Slightly pathetic that theres never been LGBT characters in ST

[Alrik]

I think it had more to do with the shows becoming more conservative and living on TOS' reputation of being progressive. I think the people who ran the shows were more conservative than their 1960's counterparts.

I don't dispute that one bit. It was actually a combination. TOS was made at a very progressive time in the US, and pushed the envelope with some thinly veiled social commentary in several episodes. But what most people don't realize/remember, is by the time TNG hit the scene the US had swung to a far more conservative/constrictive place, and stayed there for a long time. Enterprise was the only series that was being produced at a time where they might have been able to pull it off, but the court of public opinion still had not completely come full circle on the LGBT community. Add to the the fact that Enterprise's ratings where in the tank most weeks and it just didn't make for an environment for risk taking.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I do agree that the end of the episode with Odan could've been handled a little better. The ending is vague in exactly what's going on, since Beverly's words don't really match her actions. It does feel like Beverly is being less than honest. I still don't think she's homophobic for not wanting to be with a woman, just straight.

When this episode came out, my opinion, and the opinions of other queer Trek fans that I knew, was that it was a positive thing. At the very least we had a LGBT -ish character in
femme Odan, a man who was now a woman and loved another woman. Back then we were a lot easier to please I guess.

The funny thing is, the preference/homophobe issue is not something you'd originally notice the first time viewing the episode.

You'd probably just see it as a story about if a relationship can survive change, like I did.

I think since heterosexuality is considered the norm, Beverly nicely rejecting Odan for being female was not surprising to viewers or sponsors --it was considered a normal reaction.

As a female, she was supposed to be expecting a male.

It's when you re watch it again, later on, you notice Beverly's reaction- she rejected Odan because she's not into females!

Her reaction brings up the question of how do 24th century people turn down an offer for a same sex relationship. How do they do it honestly?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well I believe that is why it is called FICTION or to be exact FANFICTION

Notice how whenever a film has a bad script the main criticism is that the scripts reads like a fan fiction and not a script written by professional writers.

I am trying to make clear of the difference between the two.

I am not trying to mess with your pleasure or what turns you on what I am saying is there is a fine line between an actual serious story to tell that soft porn fanfiction written from a fan perspective usually girls

at the oscars fanfictions of a film do not win awards...The original and adapted screen play does.

Have fun with whatever you want but blurring the line between the two would get you very confused.

xavier where did anyone ever claim fanfiction was the same as fiction on the screen?

Oh except for 50 Shades of course, which started out as Twilight fanfiction and made the writer millions of dollars, go her. A "girl" though, so you'd best dismiss her as such

Yes the irony of that. 50 shades of grey is one of the worst, darkest and most terrible moment in publishing in my personal opinon.

the fanfic actually became a book and now they are making a film. it is atrocious and terrible.

the book is soft porn and it was read by girls by 95%. which is my main point.

lets see how many real awards the book will win or how many people will take it seriously.

I believe the author would be laughing at your post, all the way to the bank as they say.

And yes please answer the question: What does the fact that something is mainly read by "girls" have to do with anything?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Even before Smithers officially came out on the Simpsons, John Waters did an episode where he played a version of himself who was Homer's gay friend.

I do agree that the end of the episode with Odan could've been handled a little better. The ending is vague in exactly what's going on, since Beverly's words don't really match her actions. It does feel like Beverly is being less than honest. I still don't think she's homophobic for not wanting to be with a woman, just straight.

I agree it was vague. So much tip toeing, that's what I'd like to see in new Trek, an end to that being careful stuff. I have to wonder though if people would be as inclined to rail on Riker for not being broadminded if it had been him falling for a female Trill who then turned into a male? I think people found it easier to swallow two women together and felt like Beverly was not being 24th century enough.

People may be more fluid in the 24th century and have zero intolerance but preference will still exist for both gender and looks.

It would have had more impact if this was a long term relationship. It was a brief fling, sure Bev had feeeeeeeelings etc.. but time does bind you and they did not have much time. Perhaps if she spent a couple years with Odan she would have rediscovered "him" in the female Trill and her sexual preferences would have been more fluid than she had previously thought.

All of which is to say.. I think this story still needs to be told, only better. They wanted to do it with Jadzia but Trill laws was their excuse to only go there for 5 minutes

 

[Melakon]

What does the fact that something is mainly read by "girls" have to do with anything?

Well, it should be obvious, shouldn't it? For an erotic work, it doesn't have enough pictures to hold a man's interest.

