Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not.

[Aldo]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

I think it has a lot to do with Moffat being the showrunner now over Davies. With RTD it felt like a show that was going out of it's way to say "Hey look at me, this is the same Doctor Who you remember!" With Moffat at the helms I no longer feel the show is going out of it's way to say it's Doctor Who, it just is.

Having only read the first page of the thread I've no clue if anyone else has pointed this out but... Moffat's Who does indeed go out of it's way to remind us that it's Doctor Who starting with very first episode when he's telling the Atraxi who he is and we see all the past Doctor's faces. Then there's the First Doctor on the library card and The Fourth Doctor's voice clip offering a jelly baby. Just saying.

Fair point, but that was in Smith's debut episode. Can't blame them for going out of their way to try and sell the new guy. They do the same thing with each new James Bond actor.

 

[Winterwind]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

When I started watching back in 2005 it seemed like a continuation of the old series. I never question it but I am curious why others felt it might not have been a continuation.

I've never quite understood that view either.

I think it has a lot to do with Moffat being the showrunner now over Davies. With RTD it felt like a show that was going out of it's way to say "Hey look at me, this is the same Doctor Who you remember!" With Moffat at the helms I no longer feel the show is going out of it's way to say it's Doctor Who, it just is.

Having only read the first page of the thread I've no clue if anyone else has pointed this out but... Moffat's Who does indeed go out of it's way to remind us that it's Doctor Who starting with very first episode when he's telling the Atraxi who he is and we see all the past Doctor's faces. Then there's the First Doctor on the library card and The Fourth Doctor's voice clip offering a jelly baby. Just saying.

Fair point, but that was in Smith's debut episode. Can't blame them for going out of their way to try and sell the new guy. They do the same thing with each new James Bond actor.

Well, only the first of the three examples I gave were in Smith's first episode. But I do agree that Smith is closer to the classic Doctors than either Eccleston or Tennant.

 

[Trevacious]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

The transition to Eleven was a struggle for me, as he seemed to be written/portrayed as a moron in many of his early episodes, as if all of his brain didn't make it through regeneration.

Well, he is getting up there in years. It's bound to make him more eccentric, even senile. Remember how Ten used to smack himself in the head to rattle out a thought sometimes? "Thick! Thick! Thick!" Too much info and not enough processing power in there.

 

[Trubinator]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

I liked David Tennant, too. But I think Smith is definitely my all-time favorite Doctor. Totally agree with the OP here.

 

[Sci]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Having only read the first page of the thread I've no clue if anyone else has pointed this out but... Moffat's Who does indeed go out of it's way to remind us that it's Doctor Who starting with very first episode when he's telling the Atraxi who he is and we see all the past Doctor's faces. Then there's the First Doctor on the library card and The Fourth Doctor's voice clip offering a jelly baby. Just saying.

Same. In fact, it wasn't until "School Reunion" that I was persuaded that nuWho must have taken place in the same continuity as DW TOS.

I can't recall off hand but were there visual references to the past Doctors prior to the sketches in the Journal of Impossible Things in S3's "Human Nature/The Family of Blood"

There were not. The first time there were any visual references to prior Doctor incarnations was in "Human Nature." "Utopia" featured the first sound clips from DW TOS. "Time Crash" was the first to feature a DW TOS Doctor incarnation in its cast. "The Next Doctor" was the first to feature actual footage from DW TOS.

When I started watching back in 2005 it seemed like a continuation of the old series. I never question it but I am curious why others felt it might not have been a continuation.

Mostly because there was no particular reason to think that it was set in the same continuity as DW TOS. To me, starting off nuWho, assuming that DW TOS and nuWho must take place in the same continuity without confirmation in-universe seemed like the equivalent of assuming that the 1960s Batman must take place in the same continuity as the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series.

 

[DWF]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Mostly because there was no particular reason to think that it was set in the same continuity as DW TOS. To me, starting off nuWho, assuming that DW TOS and nuWho must take place in the same continuity without confirmation in-universe seemed like the equivalent of assuming that the 1960s Batman must take place in the same continuity as the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series.

The Autons and the Nestine was something of a dead give away along with all the other elements of the old series. And you're comparing apples and oranges with the Batman series since one was a live action show and other a cartoon with different theme music and different stroy structures.

