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Size of the Federation and Starfleet

I always thought Starfleet should be huge in terms of personnel and ships. I used some numbers that seem rather reasonable.

150 member worlds (most likely not counting colonized moons in the star system), I would think an average 1 billion per planet (Earth was 6 billion and a number of 40 billion was given as deaths in Yesterday's Enterprise so I think 1 billion could be reasonable). That's 150 billion people in the federation. From what I understand, currently the USA military is about 1% of the population. So again let's assume only 1% of Federation Citizens are active members of Starfleet. That will leave us with an active force of 1.5 billion. That should fill up many starbases, starships, cargo ships, land forces, planetary defense forces. Even if it .5% of the population that's one hell of a big force of 750 million people that could man 7,500,000 GCS's.

I'm waiting for the inevitable onslaught of attacks against my numbers. Just so you know, I will read your reasons against my numbers, but this is just a theory of mine that seems reasonable. The total number of Federation citizens could be much lower, but with all species living longer lives with a longer set of productive years due to the medical advances of the time, I don't think 1 billion per planet is unreasonable.

From where the sun now stands, I will post in this thread no more.
 
I always thought Starfleet should be huge in terms of personnel and ships. I used some numbers that seem rather reasonable.

150 member worlds (most likely not counting colonized moons in the star system), I would think an average 1 billion per planet (Earth was 6 billion and a number of 40 billion was given as deaths in Yesterday's Enterprise so I think 1 billion could be reasonable). That's 150 billion people in the federation. From what I understand, currently the USA military is about 1% of the population. So again let's assume only 1% of Federation Citizens are active members of Starfleet. That will leave us with an active force of 1.5 billion. That should fill up many starbases, starships, cargo ships, land forces, planetary defense forces. Even if it .5% of the population that's one hell of a big force of 750 million people that could man 7,500,000 GCS's.

I'm waiting for the inevitable onslaught of attacks against my numbers. Just so you know, I will read your reasons against my numbers, but this is just a theory of mine that seems reasonable. The total number of Federation citizens could be much lower, but with all species living longer lives with a longer set of productive years due to the medical advances of the time, I don't think 1 billion per planet is unreasonable.

From where the sun now stands, I will post in this thread no more.

Good idea, but I think it's behind the times. Not only is Starfleet not just military, but also the nature of warfare is different in the future. I would imagine that the ratio of military/civilian is higher now than during the Civil War. Progressively less ground troops will probably be needed in the future. Progressively more automation and so forth.
So, Starfleet would probably need far fewer personnel to conduct warfare as a percentage of citizens than we have now. But Starfleet also has much more to it, with all of the terraforming, and exploratory and diplomatic etc. missions. Any figure based on now of how an military on Earth functions just is not equivalent with Starfleet several hundred years from now.
 
From what I understand, currently the USA military is about 1% of the population. So again let's assume only 1% of Federation Citizens are active members of Starfleet.

NASA would make more sense to me as a comparison. Or, to widen the focus, the percentage of the world population representing people who actively work in a space program would be what? I imagine it's very small.
 
From what I understand, currently the USA military is about 1% of the population. So again let's assume only 1% of Federation Citizens are active members of Starfleet.

NASA would make more sense to me as a comparison. Or, to widen the focus, the percentage of the world population representing people who actively work in a space program would be what? I imagine it's very small.

Well again, only if you assume Starfleet is the only show in town these numbers would be valid. But apart from the convenient excuse "it's a show that aired on Earth" for why Starfleet seems to be dominated by humans, a better reason is that Starfleet is just the most popular spot for deep space scientific research and really does draw from only 1% of Earth's population with maybe a few million alien transfers from other Federation worlds. Other Federation members almost certainly have their own fleets with their own specialties, focussing on entirely different aspects of their existence based on their own cultural heritage. After all, we are constantly being bombarded with this spiel about how human nature is the nature of explorers and inquisitors; that's all well and good, but the same could hardly be said for the Vulcans or the Andorians or the Tellarites or even the Betazoid. Some races would have no need for space craft at all, others--aquatic life forms, for example--might design their starfleets to seek out new beaches and new types of plankton, to boldly surf where no porpoise has surfed before.