 

[borgboy]

I did see the issue of sexual orientation the first time i saw it.
I'd say straight people in Trek reject a same sex advance the same way gay people would reject an opposite sex advance. Politely and without prejudice.
In Jeri Taylor's Voyager novel Pathways, Harry rejects his gay roommates intetest and they stay close friends.
There's also some hilarious stuff in New Frontier with bisexual hermaphrodite Burgoyne pursuing Selar.

 

[GENERAL_DS]

It would be even more wrong to 'force' a gay character into the show and make that character constantly remind us that he is gay. Shouldn't our gay character only remind us aboud his gayness through the fact that he has subspace communications with his husband and nobody else on the crew gives a flying fuck about it. \

While I know that this isnt really the case in star trek, and it should be.
However, and i dont know if this was already pointed out, there was this crewmember in the new Star Trek movie(s) that did look like she wasnt exactly a heterosexual. Sadly i have a hard time finding a picture.

There it is

 

[borgboy]

she looks fabulous but I don't see that bald equals not straight

 

[GENERAL_DS]

That combination of fashion choices is mostly seen as a stereotype.

 

[BillJ]

she looks fabulous but I don't see that bald equals not straight

This. My wife keeps telling me I'll wake up one morning to her with a shaved head.

 

[Melakon]

However, and i dont know if this was already pointed out, there was this crewmember in the new Star Trek movie(s) that did look like she wasnt exactly a heterosexual.

I don't see anything in that photo that would make me draw a conclusion about her sexuality at all.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It would be even more wrong to 'force' a gay character into the show and make that character constantly remind us that he is gay. Shouldn't our gay character only remind us aboud his gayness through the fact that he has subspace communications with his husband and nobody else on the crew gives a flying fuck about it. \

Yeah Kirk should definitely not have womanized all those womanly woman, he should have kept it to subspace communications. But nooo he had to shout his heterosexuality to the whole quadrant.

While I know that this isnt really the case in star trek, and it should be.
However, and i dont know if this was already pointed out, there was this crewmember in the new Star Trek movie(s) that did look like she wasnt exactly a heterosexual. Sadly i have a hard time finding a picture.

There it is

Right and you can tell Darwin's sexual preference in this picture HOW?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What does the fact that something is mainly read by "girls" have to do with anything?

Well, it should be obvious, shouldn't it? For an erotic work, it doesn't have enough pictures to hold a man's interest.

I always want to ask the people who are outraged that 50 Shades sold a lot of books how big their porn collections are. You know your porn collections aren't going to win oscars don't you?!!

 

[F. King Daniel]

There are a couple of women with shaved heads in both ST'09 and ID. I suspect JJ and company have repurposed Illia's bald look not as a feature of her species, but as a 23rd century fashion trend. Or perhaps human women just want to look Deltan.

 

[T'Girl]

you would have an Asian and an African on the bridge of the Enterprise, without it actually being pointed out for the most part

That because the audience can simply look at them and see that they are Asian and Black.

Who is to say that there weren't homosexuals also on the bridge

Basically the script does. Unless they are written as gay, straight or something else, they have no sexuality In the case of Uhura's race you can tell just by looking at her. With a gay character you have to deliberately tell the audience through actions or dialog that they're gay, or they aren't.

Having someone sitting in the back of the bridge and saying maybe they're gay is like saying maybe they're left handed.

 

[Ithekro]

My first though was Deltan woman.

The question is, how does someone in Hollywood, place a character on screen to be homosexual, and make it so that it doesn't matter, without making them overtly homosexual to the point of stereotype to make the audience has to notice it....in the context of 1980s and 1990s prime time, non-comedy, not cable, television?

Most Hollywood images of homosexuality up to that point that I recall have been comedy and camp in nature. Especially in the 1970s.

Also recall this was the post-AIDs scare days and near the end of the Reagan administration. At least at first.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Even before Smithers officially came out on the Simpsons, John Waters did an episode where he played a version of himself who was Homer's gay friend.

That's the episode I'm referring to which ran in 1997. And comedies have it easier than dramas being socially progressive because people who disagree don't get as angry.

In 1997 both Simpsons and South Park had an episode with a gay character that the 'everyman' members of the cast had to learn not to be prejudiced against. Ten years later gay characters in both shows were just kinda there and normal. (And in the South Park universe the word f** was redefined in the dictionary to mean 'An inconsiderate motorcycle driver'). But in 1997, TV only really addressed homosexuality in a satirical/protesting context.