 

[Whofan]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

In addition, RTD's Time War Essay-published in 2005-makes several references to classic Dalek serials.

 

[Sci]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Mostly because there was no particular reason to think that it was set in the same continuity as DW TOS. To me, starting off nuWho, assuming that DW TOS and nuWho must take place in the same continuity without confirmation in-universe seemed like the equivalent of assuming that the 1960s Batman must take place in the same continuity as the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series.

The Autons and the Nestine was something of a dead give away along with all the other elements of the old series.

That there were Autons and Nestene and the TARDIS and the Doctor no more required nuWho to take place in the same continuity as DW TOS than the presence of the Joker, Jim Gordon, and the Batcave requires The Dark Knight and Batman Begins to take place in the same continuity as the 1989 Batman film and Batman Returns.

And you're comparing apples and oranges with the Batman series since one was a live action show and other a cartoon with different theme music and different stroy structures.

Theme music doesn't make something the same TV series. Hell, some TV shows change their theme songs several times in the course of their run.

And the story structure is the point: DW TOS and nuWho are structured fundamentally differently. DW TOS was, of course, a collection of serials with short episodes and simplistic, sometimes quite camp, writing. NuWho, on the other hand, is a standard-length adventure/drama aimed at both children and adults, with much more sophisticated writing. (You cannot compare even the most sophisticated of DW TOS to something like "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood" or "Father's Day," nor could you compare even the most sophisticated episodes of Adam West's program to the typical B:TAS episode.)

 

[DWF]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Mostly because there was no particular reason to think that it was set in the same continuity as DW TOS. To me, starting off nuWho, assuming that DW TOS and nuWho must take place in the same continuity without confirmation in-universe seemed like the equivalent of assuming that the 1960s Batman must take place in the same continuity as the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series.

The Autons and the Nestine was something of a dead give away along with all the other elements of the old series.

That there were Autons and Nestene and the TARDIS and the Doctor no more required nuWho to take place in the same continuity as DW TOS than the presence of the Joker, Jim Gordon, and the Batcave requires The Dark Knight and Batman Begins to take place in the same continuity as the 1989 Batman film and Batman Returns.

And you're comparing apples and oranges with the Batman series since one was a live action show and other a cartoon with different theme music and different stroy structures.

Theme music doesn't make something the same TV series. Hell, some TV shows change their theme songs several times in the course of their run.

And the story structure is the point: DW TOS and nuWho are structured fundamentally differently. DW TOS was, of course, a collection of serials with short episodes and simplistic, sometimes quite camp, writing. NuWho, on the other hand, is a standard-length adventure/drama aimed at both children and adults, with much more sophisticated writing. (You cannot compare even the most sophisticated of DW TOS to something like "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood" or "Father's Day," nor could you compare even the most sophisticated episodes of Adam West's program to the typical B:TAS episode.)

You're splitting hairs and you know it, there's too many commonalities bewteen the two shows, there's even a Cyberman head in Dalek from Revenge Of The Cybermen.

And yes the storylines are structured in the same way a four parter is just four acts, the new series is so Americanized that it too conatains four acts and a teaser. The 22nd season was conprised of 44-45 minutes eps. that were put together as two parters and one three parter.

And the Adam West Batman series was camp the original Dr. Who was not.

 

[The Lensman]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

The Autons and the Nestine was something of a dead give away along with all the other elements of the old series.

That there were Autons and Nestene and the TARDIS and the Doctor no more required nuWho to take place in the same continuity as DW TOS than the presence of the Joker, Jim Gordon, and the Batcave requires The Dark Knight and Batman Begins to take place in the same continuity as the 1989 Batman film and Batman Returns.

And you're comparing apples and oranges with the Batman series since one was a live action show and other a cartoon with different theme music and different stroy structures.

Theme music doesn't make something the same TV series. Hell, some TV shows change their theme songs several times in the course of their run.

And the story structure is the point: DW TOS and nuWho are structured fundamentally differently. DW TOS was, of course, a collection of serials with short episodes and simplistic, sometimes quite camp, writing. NuWho, on the other hand, is a standard-length adventure/drama aimed at both children and adults, with much more sophisticated writing. (You cannot compare even the most sophisticated of DW TOS to something like "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood" or "Father's Day," nor could you compare even the most sophisticated episodes of Adam West's program to the typical B:TAS episode.)