All respect to Rodenberry, but the idea of a unitary multi-cultural fleet united under one roof is just a tiny bit arrogant and more than a little species-centric. Unless humans conquered and dominated all 150 of those races socially, morally, economically and politically, there is NO WAY they have all assimilated their space/science/military forces into Starfleet.
 
Inclussion into the Federation does not mean that a culture has been assimilated by any stretch of the imagination. It's like a more useful and meaningful UN- were member nations participate in missions while all sporting the blue beret... I don't want to use today's ideas like the UN as a perfect comparison, (because it borders on a joke of an organisation), but the concept applies.

Look at the Klingon's in an early episode of TNG- they became members of the Federation to such an extent, that they sported Starfleet's banner beside theirs. Sure, it was only in one episode, but the symbollism expressing the unity of to opposing forces, was fantastic and truly expressed what Star Trek was about.

In a sense, the Federation had expanded into the Klingon Empire. They would have member seats, and operational control of their own space, as I'm sure other members have operational control over their territory...

The Federation wasn't supposed to be about one controlling body- it was supposed to be a a giant UN in a sense. Starfleet would grow with each new member, and shrink when a member left.

I agree that there would be pockets of non-member space within the Federation, but in the spirit of what it stood for, I imagine they would respect their space and culture.

Over the evolution of the Federation, it obviously grew, learned from it's interference with other species, and became a place that offered security, members or not.

I just watched "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" (a really cool episode- though I hate time travel) and when Captain Christopher remarks that it must have taken a lot of resources to built the Enterprise, Kirk unequivocally states (to emphasise the resources required) that there are only 12 in all of Starfleet.

To me, that suggests a big organisation with not nearly the amount of ships they build up to by TNG. And I'm okay with a lot of smaller ships- probably a lot were around the same size and style as in Enterprise- all ending that era's design, being replaced with more contemporary advanced designs based on the Constitution Class technology. We wouldn't have very many Miranda types either- resouces obviously didn't allow for quick construction (as implied by Kirk) and Miranda's have near the volume as Constution types.

My point, I suppose, after reading the last two pages, (I've been working odd hours and missed a lot of the thread), is that I maintain that Starfleet must have grown with the Federation. Small at first, but getting larger as it expanded into non-occupied territories and gathered more resources, and as it gained more members willing to contribute to an organisation that shared it's wealth.

But as big as Starfleet got by TNG, the volume of the Federation is so HUGE, it's hard to wrap our heads around it. Space is Big. Bigger then we can truly appreciate without being up there. We just don't have anything really to compare it to here on Earth. 10000 ships in the Federation could fly forever and never meet- but they did because they worked along established lanes of flight.

I'm babbling- sorry. I'll stop...

For now.
 
Look at the Klingon's in an early episode of TNG- they became members of the Federation to such an extent, that they sported Starfleet's banner beside theirs. Sure, it was only in one episode, but the symbollism expressing the unity of to opposing forces, was fantastic and truly expressed what Star Trek was about.
Eh?

Are you thinking of this?

2hqgs48.jpg


I don't think this is indicative of Federation membership. I think each ship was inserting its own banner, and the Klingon Captain probably saw them on either side of Picard on his viewscreen as well. I'm not sure why the Federation logo would appear with Klingon writing beneath it, though. (edit: maybe the Enterprise was just being polite by translating "United Federation of Planets" into Klingon as a subtitle)
 
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Kitsune,

Thanks for the image! To be fair, I should have clarified- when I said they became members of the Federation (to such an extent), I meant it as something tentative. But there would be no reason for them to have that image on their ship (as it's clearly behind him), other then either they were in an alliance of sorts, or, it could have been a Klingon way of honouring their friendship- like flying a flag of the country you're sailing through...

But I do remember that image as clearly being behind the Klingon, so it would be an image they presented either permanently as part of their alliance, or temporarily as a sign of non-aggression. Either way, it was really neat to see. I liked that episode.

