Small Universe Syndrome

[Christopher]

Even from Janeway's first appearance meeting with Paris, we learned she was a "best and the brightest" officer, or else Admiral Paris would not have chosen her for his staff on the Al Batani, but I didn't get the impression that she was a veteran captain. To me, she appeared to be a science officer with leadership skills given command of a starship, and the best episodes were where her science skills took centre stage.

I don't see how those are incompatible. Yes, she was a science officer who rose to become a captain, but why assume that happened just before VGR instead of years earlier?

She grew as a captain over the seven years, and after Seven joined the crew we saw her as a mentor, as Tuvok had supposedly been to her.

We saw her as a mentor figure to Kes as well. She was a maternal figure to much of the crew, particularly Kes and Harry.

Which brings me to my main point. I think the information given in "Revulsion" was a retcon since there was nothing else canonically to tell us she was captain prior to being given command of Voyager.

Again, I've already addressed this point. The first draft of the writers' bible clearly states that Janeway is generally acknowledged to be one of the best captains in Starfleet -- something that could not be the case if she were a novice at the time Voyager was lost. It also states that she was "rapidly promoted." Whether it came across onscreen or not, it was unambiguously the intention of the show's developers from the beginning that Janeway was an experienced captain. It was not a retcon.

I mean, think about it. Janeway was the first female Star Trek captain. The producers knew they'd have to overcome a lot of chauvinism, that they'd have to prove right off the bat that Janeway was just as good as any male captain if not better. There's no way in hell they would've made her an inexperienced captain, because that would've played right into sexist assumptions and made her seem weak.

Christopher, you say in "Prime Factors" that it was established that Tuvok served under Janeway for several years prior to the show, but all that could mean was that she was an executive officer and he was security/tactical, he would still have been serving under her.

From onscreen evidence alone, it might have been taken to mean that, but I've already proven that was not the intent.

According to Memory Alpha, Janeway met Tuvok in 2356 after her first command when he dressed her down in front of three admirals:

Have you been reading my posts at all? I've already referred to that fact twice so far.

Her age here would be somewhere between 18 and 28 based on the wildly differing birthdates given so her first command can be assumed to be when she was in first command of a mission, rather than a starship.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Jeri Taylor created Kathryn Janeway. Jeri Taylor wrote the novel Mosaic. Jeri Taylor told us in Mosaic that Kathryn Janeway first met Tuvok after her first mission as a captain. She was repeatedly addressed as "Captain" by rank and it was repeatedly made explicit that she had been the captain of the ship. That is the intention of the woman who created the character. What the hell more do you need?

 

[BrotherBenny]

Jeri Taylor created Kathryn Janeway. Jeri Taylor wrote the novel Mosaic. Jeri Taylor told us in Mosaic that Kathryn Janeway first met Tuvok after her first mission as a captain. She was repeatedly addressed as "Captain" by rank and it was repeatedly made explicit that she had been the captain of the ship. That is the intention of the woman who created the character. What the hell more do you need?

Mosaic isn't canon. I'm looking for canonical evidence that shows her to be a veteran captain, something that comes across on screen and not from the bible. We don't see the bible, and don't know the intent of the creator. Taylor might have written all this about Janeway and the intent clearly was for her to be a veteran captain, but canonically, it doesn't hold up.

A person in command is supposed to be addressed as captain, regardless of rank. Once I get over to the US I'll have to read Mosaic again, since I can't do so at the moment. It's being shipped across. But can we at least agree that whatever the intention was, it didn't come across?

 

[Paris]

Good luck

 

[BrotherBenny]

Good luck

I'll need it. But when I am in the US and have my stuff, I'll rewatch those episodes to see if the argument stands up from either side.

 

[TheAlmanac]

Christopher, I think you need to a) take a deep breath, and 2) realise that this is just one of those impressionist things that's going to come across to people, regardless of what tidbits may have been dropped here and there throughout the series.

It's like "Kirk's a womaniser." You can canonically demonstrate how that reputation is overblown or misguided, and how the facts show something different to be the case, but (at least some) casual viewers are still going to see him that way--and even the reputation itself is canonical, according to Sisko.

FWIW, I also got the general impression, despite no particular explicitly-stated facts to this effect, that Voyager was Janeway's first starship command. If Jeri Taylor et al. had the goal of demonstrating otherwise, they clearly failed for some subset of the viewership, in a way that (by contrast) TNG didn't by making clear(er) references to Picard's prior command.