You're splitting hairs and you know it, there's too many commonalities bewteen the two shows, there's even a Cyberman head in Dalek from Revenge Of The Cybermen.

And yes the storylines are structured in the same way a four parter is just four acts, the new series is so Americanized that it too conatains four acts and a teaser. The 22nd season was conprised of 44-45 minutes eps. that were put together as two parters and one three parter.

And the Adam West Batman series was camp the original Dr. Who was not.

While his examples are not the best, I agree with the sentiment. A better example would be "Superman Returns" being a sequel to "Superman 1 and 2". Despite things only looking basically the same, with much better visual FX and a more mature attitude, they're supposed to be in the same universe.

Really, though, they're not. "Superman Returns" is really just a "sorta sequel". Having familiar visual elements does NOT mean they're in the same universe.

While I am NOW more comfortable with nuWho and Classic being one longer narrative, in the early days it was more a "sorta continuation" in the way that "Superman Returns" was a "sorta sequel" to "Superman 2".

At any rate, Baker was my first Doctor and for years he would be the first image in my head if you said "The Doctor". Eccelston is my favorite Doctor for pretty much the same reasons as he is for Sci.

He is the most realistic and believable Doctor. The most down to earth both in attitude and the way the show was presented. He was a Doctor for a more mature audience and each succeeding Doctor has been more child friendly. Haven't seen anything like Jack kissing The Doctor since Nine. And there were certain everyday scenes that worked with Nine that just wouldn't work with Ten and Eleven.

I do prefer Eleven over Ten though. His wacky/zany act has aged badly as well his constant loud shouty-ness.

Nine wasn't a "coward" when he saw the Dalek in "Dalek". He was acting like someone in that universe who has knowledge of what the Daleks are and are capable of, **should** act. Especially if placed in a small room right in front of one.

Scared shitless.

Not nonchalant as if they're just another alien of the week.

And I disagree that Chris would'nt have been able to have been as exuberant as Tennant in "School Reunion". From what I've seen, Eccelston is a much better actor. His Doctor had far more nuance than Tennants loud, shouty Doctor. Plus, despite his survivors grief, he seemed genuinely full of exuberance quite a few times.

In the end, Eccelston made me a fan of Doctor Who. So much so that it lead me to explore the length and breadth of Doctor Who history. Thanks to Nine, One and Two are some of my fave's. I've even grown to like Six. Seven...not so much.

 

[DWF]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

That there were Autons and Nestene and the TARDIS and the Doctor no more required nuWho to take place in the same continuity as DW TOS than the presence of the Joker, Jim Gordon, and the Batcave requires The Dark Knight and Batman Begins to take place in the same continuity as the 1989 Batman film and Batman Returns.

Theme music doesn't make something the same TV series. Hell, some TV shows change their theme songs several times in the course of their run.

And the story structure is the point: DW TOS and nuWho are structured fundamentally differently. DW TOS was, of course, a collection of serials with short episodes and simplistic, sometimes quite camp, writing. NuWho, on the other hand, is a standard-length adventure/drama aimed at both children and adults, with much more sophisticated writing. (You cannot compare even the most sophisticated of DW TOS to something like "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood" or "Father's Day," nor could you compare even the most sophisticated episodes of Adam West's program to the typical B:TAS episode.)

You're splitting hairs and you know it, there's too many commonalities bewteen the two shows, there's even a Cyberman head in Dalek from Revenge Of The Cybermen.

And yes the storylines are structured in the same way a four parter is just four acts, the new series is so Americanized that it too conatains four acts and a teaser. The 22nd season was conprised of 44-45 minutes eps. that were put together as two parters and one three parter.

And the Adam West Batman series was camp the original Dr. Who was not.

While his examples are not the best, I agree with the sentiment. A better example would be "Superman Returns" being a sequel to "Superman 1 and 2". Despite things only looking basically the same, with much better visual FX and a more mature attitude, they're supposed to be in the same universe.

Really, though, they're not. "Superman Returns" is really just a "sorta sequel". Having familiar visual elements does NOT mean they're in the same universe.

While I am NOW more comfortable with nuWho and Classic being one longer narrative, in the early days it was more a "sorta continuation" in the way that "Superman Returns" was a "sorta sequel" to "Superman 2".