ON the other hand, maybe you're right, and it was something like a screen saver, and it was projected into the viewer by the Enterprise...
 
One might come up with various rationalizations for the presence of the UFP symbol on that single ship.

The plot function of the ship was to extradite a couple of prisoners. Perhaps the UFP sigil was there to remind Picard of the UFP/Klingon Empire extradition treaty? Or perhaps the presence of the sigil was akin to flying a flag of truce, necessary for Klingon ships that operate in UFP territory?

Or, since the early part of the episode took place in or near the Neutral Zone (supposedly the Romulan one, since we never heard of a TNG-era Klingon NZ), perhaps the rest of it did as well - and this cruiser was part of a Klingon force patrolling the UFP side of the RNZ under a special arrangement, symbolized by the twin sigils?

Timo Saloniemi
 
All respect to Rodenberry, but the idea of a unitary multi-cultural fleet united under one roof is just a tiny bit arrogant and more than a little species-centric. Unless humans conquered and dominated all 150 of those races socially, morally, economically and politically, there is NO WAY they have all assimilated their space/science/military forces into Starfleet.

Why do you say that? Does that opinion not show a bit of assumption on your part?

After all it is dependant on assuming that a unified military or exploratory arm is a bad thing. It just plain is not. It is not like in WW2 that British forces could go do their own thing without consulting SHAEF after D-Day, they reported to Eisenhower. There was no longer a British Command or US Command making the decisions, there was SHAEF, nothing else would work.

It seems likely part of the appeal of joining the Federation would be membership for their military of Starfleet. Doubtless there would immediately be a supply of ships and technology to boost defenses, and doubtless equivalnet ranks would be offered equivalent commissions in Starfleet. The CinC of an alien command might go from having absolute control over fifty ships to a say in the role of 20,000.

This process must also take a long time. Most new Federation members presumably fold into Starfleet gradually.

One thing Trek continually shows is that the Galaxy is a dangerous place. I'd rather sign my military up with Starfleet than risk the Klingons turning up and wiping it out.
 
I don't think we can take the abundance of humans on hero ships as an indication of most of Starfleet being human. The ships have to be set to a certain amount of artificial gravity, temperature, and atmosphere. It would make sense to put only species comfortable in that environment on the ship, plus a few from other species who feel they can stomach it. We saw, for example, an all-Vulcan ship in TOS. If you went on that ship, you'd probably find yourself in a high-gravity environment with a hellish temperature and low oxygen content compared to what you'd experience on Enterprise. Most Vulcans would probably rather be aboard that vessel than adapt like Spock or T'Pol (who we actually saw having to adjust, albeit only to human mannerisms and smell). The same thing is probably true for the Andorians, who prefer the cold. Likewise, if we were to have a marine species in Starfleet, they'd need a ship that was basically a fish tank. You wouldn't see them on the Enterprise, nor would you see a human there.

With the exceptions of a few elite people, it wouldn't be feasible to cross species on a ship. We simply follow human-dominated ships in Star Trek.
 
^^^

Indeed it is quite possible that many ships never leave their respective species locality - so unless we see a lot of episodes near Vulcan we will not see a Vulcan patrol ship, and the same for Andorians and so on.

This would also explain the commonality of human names on starships.
 
My point, I suppose, after reading the last two pages, (I've been working odd hours and missed a lot of the thread), is that I maintain that Starfleet must have grown with the Federation. Small at first, but getting larger as it expanded into non-occupied territories and gathered more resources, and as it gained more members willing to contribute to an organisation that shared it's wealth.

But as big as Starfleet got by TNG, the volume of the Federation is so HUGE, it's hard to wrap our heads around it. Space is Big. Bigger then we can truly appreciate without being up there. We just don't have anything really to compare it to here on Earth. 10000 ships in the Federation could fly forever and never meet- but they did because they worked along established lanes of flight.

I'm babbling- sorry. I'll stop...

For now.