 

[rahullak]

I think that's what's outside onscreen canon, whether written by the creators of the character or not, shouldn't be taken as canon. Which means any supposed events outside of canon can be interpreted either way. On the face of it, it might appear to make a better storyline and perhaps fit in better with the way she was depicted onscreen to assume that Janeway was an experienced captain before taking command of Voyager. But there's no reason why she could not also be considered a first-time captain who just happened to be really good at command, and perhaps rose through the ranks pretty fast.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think the information given in "Revulsion" was a retcon since there was nothing else canonically to tell us she was captain prior to being given command of Voyager.

That a specific line about already having been a captain didn't get canonized until "Revulsion" isn't proof of a retcon. Co-creator Jeri Taylor already knew full well that Janeway had a certain backstory, and she eventually fleshed that out in the novel, "Mosaic".

Have you seen the footage of Elizabeth Janeway, played by grey-streaked veteran actress Genevieve Bujold, who was presented as an experienced, grey-streaked, veteran captain? All that happened in recasting was a name change and a younger looking actress. They didn't suddenly decide that Kathyrn Janeway was going to be an untried captain.

 

[William Leisner]

I'm looking for canonical evidence that shows her to be a veteran captain, something that comes across on screen and not from the bible.

Canonical evidence that Janeway was a veteran captain as of "Caretaker":

1. She is, to be indelicate, a "woman of a certain age." Kate Mulgrew was 39 when she first took the role. In contrast, Shatner was 34 when he became Kirk, who (I think) was canonically established to have only been in the center seat for a couple years at most. Likewise, Chris Pine was 28 when JJ cast him, and Jonathan Frakes was 34 when he was cast as the up-and-coming junior officer who'd recently been offered his own first command. The casting of a "mature" actress in the role is the first hint that Janeway was supposed to be a seasoned veteran, rather than any kind of newbie. (And before someone pipes up, "Well, she could be!"... yes, she could, but we're going to think horses here instead of zebras, okay?)

2. She is in total command from the start. Janeway is the only one giving orders, and does so without hesitation and with complete confidence. Her first officer is barely acknowledged before he bites it, and after he does, Janeway continues to command with the same level-headed confidence.

3. Harry Kim is the new, green officer, and Janeway considers him with the bemusement of a seasoned officer, not with any of the sympathy one might expect from someone similarly finding herself in a new position.

4. Janeway doesn't hesitate to put Chakotay, the (supposedly) charismatic leader of the criminal half of the crew, in the first officer position, ahead of her long-time trusted advisor, Tuvok. This is a rather remarkable display of self-confidence that either proves a remarkable degree of comfort with her position, or insanity.

5. Janeway doesn't hesitate to do anything, really. Blow up their only way home without consultation? Knowing she'll never see Mark and the dogs, and knowing she'll be stuck on a ship full of rebels and mercenaries, plus a paroled criminal and a wet-behind-the-ears ops officer? Not to mention diving head-first into every anomaly they subsequently run across, on the odd chance there might be coffee? Again, if this isn't proof of being a veteran captain, it's proof of reckless stupidity.

So, now, Benny, I'm eager to hear your "canonical evidence" that Janeway was newly promoted, as opposed having you simply repeat, for the 23rd time, "Well, I just feel this way!!!"

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'm looking for canonical evidence that shows her to be a veteran captain, something that comes across on screen and not from the bible.

Canonical evidence that Janeway was a veteran captain as of "Caretaker":

1. She is, to be indelicate, a "woman of a certain age." Kate Mulgrew was 39 when she first took the role. In contrast, Shatner was 34 when he became Kirk, who (I think) was canonically established to have only been in the center seat for a couple years at most. Likewise, Chris Pine was 28 when JJ cast him, and Jonathan Frakes was 34 when he was cast as the up-and-coming junior officer who'd recently been offered his own first command. The casting of a "mature" actress in the role is the first hint that Janeway was supposed to be a seasoned veteran, rather than any kind of newbie. (And before someone pipes up, "Well, she could be!"... yes, she could, but we're going to think horses here instead of zebras, okay?)

2. She is in total command from the start. Janeway is the only one giving orders, and does so without hesitation and with complete confidence. Her first officer is barely acknowledged before he bites it, and after he does, Janeway continues to command with the same level-headed confidence.

3. Harry Kim is the new, green officer, and Janeway considers him with the bemusement of a seasoned officer, not with any of the sympathy one might expect from someone similarly finding herself in a new position.

