Small Universe Syndrome

[BrotherBenny]

^I never remember Janeway as being written all that well, and I personally never got the impression that she was a veteran Captain. I always thought that she might have had 1-2 years experience as a commanding officer but Voyager was one of the weakest parts of the franchise in several respects and I'm sure I never watched every episode (more than once).

 

[Christopher]

^Maybe the show wasn't clear in establishing the fact that she was a veteran captain, but I don't recall anything in the show that would've led you to believe she wasn't.

 

[William Leisner]

There was nothing to suggest Janeway was anything but a veteran starship commander. Not as seasoned as Picard, to be sure, and perhaps a bit out of her depth, but she sure as hell was no John Harriman, either.*



*And I'm speaking strictly about Harriman as he was depicted on screen here, and purposely ignoring later analysis and stories. No need for another tangent here.

 

[Mysterion]

Here's another real-world example: The Marine Corps' IT community (when I was still in, at least) was a small group. If you stayed in long enough, you were either stationed or went to school with or simply ran into pretty much everyone, or at least knew who they were if they had a reputation worth knowing about (good or bad).

The special weapons field in the US Army was the same way. IIRc, there were less than 900 of us in the whole Army so, like you say, stay for any length of time and your reputation starts to precede you.

There are likely parts of Starfleet that are much the same way. Some of Kirk's interactions seemed to imply that starship captain's were a pretty small group.

 

[Lazarus]

^Maybe the show wasn't clear in establishing the fact that she was a veteran captain, but I don't recall anything in the show that would've led you to believe she wasn't.

Brother Benny is right in as much as that's the 'feel' the series seemed to give with regard to Janeway, or at least that's the impression that myself and probably others got from watching it.

Janeway did seem like she hadn't been a captain very long in Caretaker and throughout the first couple of seasons - contrast this with Picard who gave the impression that he was a vastly experienced starship commander with the opening scene of Encounter At Farpoint.

I suppose when push comes to shove it was never stated or even alluded to that she hadn't been a captain long, but again that's the impression I got early on.

Personally I quite liked the idea that Voyager was Janeway's first assignment as captain, although I've heard it mentioned in the Voyager forum that she should've been the chief science officer and been forced to take command when the captain and first officer were killed during the trip to the Delta Quadrant! Fantasic concept!

 

[Christopher]

^I just don't get that. I always had the perception of Janeway as a veteran captain. I found Mulgrew to be very strong and commanding from the start. Also, it was clear from "Caretaker" that Voyager wasn't her first command, because she was only given the ship for the one-time mission of pursuing Chakotay into the Badlands and retrieving Tuvok, and we were told that Tuvok had already been her chief of security at the time he went undercover with Chakotay. We were also told in episodes such as "Prime Factors" that Tuvok had served under Janeway for years prior to the series.

 

[21Spike65]

Having recently read the Invasion! series, I got the impression that Janeway was originally intended to be a new captain. I imagine the Voyager entry of Invasion! was written fairly early in the series, and it clearly states that Voyager was her first command. Obviously we know that's not true now, but I figured the author must have gotten that idea from somewhere.

 

[tmclough]

I just recently started watching Voyager on DVD (currently on Season 1, Disc 3), but I can understand why some people would get the impression of Voyager as being Janeway's first captaincy. I have to wonder, though, how much of that is the fact that she doesn't fit the mold of Sarah Palin or Hillary Clinton. (Mentioning both of them in one sentence?) We need to remember that in the ST future, women and men are treated much more as equals than they are today.

 

[Jbarney]

I always got the impression that she had been a captain for some time.

 

[JD]

Wow, it's amazing how many interpretations there were for Janeway's time as a ship commander.
Personally, I never really found it that clear on the show, they never really seemed to say alot about how long or how many things Janeway had been in charge during her career.

 

[Lazarus]

Yeah I definitely got the feeling she was new to the job, interesting that others did as well and others saw her as a veteran.

Also, it was clear from "Caretaker" that Voyager wasn't her first command, because she was only given the ship for the one-time mission of pursuing Chakotay into the Badlands and retrieving Tuvok, and we were told that Tuvok had already been her chief of security at the time he went undercover with Chakotay.