There actually is a reasonably valid historical comparison for Starfleet: the U.S. Pacific Fleet during World War II, commanded by Chester Nimitz.

At its height, in the Spring of 1945, it assembled for Operation ICEBERG, the invasion of Okinawa. The "Big Blue Fleet" as it was called, assembled 1800 ships off Okinawa alone. The larger fleet I believe was closer to 5,000 vessels of all types, operating from Alaska down to Australia.

Starfleet is based on that organization, with a tip of the hat to the Royal Navy. I am partial to the ten to fifteen thousand ship number, given the advances in nanotechnology construction by that time in history, I see no problems with construction and affordability.

Turning out officers is a huge affair, however. There must be the equivalent of a ROTC program in that time period for universities such as Harvard or UCLA. However, only the Academy ringknockers get the best slots.
 
All respect to Rodenberry, but the idea of a unitary multi-cultural fleet united under one roof is just a tiny bit arrogant and more than a little species-centric. Unless humans conquered and dominated all 150 of those races socially, morally, economically and politically, there is NO WAY they have all assimilated their space/science/military forces into Starfleet.

Why do you say that? Does that opinion not show a bit of assumption on your part?

After all it is dependant on assuming that a unified military or exploratory arm is a bad thing.
No. It's dependent on every member of the Federation--different races from completely different worlds with completely different social and political histories and completely different moral and religious traditions--all addopting wholesale the Earth concept of military/exploratory missions, not to mention addopting Earth customs, Earth ranks heirarchies, Earth technology, Earth architecture and Earth atmosphere and gravity conditions for their own. That humans place a premium in galactic exploration is justifiable because we--being humans--know this about ourselves, but how in the world does one justify this assumption that the differing species on 150 different worlds would all think exactly like us? Hell, even humans didn't all think alike in the years before Trek time (meaning "Now") and to assume that all sentient life in the Federation would be pliable enough to submit to what is essentially a human-invented and human-centric worldview is more than a little arrogant.

Consider, for example, if the Klingons really WERE Federation members (some day they will be, so this is a pretty relevant question isn't it?). Klingon society and culture is so different from humans that the concept of exploration and warfare are fundamentally different. War, for Klingons, is an activity, not a situation; they think of mortal combat the way most humans think of sports, and their word for "exploration" probably has connotations similar to what humans would call "hunting." For this reason, the only Klingons who ever join Starfleet are Klingons who were RAISED BY HUMANS, and are therefore acculturated to the human way of doing things. Even minor differences between species can create a fairly large degree of friction (as a certain Benzite exchange officer found out the hard way) and these differences are not typically tolerated precisely for the reason that Starfleet expects its members to make themselves accustomed to the Human way of doing things. Even take the most extreme example: Worf gets chewed out by Picard for killing Duras, an action that, under the circumstances, no Klingon in the universe finds even slightly objectionable. And yet Picard shows his anger at Worf for not doing things the "Starfleet way," which is, by definition (and as frequently lampooned by his renegade counterparts) the "human way."

I just don't see 150 different alien worlds adopting the Human Way. I see Starfleet as an Earth organization that takes volunteers from anywhere and doesn't discriminate, but you have to learn to do things the Starfleet way first. Apparently they even take applicants from non-Federation worlds (the Ferengi, for example) which doesn't change the fact that most of these worlds have their OWN space forces with their own way of doing things. Even if by some miracle the Ferengi joined the Federation, their MERCHANT fleet would undoubtedly continue to operate independently and would never even consider being assimilated into Starfleet; after all, what the hell would Starfleet officers care about profit?

It seems likely part of the appeal of joining the Federation would be membership for their military of Starfleet.
I doubt that very much. Starfleet might protect them, sure, but in an egalitarian outfit like the Federation it makes no sense that one of the key perks of joining would be someone else's military administering your borders. That's not the "United Federation of Planets," that's the "Friendly and Polite Earth Empire."