Could anybody make the claim that TNG wasn't set in the same universe as TOS? RTD wasn't making some new series he was making a continuation of the original, that was the intent. There's no way he could make the show exactly the same way the old series was no more than Gene Roddenberry could make TNG the same way TOS was produced.

 

[The Lensman]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

You're splitting hairs and you know it, there's too many commonalities bewteen the two shows, there's even a Cyberman head in Dalek from Revenge Of The Cybermen.

And yes the storylines are structured in the same way a four parter is just four acts, the new series is so Americanized that it too conatains four acts and a teaser. The 22nd season was conprised of 44-45 minutes eps. that were put together as two parters and one three parter.

And the Adam West Batman series was camp the original Dr. Who was not.

While his examples are not the best, I agree with the sentiment. A better example would be "Superman Returns" being a sequel to "Superman 1 and 2". Despite things only looking basically the same, with much better visual FX and a more mature attitude, they're supposed to be in the same universe.

Really, though, they're not. "Superman Returns" is really just a "sorta sequel". Having familiar visual elements does NOT mean they're in the same universe.

While I am NOW more comfortable with nuWho and Classic being one longer narrative, in the early days it was more a "sorta continuation" in the way that "Superman Returns" was a "sorta sequel" to "Superman 2".

Could anybody make the claim that TNG wasn't set in the same universe as TOS? RTD wasn't making some new series he was making a continuation of the original, that was the intent. There's no way he could make the show exactly the same way the old series was no more than Gene Roddenberry could make TNG the same way TOS was produced.

Sorry, but no. Until "Superman Returns" you had either a) direct continuation or b) reboot.

Now theres c) the "sorta continuation".

And this can utilize whatever it wants, in whatever form it wants. (See the second Hulk movie....which was NOT a direct sequel to Ang Lee's "Hulk".) "Superman Returns" was NOT a direct sequel despite having elements from the first two Superman movies.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

I remember a similar argument regarding Robert Rodriguez's "Predators" and so many people were saying it's a "re-boot" when it really wasn't. It was a sequel to the first two "Predator" movies since it referenced the first movie in about the first thirty minutes.

 

[Sci]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Thank you for your kind words, Lensman. Although...

While I am NOW more comfortable with nuWho and Classic being one longer narrative, in the early days it was more a "sorta continuation" in the way that "Superman Returns" was a "sorta sequel" to "Superman 2".

I want to clarify something:

It's not that I'm contending that nuWho was not a continuation of DW TOS. Rather, what I'm contending is that, up until "School Reunion," nuWho did not have to be seen as a continuation of DW TOS.

Really, the only visual link between it and DW TOS is the Cyberman head from "Dalek." Everything else about it has been altered, modernized. The Doctor never mentions any companions from before Rose, he never mentions having had any regenerations before Eccleston's -- hell, he never even uses the name "Gallifrey" for his homeworld until "The Runaway Bride" at the beginning of Series Three. Up until "School Reunion" -- and really, even including "School Reunion;" up until Series Three, even -- there are so few links with DW TOS that it's not unreasonable to choose to interpret nuWho as being a reimagining or updating of DW TOS rather than as being set in the same continuity as DW TOS.

That's not to say that that's the only reasonable interpretation of early nuWho. And certainly at this point, nuWho has established so many other links to DW TOS that it's no longer reasonable to make the argument that they aren't set in the same continuity. But for early nuWho, there were really so few links to DW TOS that I think the "different continuity" interpretation was at that time defensible.

Could anybody make the claim that TNG wasn't set in the same universe as TOS?

Plenty of Trekkies did at the time, actually. And that was helped along at least in part by the fact that Gene Roddenberry considered some of his TOS stuff to be non-canonical now that he'd changed is mind about what the Trekverse should be like in early TNG times.

RTD wasn't making some new series he was making a continuation of the original,

You're contradicting yourself. ST:TNG is a different series than ST:TOS. If nuWho is to ST:TNG as DW TOS is to ST:TOS, then it is a separate series.

Which it is, because, hey, guess what, a TV show that's not in production for 15 years is in point of fact dead, and any show made after that much time is a new show, not simply a continuation of the original production.