What bit of Caretaker led you to believe she was given the ship for a single mission exactly? As I understand it Voyager was almost certainly Janeway's ship and had been for a few months already, just the pride she took when introducing it - which also added to the perception that it was her first command.

I'm unsure why Tuvok being her security chief has any bearing on what we're discussing, I thought he had simply been her security officer for the months prior to the Badlands mission and Starfleet had given him the mission to infiltrate the Maquis.

 

[Christopher]

I just recently started watching Voyager on DVD (currently on Season 1, Disc 3), but I can understand why some people would get the impression of Voyager as being Janeway's first captaincy.

Well, would you explain it to me, please? Several people have said they got that impression, but not one person has said what there was specifically about the show's portrayal of Janeway that suggested any such thing.

What bit of Caretaker led you to believe she was given the ship for a single mission exactly?

It probably comes more from behind-the-scenes materials than from the text itself. I followed the news about the show pretty closely before its premiere, so maybe that's where I got the information.

As I understand it Voyager was almost certainly Janeway's ship and had been for a few months already, just the pride she took when introducing it - which also added to the perception that it was her first command.

What??? Captains are usually proud of their ships. It's illogical to jump to the conclusion that the only ship a captain could be proud of is her first one.

And of course Voyager was Janeway's ship at the time of "Caretaker," because she'd been assigned to command it by that point. I don't understand what that sentence is even supposed to mean. But where was it suggested in the show that she'd had it for months already?

I'm unsure why Tuvok being her security chief has any bearing on what we're discussing, I thought he had simply been her security officer for the months prior to the Badlands mission and Starfleet had given him the mission to infiltrate the Maquis.

Yes, exactly the point. He was her security officer for years prior to the Badlands mission. Because she was a captain for years prior to the Badlands mission. Surely I've proven that to be the case by now, so what's the point in continuing to debate impressions? Any impressions that she was a novice captain are incorrect. Period.

 

[Paris]

It's been a year or two since my last Voyager rewatch, but does anyone know which episode(s) it is established that Janeway was a captain before the series? Christopher is pretty adament that she was definitely a captain before Voyager (Any impressions that she was a novice captain are incorrect. Period.), so I'm assuming it's canon, but I can't recall it ever being said on screen that she was in fact a captain beforehand. I know that various books have said that she was the captain of the Billings, but which episode was it?

 

[Steve Roby]

Yes, exactly the point. He was her security officer for years prior to the Badlands mission. Because she was a captain for years prior to the Badlands mission. Surely I've proven that to be the case by now, so what's the point in continuing to debate impressions? Any impressions that she was a novice captain are incorrect. Period.

Tongue in cheek? Or living down to certain people's expectations?

It may not be canon, but I suspect Jeri Taylor's book Mosaic might be helpful in this discussion. Not that I remember what she established about Janeway's career, but it would have been addressed there.

 

[Christopher]

^I already addressed this above in post #98. In the episode "Revulsion," in the early fourth season, Janeway said explicitly that she met Tuvok nine years before, following her first command. I quoted the actual line of dialogue right there, only 17 posts ago. It is canonical that her first command was nearly six years before "Caretaker."

 

[Paris]

Ok. Revulsion. Thanks. Sorry I didn't double check the rest of the thread, specifically post #98 (which I guess was only 18 posts ago ). Maybe we should get back on topic before this turns into something ugly...

 

[tmclough]

I just recently started watching Voyager on DVD (currently on Season 1, Disc 3), but I can understand why some people would get the impression of Voyager as being Janeway's first captaincy.

Well, would you explain it to me, please? Several people have said they got that impression, but not one person has said what there was specifically about the show's portrayal of Janeway that suggested any such thing.

Read the rest of my post....

I have to wonder, though, how much of that is the fact that she doesn't fit the mold of Sarah Palin or Hillary Clinton.... We need to remember that in the ST future, women and men are treated much more as equals than they are today.

