Poll "Small Universe Syndrome" - Yay Or Nay?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by wayoung, Sep 9, 2021.

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Do you enjoy fiction that has Small Universe Syndrome?

  1. Yes! I love when my favourite characters all end up connected!

    27 vote(s)
    67.5%
  2. No, it breaks my suspension of disbelief

    13 vote(s)
    32.5%
  1. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, that whole movie took a nosedive. It tried so hard to align itself with the classic characters that it looked desperate. A cool baddie of its own could have been created for the trilogy, but instead they pull a Grandaddy Palpatine. I know they meant it to be cool, but It actually made me feel embarrassed.
     
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  2. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd have been happy with Snoke being Darth Plagueis returning from hiding and faking his own death to rule over the First Order and then the Final Order, but nope. We got...what we got.
     
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  3. Booji

    Booji Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    After watching TFA the first time I figured Rey was either the granddaughter of Obi-Wan or Palps. Seemed obvious to me. :shrug:
     
  4. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would have thought the key thing would have been to not be obvious. What they'd done was fall prey to Nostalgia. The only reason it it seemed so unexpected was that at its heart, linking it directly to the OT in this manner, pretty much blindsided out of how obvious it was with its small-universe-syndrome. You have Disney that inherited one of the most sought-after franchises, and could do anything with it, remember they're a company with one of the most creative resources around, but the best they could do was pull Palpatine out of a hat and call it a day.

    The ST had too many coincidentally linked characters leaning on the OT, and not enough original characters that could stand on their own. All the previous movies, including the PT had characters that could stand on their own in their own trilogy, both hero and villains. In the ST, it felt like every other character played in Rey's periphery, and they never seemed to have growth of their own, then both the Hero (Rey) and Villain Kylo Ren (Ben) end up being Skywalker or Solo, and they're both related by blood. That's on top of Palpatine returning as a Retconned Grandpapa, another OT character instead of something, you know, new! The Galaxy Far Far Away suddenly seemed infinitesimally small. The unexpected would have been to give us something entirely new and menacing as the face of the First Order, someone rising through the ashes of the Empire, akin to Kylo Ren's higher power with a similar power dynamic that Vader and Palpatine shared. The First Order then would have made more sense, because then you would have someone rising up and forging a path to replace Palpatine, and another following in the path of their grandfather, doing what they thought was best. Kylo Ren seemed to have it too easy, as the only major power without anyone questioning what he was doing, to smack him down a peg. It was a power vacuum. It needed someone like Snoke, but they'd disposed of him too early.
     
  5. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Darth Plagueis had the great potential to become the unseen mastermind behind the entire Skywalker Saga and only surface in the flesh in Episode VII under an assumed name but that was never explored. It would have been great to see that Palpatine/Sidious - as evil as he was - wasn't the true pinnacle of evil in that galaxy and that his former Master had spent decades in hiding waiting for the moment his misguided apprentice failed in his bid to achieve ultimate power. Then he'd step into the vacuum post-ROTJ to take what he'd felt was rightfully his: the galaxy.
     
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  6. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yep, there was just so much more they could have done, that would have both fleshed out the post-ROTJ galaxy and the characters living in it. They failed to properly flesh out that part of it, and as a result the war that the new kids were fighting was less defined, was more of war they were fighting because they were fighting. The political reasoning underlying it wasn't there.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would have hated the Plagueis reveal. I was not a fan of the Palpatine one but it at least made sense from the PT, to OT forward.
     
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  8. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I can sort of understand why...the OT got rid of all its villains and left nothing to make a new villain from. The Prequels then salted the Earth with the idea of Alien Invader bad guys. Star Wars' big enemy has always been the Darksiders, but ROTJ killed all of them and then the PT said there was a Prophecy of how the Chosen One was going to kill all of them forever. So any Sequels at all would mess that up.
     
  9. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's why you create a new villain though. There's no excuse not to, especially with a galaxy that's supposed to be large. Not at that late stage in the game. They had a whole playground to work with! If you look at each trilogy, they each had their own set of villains. The ST is the only one that actively plucked an old villain out of retirement to be their mastermind. Palpatine was the villain for our 80's heroes to duel. He had his place back then, and these new heros confronting him felt out of place.
     
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  10. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Admiral Admiral

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    Thoughts and prayers with Oscar Isaac who had to deliver that line “somehow…Palpatine returned” with a straight face.
     
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  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Palpatine is the devil of SW. His return seemed inevitable from how powerful he was presented as in the PT and TCW.
     
  12. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'll admit these two are unnecessay, but I can see the appeal in adding in those kinds of connections as a way to make things more personal for the other chracters..
    They didn`t retcon anything, they never established who Rey's parents were, all we know is Kylo Ren considered them nobodies, which isn't really that much of a contadiction since her father had turned his back on good ol' Sheev, and was living out in the ass end of the galaxy. And she was Palpatine's granddaughter not daughter, I think. Technically, I guess you could call her his daughter since her dad was a clone, but pretty much everything I've seen has said granddaughter.


    Is that really the general opinion? I remember enjoying it when I saw it the first time. I'll see for sure how I feel when I rewatch it as prep for No Time to Die.
    I thought it made perfect sense for the saga's big bad to show up one last time. It's not the first time a series has brought back a past villain for one final confrontation at the end.

