kid is "young Jacob" - even unlikely as "dead is dead" and Jacob is dead.

Agreed. This is one of the new, but major mysteries of this season left to answer.

 

[label]

• How did the island come into being and why >>> My assumption is that "God" (the little boy who appeared to Cerebus and told him he was breaking the rules) created the Island as a prison for him.
• What is the true nature of Jacob and Esau and how do they have the power they each have >>> My guess: Cerebus is the embodiment of Biblical evil, the devil and demons and all the supernatural. "God", at the end of Biblical times, collected all supernautral evil and removed it from the world of mortal man and put it here on this prison. Jacob is an angel assigned to be the guardian.
• What did the nuke actually accomplish or did it even really go off? >>> This one I dunno. I assumed the nuke caused the split timelines but there may be contradictions to that theory but things changed before that (Ben and daddy leaving the Island before 1977).
• What would actually happen if Esau escapes and the island becomes "uncorked". >>> A return to the Biblical times of devils and demons in the world of man.

Agreed on all points. These are definitely the major endgame mysteries that will probably be resolved in the series finale. But I think these represent the "final" major mysteries that will definitely have to be resolved.

 

[label]

Again, I might be wrong and this is Lost so I might be wildly wrong, but given the story up to this point, I think things are becoming pretty clear.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Because it ain't clear to me at all.

Fair enough. Like I said, I could be wrong.

While I'm not sure which aspects are unclear to you, I respect that this show is complex enough where people can certainly interpret things differently than others do.

 

[label]

MIB - is he "misguided"? Or Evil?

I think evil. I think to be as manipulative as he is and to murder so callously as he does, he must be evil.

Why does he tell Ricardo that he's the black smoke for instance?

He doesn't seem to lie almost ever. Very interesting. Or maybe he lies with the truth. Hard to tell. His true nature is certainly one of the last big mysteries.

Who was Isabella that came to Ricardo in the boat? Was it MIB assuming a form? Or was it something else?

The MIB assuming her form to manipulate Richard into killing Jacob so he could be reunited with her.

Why is MIB locked into Locke's form now?

One would assume that because Jacob's dead.

Who's MIB's mother? Is she Jacob's mother too? Are they brothers?

Yep, one of the final answers.

And we still have no clue as to how the final showdown is going to work.

My guess is that it'll be the struggle to keep the MIB on the island, and have one of the candidates choose to take over as the new Jacob.

 

[Jenee]

MIB - is he "misguided"? Or Evil?

I think evil. I think to be as manipulative as he is and to murder so callously as he does, he must be evil.

Do you ever step on ants? spray pesticides at mosquitos or bees?

 

[label]

MIB - is he "misguided"? Or Evil?

I think evil. I think to be as manipulative as he is and to murder so callously as he does, he must be evil.

Do you ever step on ants? spray pesticides at mosquitos or bees?

I don't buy that the MIB views us as ants in this struggle because by his own admission he used to be just a man like everyone else so the basic moral imperative found in all philosophies/religions would apply to him which is "do unto others as you would have done unto you".

In other words, don't do something to someone else you don't want someone else doing to you. He violates the crap out of that principal regularly and because he is (apparently) callous about being in violation to that principal, he would have to be classified as "evil" or "bad".

 

[Jenee]

I don't recall him saying he used to be a man like everyone else. He said he had a mother, but then ... so do ants.

Even if he were once a man, we don't know what his role is now, nor why he kills some people (people who killed men in chains, men who had no chance of defending themselves, just so they wouldn't have to share their few supplies) yet leaves others alive (people like Eko and Sayid who murdered people in cold blood to gain or retain power).