I suppose there were Roseanne and Ellen, but Roseanne focused on ansillary characters and Roseanne's mother didn't come out until the last season, and Ellen started going way down in ratings after she came out, proving in 1995 you couldn't have a gay character without a media shitstorm. And Billy Crystal played a gay guy on Soap in the 70s, but again, a comedy. Will & Grace debuted in 1998.

A world where homosexuality isn't a big deal doesn't imply that everybody is bisexual or gender fluid. It does imply that if somebody finds themselves attracted to a member of the same sex for the first time, it doesn't feel like a major life event or major change in personal identity. You just date who you're attracted to, whether they be your own gender or the other one. And probably also implies that people just try to be themselves instead of pigeonholing their gender identity one way or the other.

Anyway, in The Host, the Trill host is clearly a slave rather than a blended personality, and I wonder if Beverly wasn't also worried that every time she had sex with her she'd be raping the host.

And Dax was clearly bisexual as was Garak, so there has been an LGBT character in Trek.

 

[BillJ]

Ellen was a comedy. It just wasn't a very good show.

 

[T'Girl]

It would be even more wrong to 'force' a gay character into the show and make that character constantly remind us that he is gay.

The same way we we're constantly remind of Riker's heterosexuality?

... and nobody else on the crew gives a flying fuck about it.

The episode In Theory, when Data began a relationship with Lt. Jenna D'Sora, details of her previous relationship were know to Data's friends. A crewmember's sexuality and sex life in the enclosed environment of a ship would likely be the subject of health gossip.

I remember some commentary on Geordie's (lack of) sex life.

... that did look like she wasnt exactly a heterosexual.

What makes you think that person is a "she?" Just a young man trying something different.

Both Spock and Sulu used blue eye shadow at one point.

 

[junkdata]

One things about Star Trek and at least ethnic groups, is that, at least in the 60s, you would have an Asian and an African on the bridge of the Enterprise, without it actually being pointed out for the most part. There were their as equals doing their job. Who is to say that there weren't homosexuals also on the bridge, doing there job. It is just there sexuality didn't come up, or they were not of the flamboyant types.

Is it about sexuality or about lifestyle? You wouldn't normally see flamboyant character types in a military setting or a serious setting like the bridge of a starship, would you? The stereotype "flaming homosexual" wouldn't be a standard type anymore, would it? After centuries of acceptance? There would be no reason for any extra social or cultural styles to be added to a character, when they aren't, in most cases, for the likes of Uhura and Sulu.

Sulu being Asian was almost never brought up. Uhura being African only came up, I think, twice were it had any meaning. Once when they encountered Abraham Lincoln, and then when she was being reeducated, her having learned Swahili first, then English. Chekov's Russian was done for laughs. Scott's accent was used just to be used. In The Next Generation Worf's Klingon was pushed a lot. Data being a android was pushed a lot. La'Forge being blind came up from time to time, but aside from his external appliance, most of the time it wasn't a issue unless the plot needed either his VISOR for reasons, or to make a situation.

If in the future straight and gay exist side by side in term of societial acceptance, why are only heteros depicted?

In universe reason?

Percentage of the population being homosexual or at least not heterosexual is what?

5-10 pc of the population is gay.

In all the thousands of star trek people, hook ups and couples, we havent seen two dudes holding hands in the back ground, and nothing but a spot of lipstick lesbianism and what? A plot conception that can be seen as somehow analogous to transgender people on earth.

The wire had omar little.

ST has beverly crushers relationship with a dude that turned into a dudette and then got rejected.

I see a lot of shows from America get lit up with hate on IMDB for having gay characters. Presumably things are worse in other non english speaking nations. In europe though its no big thing in most places, and frankly, star trek was a big enough franchise to include incidental homosexuality.

"its a family show waaaah"

Its the twenty first century, and this is a show about the future. Where are all the gays? Do the conservatives believe medicine eradicated homosexuality? Is that what star trek is saying?

All thats really happening, is a mob mentality is being allowed to trump freedom of association, and accurate representation on television.

Star trek lost viewing figures?

You know why? No one wants to watch a "boring and safe" show on space. When it started it was revolutionary, not boring.

We are now post HBO and post 9/11. We are post "post-9/11". we are post iraq and afghan. We are post NSA and almost post global recession. We are pretty close to being post NASA, with all the budget cuts. We are post black president and post DADT and post any decent series for almost 20 years.

How about we get a grown up star trek and not one aimed at prudes and gender tyrants.