One thing Trek continually shows is that the Galaxy is a dangerous place. I'd rather sign my military up with Starfleet than risk the Klingons turning up and wiping it out.
I'd rather have my own military funded by the Federation in a mutual defense program, and something tells me you won't find many heads of state on any world who would prefer otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would ever place the defense of their home planet in the hands of an alien government hundreds of light years away that they do not control and is not accountable to them... unless they don't have a choice, because that government actually conquered them and it is better to go along with them than face their wrath.

And what do you know? It turns out Starfleet really isn't all that good at protecting its members, since several key Federation worlds were actually captured by the Dominion during the war while the core worlds--Earth, Vulcan, Andor, etc--remained heavily defended with very large fleets of ships. This either happened because Starfleet just didn't care much about these "minor" worlds and focussed on defending more important members first, or it happened because Starfleet is primarily an Earth and Vulcan organization and whatever Betazed had for its own defense wasn't up to the job.

That one Federation world might make its resources at the disposal of all its neighbors makes perfect sense to me; what makes no sense is that all Federation worlds would be forced or even encouraged to accept the resources of that one world instead of their own. The Federation is supposed to be about freedom and self-determination, and nothing undermines self-determination more than the ability to defend ones self with ones own hands.

Here's a thought: when Worf was considering resigning from Starfleet, he thought about joining the Nybrite alliance. Want to bet the Nybrite Alliance is also a Federation member?
 
The suggestion was that the Nyberrite Alliance is very far from the Federation.

Starfleet isn't an Earth organization. It's supposed to be a unified force akin to the U.N. Peacekeepers or something, if perhaps somewhat better integrated. We get a lot of humans who aren't made up and Roman lettering on the hulls because it's an American TV show, not because Gene Roddenberry and the rest of its creative talents through its history were trying to convey some creepy subtext about hundreds of alien worlds being forced to submit to humankind in any particular way.

In retrospect, one positive thing about Enterprise is that it rather clearly showed humanity as sort of a junior partner in the early diplomatic relationships that led to the Federation, making itself useful primarily by bridging gaps between the others.
 
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No. It's dependent on every member of the Federation--different races from completely different worlds with completely different social and political histories and completely different moral and religious traditions--all addopting wholesale the Earth concept of military/exploratory missions,

No it isn't - that is what Starfleet DOES, and what any space-based military in the trekverse seems to do. Granted in the real world it makes little sense that aliens would be anything like us in any way, but in the trekverse they all are. They give a few explanations for it but basically its budget, however it is what you are left with. Most aliens are a lot like us really and so they play nice on the same ships in the same fleet.

not to mention addopting Earth customs, Earth ranks heirarchies, Earth technology, Earth architecture and Earth atmosphere and gravity conditions for their own.

Not necessarily - after all it is established on-screen that there are ships largely crewed by one species in Starfleet and it is never established that this is not the norm, explains our rather human hero crews rather neatly IMHO.

That humans place a premium in galactic exploration is justifiable because we--being humans--know this about ourselves, but how in the world does one justify this assumption that the differing species on 150 different worlds would all think exactly like us?

Well Trek fundamentally makes that assumption - all the races really just act like one or other aspect of humanity. How realistic is it that there is only ONE Klingon culture we see, or ONE Romulan culture, there are dozens here on Earth why not on those worlds? That is Star Trek for you though and its a natural compromise of trying to write a big highly-populated universe for TV and a TV budget.

Hell, even humans didn't all think alike in the years before Trek time (meaning "Now") and to assume that all sentient life in the Federation would be pliable enough to submit to what is essentially a human-invented and human-centric worldview is more than a little arrogant.

Well don't assume that then. Just because all the ships in the Federation capable of military operations are subordinate to Starfleet does not mean that they are all mixed-crewed or all submit to a human-centric worldview, it is just a necessity to win wars. Just as it is unlikely that the allies would have won WW2 had all three powers done their own thing without consulting each other there is no way that Starfleet would have beaten the Dominion without the resources and manpower of 150 worlds to throw at them.