    Plagueis would have felt even more random than Palpatine.

    I think it makes sense to bring back a villain with a big history in the series for the final movie as a way to tie it back into that history.
     
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  13. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, Spectre is pretty widely criticized and disliked. You find fans of the film but it usually battles with Quantum of Solace for absolute worst movie of the Craig Era.
     
  14. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It is though, when you consider he was a major villain with some of the most impact on the whole trilogy. The only other I can plausibly think of would be Darth Maul, and that cameo in Solo, but that doesn't even really compare.

    It already has plenty of ways to tie it back into that history without bringing back Palpatine. This in comparison is a spiderweb of family relations that only end up narrowing the focus and potential of the saga. It kind of suggests that only you can be powerful if you're either a Solo or a Skywalker. Next Up, The Skywalker-Solo Family Reunion Special!
     
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  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There was nowhere for a new villain to come from. The response the Alien villains in the Prequels got meant alien enemies either inside or invaders from Outside wouldn't work. And aside from them all that's left are Darksiders, but the "Chosen One" thing from the Prequels also meant that any new Darksiders would automatically ruin Vader's sacrifice.

    So they were boned when it came to making a new villain.
     
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  16. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would have groaned if Darth Plagueis had shown up in the ST, because it would have meant bringing back something from the PT, which I would rather not be reminded of too much.

    Kor
     
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  17. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course there is. In fact, the destruction of the Empire and the time between ROTJ and TFA provide a perfect opportunity and backstory for something of that nature to occur. I would even say that having an old villain back, and someone as high-level as Palpatine, makes less sense with the destruction of the Empire. And a trilogy is a great way to build up and grow the backstory, both in setting and characters. It then provides the new heroes some threat of their own to deal with (something I felt was lacking), giving them a sense of urgency, to fight it alongside the older heroes. The key is in creating. Disney had everything at their disposal, and every opportunity to turn it into gold.

    Here's a quick example:
    Movie 1: With roughly 30 years of peace since the Empire fell, among the ashes of the old, a new threat emerges. One with ambition to rise up in the power vacuum in the wake of the Empire's destruction. With followers of his own (of which Kylo Ren is included) they begin to make their presence known by proceeding to take over some of the Republic's territories. The heroes, Rey included, begin to sense increasing trouble. This would send Rey out in search of Luke, as he himself, who's been living a secluded life, he too begins to feel a trouble disturbance. And begin the movie with something other than a desert planet to start with. And seriously, leaving the whispers of the growing threat to the very end with the 3rd movie I felt was a mistake. Put something like it at the beginning and it would make more sense.

    Movie 2: By now, we see Kylo Ren has ambitions of his own. Perhaps learning of his lineage makes him cocky, but in his own way, he wants to honor the memory of his Grandfather. Seems this new Villain and him don't always see eye-to-eye, which over the course of the movie, we see rising conflict, with an eventual confrontation towards the end which almost leads Kylo Ren to kill him and usurping power. Meanwhile, we see Luke training his new student Rey, although he never thought he'd be training anyone again after already crossing paths with Kylo Ren once before (Yes, some things stay the same with my idea). Meanwhile, despite our hero's best efforts, the new order is only growing bolder and more organized with their attempts to bring back darkness out of the shadows.

    Movie 3: By now, our heroes are facing quite a considerable threat which is only growing more powerful, but they also know more about him and what he plans to do, and they are racing to get the upper hand. Our heroes are also fighting alongside some old and familiar friends along the way, including Rey who's got some new skills to show off. As our villain is at the crux of his plan, Kylo turns on his master, telling him he should have killed him when he had the chance. It's then that alongside our heroes, Kylo vanquishes his master. Kylo turns to Rey, and you can still see the anguish in his eyes, uncertain at what he'll do. They circle around each other, Rey trying to talk him down, and eventually dropping to his knees with exhaustion and dropping his saber, Kylo he admits to being defeated and not having the heart or will to oppose them, also admitting that he never truly felt like he belonged among the new order.

    Now, see, these are broad strokes and all that and they're just ideas that are not very well developed, but I think seeing something like this would have been more satisfying.
     
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  18. The Santalorian

    The Santalorian Admiral Admiral

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    I would have been fine with Palpatine’s appearance if he had appeared as a force ghost pulling someone else’s strings. Just as “THE big bad” he felt redundant.

    Even worse than him appearing though was bringing an epic decades spanning saga to a close with a Jedi Kamehameha.

    With all the Jedi behind her, Rey’s mitochlorians were OVER 9000!!!!!
     
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  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's a gross oversimplification. Not saying it would be easy, but the answer of bring back Palpatine is too easy. Snoke was interesting at the start, and could have persisted. Would it be easy? No, but i would have welcomed less Palpatine.
     
  20. Owain Taggart

    Owain Taggart Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I'd probably be fine with that. I also think a large part of the issue for me was that it was left to the last movie. No rumblings at all until the last movie where it had to reveal everything was a bit much to take. If they'd added hints to cast suspicion that something of that nature was going on, throughout the trilogy, then that would have been far more palatable. The way it was though came across feeling like a last-minute scramble attempt at Nostalgia.
     
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