4. Janeway doesn't hesitate to put Chakotay, the (supposedly) charismatic leader of the criminal half of the crew, in the first officer position, ahead of her long-time trusted advisor, Tuvok. This is a rather remarkable display of self-confidence that either proves a remarkable degree of comfort with her position, or insanity.

5. Janeway doesn't hesitate to do anything, really. Blow up their only way home without consultation? Knowing she'll never see Mark and the dogs, and knowing she'll be stuck on a ship full of rebels and mercenaries, plus a paroled criminal and a wet-behind-the-ears ops officer? Not to mention diving head-first into every anomaly they subsequently run across, on the odd chance there might be coffee? Again, if this isn't proof of being a veteran captain, it's proof of reckless stupidity.

So, now, Benny, I'm eager to hear your "canonical evidence" that Janeway was newly promoted, as opposed having you simply repeat, for the 23rd time, "Well, I just feel this way!!!"

Insanity and reckless stupidity? sounds like a newbie captain to me.

I'll take your points in order.

1. Yes, I get the point that she's an older woman and therefore meant to be a seasoned captain rather than a newbie, and Therin, I have seen Bujold in the role of Janeway. *Shudders* However, what you have given here in RL evidence of intent, not canonical evidence of proof. I don't have my DVDs with me and it has been 9 years since the show ended, so my memory may be a little off in places, but her decisions are reckless, stupid and insane in Caretaker as you said, which points to a new captain unsure of herself rather than a veteran.

2. She's completely out her depth and her command officers, including Cavit who appears to be somewhat older, bite the dust leaving her alone until Tuvok comes back. Her mentor and the only one who makes sense. In Caretaker he even made it clear that they shouldn't get involved but she overruled him. Yes she gives orders without hesitation, captains aren't supposed to let underlings see the second-guessing going on. But ignoring someone she sees as a mentor is blindingly stupid and hopelessly emotional, she let her feelings for the Ocampa blind her, which to me suggests newbie.

3. We don't even know how long she has been in command of Voyager except that she took command in early 2371 ("Relativity"). She appears more bemused by Harry's greenness when it comes to terms of address than anything else, and comments (in "Caretaker") that she needs to make the time to get to know people. Here I will concede that this could be interpreted to mean that she has had a prior command, or that she didn't know many of the people she has already lost in the trip across the galaxy.

4. Tuvok doesn't have command experience, and neither is he on the command track, he is security/tactical, and by placing Chakotay in the XO position, she gives herself a safety net with another officer who has command experience (and who may or may not have been a Captain. He almost certainly was XO though).

5. My vote here goes to to reckless stupidity. A seasoned captain would get home as fast as possible and keep to herself so as not to upset the balance of power in every region she came across, except when it could be a possible way home.

I think I'm going to drop this since I cannot prove with any certainty that Janeway was a newbie captain, and no one can give me any proof (other than the series bible's intent) that she was a veteran.

 

[elaithin]

Wouldn't the series bible's intent qualify as proof?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Perhaps, though in general the series bible is often just a starting point, containing lots of little tidbits of info on the characters, setting, and so on that end up not being used, or just plain get contradicted because the writers later think of something better. Example: in the original TNG writer's bible, Data was built by aliens.

In this case, though, it's probably a safe bet. Despite the fact that VGR could play fast and loose with background details on occasion, there's plenty of onscreen evidence to support the notion of Janeway being an experienced captain prior to her taking command of Voyager.

 

[captcalhoun]

i got the impression that she was a veteran officer but a new Captain.

i got the impression she'd done a few tours as science officer, maybe a couple as a Number One, but that VGR was her first ship command assignment.

 

[BrotherBenny]

That does seem to be the prevailing opinion among the non-pro-writers.

My point, though I clearly failed to get it across, was that even though the intent was for her to be a veteran captain, the impression of people who watched the show that have said anything on here, did not bear that out. A friend of mine thought she was a veteran, though.

 

[Christopher]

Mosaic isn't canon.

I'm not addressing canon here, I'm addressing your assumptions about the creators' intentions, specifically that they intended her to be a novice and later introduced a retcon. I'm saying that Mosaic represents the intentions of the person who created Kathryn Janeway. She wrote it on her own, without the involvement of any of the show's other producers, so it stands to reason that it represents her purest possible ideas about the character's backstory. Although the lines from the first-draft writer's bible about Janeway being generally regarded as one of Starfleet's best captains should be conclusive in itself about what the creators' original intentions for the character were.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Not everybody has access to the writer's guides, and has been discussed, what's in the bible isn't necessarily what always makes it to the screen. It's what's on the screen that counts, and there's plenty there, so let's all take a friggin' breath, okay?