Consider, for example, if the Klingons really WERE Federation members (some day they will be, so this is a pretty relevant question isn't it?). Klingon society and culture is so different from humans that the concept of exploration and warfare are fundamentally different. War, for Klingons, is an activity, not a situation; they think of mortal combat the way most humans think of sports, and their word for "exploration" probably has connotations similar to what humans would call "hunting." For this reason, the only Klingons who ever join Starfleet are Klingons who were RAISED BY HUMANS,

Not really fair - Worf was no less a Klingon than Martok, and no less a warrior. He just understood humanity better as he had lived among them. Klingons would never join the Federation while the majority of their population considered them big softies, but after fighting alongside them in the Dominion War would believe them honourable warriors, same goes for Vulcans, Andorians and Betazoids presumably.

There seem to be plenty of opportunities for an honourable death in Starfleet, there is no reason Klingons would not join on that basis.

Even minor differences between species can create a fairly large degree of friction (as a certain Benzite exchange officer found out the hard way) and these differences are not typically tolerated precisely for the reason that Starfleet expects its members to make themselves accustomed to the Human way of doing things.

Well one would assume there is actually not a human but a Starfleet way of doing things, and that like joining any other large organisation yes you have to adapt to that. That said I imagine there are significant regional differences and where the Enterprise is a human-centric largely human crewed version one would imagine that the USS T'Kumbra is more Vulcan-centric.

It is like saying the US army and Chinese Army could not work together - they undoubtedly could, the US and British armies have managed it for almost 100 years and the cultures are incredibly different.

Even take the most extreme example: Worf gets chewed out by Picard for killing Duras, an action that, under the circumstances, no Klingon in the universe finds even slightly objectionable. And yet Picard shows his anger at Worf for not doing things the "Starfleet way," which is, by definition (and as frequently lampooned by his renegade counterparts) the "human way."

Well Picard has no choice does he? Worf knows that as a Starfleet officer killing foreign dignitaries is a bit off. That is not the human way specifically its a bit logical. He was wearing a Starfleet uniform at the time and it could be used by some Klingons as an excuse for attacking Federation planets. The Klingons might pretend to be honourable but they can be sleazy political animals as much as humans.

Basically Picard gave him a bollocking he probably could see coming, but all he got was a slapped wrist.

I just don't see 150 different alien worlds adopting the Human Way. I see Starfleet as an Earth organization that takes volunteers from anywhere and doesn't discriminate, but you have to learn to do things the Starfleet way first.

It probably was more a core organisation in Kirk's time but does not seem this way in the 24th Century. I rather see it as a much more egalitarian operation, where technology and support is provided in exchange for a unified command. There might well be local militias that provide local defense but it makes more sense to exchange officers etc along the lines of any large organisation.

There are two ways to see big organisations, either as mushed massive blobs which absorb everything and return an unimaginative straight down the middle response or as large collaborative efforts.

If race X joins the Federation they get an ambassador, they get votes in the presidential election and they get their military absorbed into Starfleet, so presumably get an allocation of new-and-used starships and seats on the Admiralty board, or whatever Starfleet has.

They therefore get a strong say from Day One, why assume Starfleet comes along and says "Right sunshine, drop your uniqueness we claim to value and do things our way"? It is not very Trek is it?

The WHOLE POINT of Star Trek's philosophy is that although we are diverse we can work together and that diversity makes us stronger. A quite enlightened belief from a show made in a nation that in some places still features maps with the USA in the middle and nothing else except big blue text saying "Here There Be Dragons..."

I doubt that very much. Starfleet might protect them, sure, but in an egalitarian outfit like the Federation it makes no sense that one of the key perks of joining would be someone else's military administering your borders. That's not the "United Federation of Planets," that's the "Friendly and Polite Earth Empire."

Why not if that organisation are the good guys and you have a say in how they are run and how they behave? Europe has been defended by NATO for years, only the French have ever had a problem with it.

I'd rather have my own military funded by the Federation in a mutual defense program, and something tells me you won't find many heads of state on any world who would prefer otherwise. Nobody in their right mind would ever place the defense of their home planet in the hands of an alien government hundreds of light years away that they do not control and is not accountable to them... unless they don't have a choice, because that government actually conquered them and it is better to go along with them than face their wrath.