 

[Starkers]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

That there were Autons and Nestene and the TARDIS and the Doctor no more required nuWho to take place in the same continuity as DW TOS than the presence of the Joker, Jim Gordon, and the Batcave requires The Dark Knight and Batman Begins to take place in the same continuity as the 1989 Batman film and Batman Returns.

Theme music doesn't make something the same TV series. Hell, some TV shows change their theme songs several times in the course of their run.

And the story structure is the point: DW TOS and nuWho are structured fundamentally differently. DW TOS was, of course, a collection of serials with short episodes and simplistic, sometimes quite camp, writing. NuWho, on the other hand, is a standard-length adventure/drama aimed at both children and adults, with much more sophisticated writing. (You cannot compare even the most sophisticated of DW TOS to something like "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood" or "Father's Day," nor could you compare even the most sophisticated episodes of Adam West's program to the typical B:TAS episode.)

You're splitting hairs and you know it, there's too many commonalities bewteen the two shows, there's even a Cyberman head in Dalek from Revenge Of The Cybermen.

And yes the storylines are structured in the same way a four parter is just four acts, the new series is so Americanized that it too conatains four acts and a teaser. The 22nd season was conprised of 44-45 minutes eps. that were put together as two parters and one three parter.

And the Adam West Batman series was camp the original Dr. Who was not.

While his examples are not the best, I agree with the sentiment. A better example would be "Superman Returns" being a sequel to "Superman 1 and 2". Despite things only looking basically the same, with much better visual FX and a more mature attitude, they're supposed to be in the same universe.

Really, though, they're not. "Superman Returns" is really just a "sorta sequel". Having familiar visual elements does NOT mean they're in the same universe.

While I am NOW more comfortable with nuWho and Classic being one longer narrative, in the early days it was more a "sorta continuation" in the way that "Superman Returns" was a "sorta sequel" to "Superman 2".

At any rate, Baker was my first Doctor and for years he would be the first image in my head if you said "The Doctor". Eccelston is my favorite Doctor for pretty much the same reasons as he is for Sci.

He is the most realistic and believable Doctor. The most down to earth both in attitude and the way the show was presented. He was a Doctor for a more mature audience and each succeeding Doctor has been more child friendly. Haven't seen anything like Jack kissing The Doctor since Nine. And there were certain everyday scenes that worked with Nine that just wouldn't work with Ten and Eleven.

I do prefer Eleven over Ten though. His wacky/zany act has aged badly as well his constant loud shouty-ness.

Nine wasn't a "coward" when he saw the Dalek in "Dalek". He was acting like someone in that universe who has knowledge of what the Daleks are and are capable of, **should** act. Especially if placed in a small room right in front of one.

Scared shitless.

Not nonchalant as if they're just another alien of the week.

And I disagree that Chris would'nt have been able to have been as exuberant as Tennant in "School Reunion". From what I've seen, Eccelston is a much better actor. His Doctor had far more nuance than Tennants loud, shouty Doctor. Plus, despite his survivors grief, he seemed genuinely full of exuberance quite a few times.

In the end, Eccelston made me a fan of Doctor Who. So much so that it lead me to explore the length and breadth of Doctor Who history. Thanks to Nine, One and Two are some of my fave's. I've even grown to like Six. Seven...not so much.

To be fair I did say coward was the wrong sort of word

As for Sarah Jane, I just think Tennant's inner fanboy shone through...in a good way!

 

[DWF]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Which it is, because, hey, guess what, a TV show that's not in production for 15 years is in point of fact dead, and any show made after that much time is a new show, not simply a continuation of the original production.

As I recal your criteria for a new series were new production numbers and when it was proved that the Moffat/Smith era started at 1 just as the show did in 2005 you still change your opinion. and when I showed you that even Moffat considers the new series a continuation of the old show that didn't matter to you either.

None of this is really on topic though and IMO the Moffat/Smioth era is sadly lacking and Smith isn't helping matters. People claim he's like the classic Doctors yet shy away from any comparisons past a certain point, so I really don't see as how he compares with any of the other Doctors. We've seen past Doctors angry yet his anger in AGMGOTW is supposed to be something new yet it isn't.

 

[Anachronus]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

His anger over the space whale's plight was far more convincing.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Re: Smith resonates with me in a way that the other nuWho docs did not

Matt Smith is bloody brilliant imo but that doesn't mean there aren't and won't be poorly written lines/scenes/plots he has trouble pulling off vov.