 

[JustKate]

That does seem to be the prevailing opinion among the non-pro-writers.

My point, though I clearly failed to get it across, was that even though the intent was for her to be a veteran captain, the impression of people who watched the show that have said anything on here, did not bear that out. A friend of mine thought she was a veteran, though.

I always - and I do mean always - got the impression that she was an experienced captain, and I am most certainly not one of the Trek writers.

 

[Lazarus]

I'm unsure why Tuvok being her security chief has any bearing on what we're discussing, I thought he had simply been her security officer for the months prior to the Badlands mission and Starfleet had given him the mission to infiltrate the Maquis.

Yes, exactly the point. He was her security officer for years prior to the Badlands mission. Because she was a captain for years prior to the Badlands mission. Surely I've proven that to be the case by now, so what's the point in continuing to debate impressions? Any impressions that she was a novice captain are incorrect.

Period.

God you're hard work aren't you? I appreciate that you're an author but you shouldn't really keep talking down to people in the way you do in so many of your posts when someone disagrees with you. I've seen it very often but this is my first time as the target. There really is no need for it.

You haven't "proven" anything, your opinion is that the material in the first few episodes gives people the impression (sorry I'm continuing to "debate impressions") that she is a veteran captain. Not everyone feels that this is the case.

There really is no need for these little rants where you attempt to belittle people, because that is basically what you're doing. People don't like being talked down to. People don't want another poster, whatever their connection to the franchise, jumping down their throats when they voice an opinion that is different from your own.

For example:

Have you been reading my posts at all? I've already referred to that fact twice so far.

That is the intention of the woman who created the character. What the hell more do you need?

As someone who apparently earns their living through writing, is it really necessary to write statements like "what the hell more do you need?" Or could you phrase things differently? I'm almost positive you wouldn't have the nerve to speak to someone in such a manner in person because of the obvious consequences to yourself, and just because you're speaking on a messageboard it doesn't mean that you should give youself free rein to say anything you wish because the nature of the internet eliminates those consequences.

In response to "what the hell more to you need", I'd ask "who the hell do you think you're speaking to?" I think the poster that you directed this particular bit of venom towards deserves an apology from you.

The problem is speaking in this tone to people turns a pleasant discussion - which is what this thread was - into something not very pleasant.

As you would say:

"Period."

 

[BrotherBenny]

Mosaic isn't canon.

I'm not addressing canon here, I'm addressing your assumptions about the creators' intentions, specifically that they intended her to be a novice and later introduced a retcon. I'm saying that Mosaic represents the intentions of the person who created Kathryn Janeway. She wrote it on her own, without the involvement of any of the show's other producers, so it stands to reason that it represents her purest possible ideas about the character's backstory. Although the lines from the first-draft writer's bible about Janeway being generally regarded as one of Starfleet's best captains should be conclusive in itself about what the creators' original intentions for the character were.

^ Not everybody has access to the writer's guides, and has been discussed, what's in the bible isn't necessarily what always makes it to the screen. It's what's on the screen that counts, and there's plenty there, so let's all take a friggin' breath, okay?

As I have said, my impression of her did not jibe with the intent.

That does seem to be the prevailing opinion among the non-pro-writers.

My point, though I clearly failed to get it across, was that even though the intent was for her to be a veteran captain, the impression of people who watched the show that have said anything on here, did not bear that out. A friend of mine thought she was a veteran, though.

I always - and I do mean always - got the impression that she was an experienced captain, and I am most certainly not one of the Trek writers.

I said the prevailing opinion was that she was not a veteran, not the only opinion.

Anyway, this has wondered way too far off topic and I'm dropping it.

 

[rahullak]

I think it really doesn't matter what the intent was of the writers, producers, directors or anybody else for Janeway or any other character. What matters is what's depicted onscreen. And if its possible to interpret onscreen material in different ways, then all options become opinions and not canonical facts.

I'm forgetting and too lazy to check, what was the connection of this line of discussion with the thread title?

 

[Christopher]

^ Not everybody has access to the writer's guides, and has been discussed, what's in the bible isn't necessarily what always makes it to the screen. It's what's on the screen that counts, and there's plenty there, so let's all take a friggin' breath, okay?

But the specific point I was responding to was not about onscreen canon or audience perception, but about the actual intent of the creators of the show, i.e. whether or not the lines in "Revulsion" were a retcon from their original definition of the Janeway character. For that particular question, the evidence I cited was relevant. And it seems like BrotherBenny has accepted that now, so I'm content to let the matter drop.