That is 21st century human belief - we know races in the 24th Century are different.

Besides if you think all these things it is highly unlikely your "race" would join the Federation, maybe ally and trade with it but not JOIN it.

And what do you know? It turns out Starfleet really isn't all that good at protecting its members, since several key Federation worlds were actually captured by the Dominion during the war while the core worlds--Earth, Vulcan, Andor, etc--remained heavily defended with very large fleets of ships. This either happened because Starfleet just didn't care much about these "minor" worlds and focussed on defending more important members first, or it happened because Starfleet is primarily an Earth and Vulcan organization and whatever Betazed had for its own defense wasn't up to the job.

Betazed WAS defended by a large fleet, it was outmanoeuvered. In a War with a major power you will take heavy losses. If Starfleet had managed to defend every single world then the war would have ended pretty quickly with an embarassed massive Dominion fleet retreating with it's tail between it's legs - would not make great TV would it?

nothing undermines self-determination more than the ability to defend ones self with ones own hands.

21st century attitude - and also something completely ridiculous in the 21st century as only alliances of centrally commanded military powers have proven effective and destroying aggression on Earth in the last century.

Here's a thought: when Worf was considering resigning from Starfleet, he thought about joining the Nybrite alliance. Want to bet the Nybrite Alliance is also a Federation member?

I'd say not - I'd say it is a loose alliance of planets friendly to the Federation somewhere very distant from DS9.

I have never seen ANY on-screen evidence that suggests that Starfleet is not a massive organisation of 15,000 odd starships responsible primarily for the defense of the Federation. I also agree with the novels conjecture that large portions of a planet's military are absorbed into Starfleet when a planet joins.

That said there are doubtless local forces that remain independent for largely local purposes. The Vulcans have small ships that obviously serve some purpose (in "Unification") but are also completely integrated into Starfleet as of the 24th century (we see so many of them).
 
Out of curiosity, RAMA, what other parameters besides onscreen appearance did you use to define the numbers? It's a very intriguing list.


I think trying to figure out fleet numbers by the size of UFP space is a fools errand. First, the UFP doesn't have the ability to patrol all of their space even if they wanted to. Space is just too vast. Second, the numbers I used in particular were for the Dominion War...the fleets would've been distributed differently, reserves would have been called up, and construction accelerated.

I also took into account the enemy threats: the UFP fleets would have to offer SOME threat to the Dominion, and with a fleet fo 30,000 plus, the outnumbered Starfleet would still have to deploy a formidable force.

I noticed that the largest UFP force was 600 ships..and that was a number given for a fleet that was supposedly not at full strength. I therefore came up with a number of 700 ships per fleet.

RAMA
 
I have never seen ANY on-screen evidence that suggests that Starfleet is not a massive organisation of 15,000 odd starships responsible primarily for the defense of the Federation. I also agree with the novels conjecture that large portions of a planet's military are absorbed into Starfleet when a planet joins.

I would have to say that this obviously changed for the sake of telling a war story. Fans always assumed there HAD to be a much larger fleet, DS9 finally made it true out of necessity.

RAMA
 
Interesting list, Rama, thanks for the information.

Little heavy in the Ambassadors, though.:)


My favorite ship!

UFP FLEET STRENGTH:
_____________________________________________

Class:.........................Total in Service......Destroyed *
_____________________________________________

ESCORTS:

Defiant............................................57....................3
Steamrunner..................................709..................92
Springfield...................................1255................147
Rapier.............................................97..................18

RAMA said:
The ship classes are all "official".

Sorry for asking this so long after the list was posted, but what exactly is the Rapier class? I can't seem to find a reference to this one anywhere.

Thanks...

Its the name I gave to the seen but unamed Excelsior study model ship in BOBW:

excelsior-4nacelles-ben.gif


Actually it was a mistake that no one else caught, but I like my answer and I am sticking with it.:hugegrin:

RAMA
 
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