I'm not sure if it's the writing, the acting, the directing--I don't know how to tell the difference anyway--but to me it's something in the way she comes across as being "weaker" than Palin or Clinton. But, as I alluded to in the last sentence, we are comparing the future to the present.

 

[Steve Roby]

^I already addressed this above in post #98. In the episode "Revulsion," in the early fourth season, Janeway said explicitly that she met Tuvok nine years before, following her first command. I quoted the actual line of dialogue right there, only 17 posts ago. It is canonical that her first command was nearly six years before "Caretaker."

Oh, yeah. So it's number three: justified exasperation. I came into the topic this morning with your previous post as the first thing I saw and forgot about 98, so it seemed unduly harsh. Sorry about that.

Still, it's common for people to pop in and post having read, at most, the first post in it. Case in point: Paul Simpson's thread about finding the original Corgi cover art for Spock Must Die.

 

[Christopher]

Well, would you explain it to me, please? Several people have said they got that impression, but not one person has said what there was specifically about the show's portrayal of Janeway that suggested any such thing.

Read the rest of my post....

I have to wonder, though, how much of that is the fact that she doesn't fit the mold of Sarah Palin or Hillary Clinton.... We need to remember that in the ST future, women and men are treated much more as equals than they are today.

I'm not sure if it's the writing, the acting, the directing--I don't know how to tell the difference anyway--but to me it's something in the way she comes across as being "weaker" than Palin or Clinton. But, as I alluded to in the last sentence, we are comparing the future to the present.

That still doesn't tell me what there is specifically that gave that impression. I never saw her as weak. I felt from "Caretaker" onward that she came across as a very commanding, decisive figure. If anything, I felt they made her a little too tough and aggressive at first, as if overcompensating for gender expectations. So I really have no idea what you mean when you say she came across as weak.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Let me try to explain why I personally saw her as an inexperienced captain rather than a veteran as you have ably demonstrated to be the case.

Obviously I'm aware that being thrown tens of thousands of light years away from home is not that likely and therefore any commanding officer will be out of their depth, but Janeway did not seem, IMO, to know what she was doing. Even from Janeway's first appearance meeting with Paris, we learned she was a "best and the brightest" officer, or else Admiral Paris would not have chosen her for his staff on the Al Batani, but I didn't get the impression that she was a veteran captain. To me, she appeared to be a science officer with leadership skills given command of a starship, and the best episodes were where her science skills took centre stage.

She grew as a captain over the seven years, and after Seven joined the crew we saw her as a mentor, as Tuvok had supposedly been to her. Which brings me to my main point. I think the information given in "Revulsion" was a retcon since there was nothing else canonically to tell us she was captain prior to being given command of Voyager.

Christopher, you say in "Prime Factors" that it was established that Tuvok served under Janeway for several years prior to the show, but all that could mean was that she was an executive officer and he was security/tactical, he would still have been serving under her. According to Memory Alpha, Janeway met Tuvok in 2356 after her first command when he dressed her down in front of three admirals:

Janeway first met Tuvok in 2356. Janeway was dressed down by Tuvok in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during her first command. Although the incident bruised her "Human ego" at the time, she ultimately realized Tuvok was correct. (VOY: "Fury", "Revulsion")

Her age here would be somewhere between 18 and 28 based on the wildly differing birthdates given so her first command can be assumed to be when she was in first command of a mission, rather than a starship.

During the mid-2360s, Tuvok was temporarily assigned to Jupiter Station where he often wrote to Janeway. (VOY: "Tuvix") From 2365 onward, Janeway and Tuvok became close friends, and Janeway found she could always "rely on his insightful and unfailingly logical advice".

When Janeway was assigned to the Billings as a command officer (no canonical evidence to suggest she was the captain) she may have asked the captain to assign Tuvok as security/tactical officer in 2365, or Tuvok was assigned to the Billings and suggested Janeway as executive officer.

Either way, nothing indicates that she was a captain before taking command of Voyager, the possible "Revulsion" retcon notwithstanding. I believe Tuvok's mentoring of Janeway was established to aid in her mentoring of Seven rather than for any other reason.