Size and scope of Starfleet

[Crazy Eddie]

What is there to explain? A Pegasus class hydrofoil is still a fully commissioned naval vessel, despite being the size of Rupert Murdoch's smallest yacht. If you had to build up a fighting force in a hell of a hurry, you might take a carrier battlegroup, stick a bunch of frigates in front of it and fill in the gaps with fifty Pegasus boats. Not alot of weight, but plenty of missiles in that little flotilla.

 

[Timo]

There's no known rule that says "NCC=starship", AFAIK.

And there's only one known case of anybody referring to a runabout as a starship, I think. In "Vortex", Sisko hails a Gamma Quadrant culture with "This is the Federation starship Rio Grande". I guess we can forgive him, though, for attempting to sound more impressive than the facts would allow. He was trying to do diplomacy with rulers whose subject had just committed murder, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

To be fair, all runabouts are given "U.S.S." designations and invididual hull registries like starships. They seem to be able to do everything their larger counterparts can except on a smaller scale (including living accommodations for a small crew). To that extent, runabouts might be considered "ultra-light" starships, especially if they have a substantially longer range than a shuttlecraft...

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I love the way runabouts look and the whole concept. I dont' really think they are considered starships. Could be used in fleet actions like missile boats though

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There's no known rule that says "NCC=starship", AFAIK.

And there's only one known case of anybody referring to a runabout as a starship, I think. In "Vortex", Sisko hails a Gamma Quadrant culture with "This is the Federation starship Rio Grande". I guess we can forgive him, though, for attempting to sound more impressive than the facts would allow. He was trying to do diplomacy with rulers whose subject had just committed murder, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

In his log entry in "Emissary" I believe he mentions the Enterprise delivering "three runabout-class starships."

 

[Timo]

Ah, I believe the word used there is "vessels". Not runabout class craft, to be sure, but not runabout class starships, either.

One wonders if there's any direct evidence of a NCC-registered vessel or craft that wouldn't be a starship - that is, a vessel that is explicitly stated to be a non-starship. In ST4:TVH, it was stated that a number of starships and a number of lesser vessels were neutralized by the Whale Probe; would be interesting to know what those lesser vessels were.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not that it matters much, since those "lesser vessels" would still be "ships" even if not STARships in a fleet action and probably counted as such.

 

[USS Jack Riley]

Ah, I believe the word used there is "vessels". Not runabout class craft, to be sure, but not runabout class starships, either.

One wonders if there's any direct evidence of a NCC-registered vessel or craft that wouldn't be a starship - that is, a vessel that is explicitly stated to be a non-starship. In ST4:TVH, it was stated that a number of starships and a number of lesser vessels were neutralized by the Whale Probe; would be interesting to know what those lesser vessels were.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo - This could be the difference between "boats" and "ships" in the US Navy. I don't know about other navies, but the Navy refers to some vessels as boats (frigates, subs, etc.) and others as ships (carriers, cruisers, etc.). I can't remember the difference between the 2, though. It was either size or the fact that boats can dock without the assistance of a tug (except for subs, which do require tugs, but they are a different matter all together). I am sure some Navy personnel or Marines on the board can explain the reason for the difference.

Another option is that the "lesser craft" refer to the vessels shuttling people between ships. When the Whale Probe shuts down Space dock, for example, we see the same type of vessel, basically a small shuttle that is probably for internal use only, that the Enterprise crew use for the reveal of the Enterprise - A.

YMMV

 

[Vance]

Well, in naval parlance, a 'boat' is anything with one fulldeck, while 'ships' have multiple decks. So a patrol boat has the 'main deck' and maybe a small bit of storage or cots (but not a full deck). A patrol ship would have the 'main deck' and a full 'secondary deck' for the same things. Keep in mind, though, this is colloqiualism.

For Trek, the difference between 'spaceship' and 'starship' is a bit murkier. It would imply that 'spaceships' didn't go from star to star, but they do (Woden, Beagle, et al). The difference has never really been explained, and it gets more and more murkier as later shows seem to call everything a starship.

 

[Timo]

I don't think the expression "spaceship" has been used for warp-driven vessels, actually. The Woden wasn't a "spaceship" but a "vessel", a "freighter" and a "robot ship". The Beagle wasn't a "spaceship", either, but a "survey vessel" and a "Class IV stardrive vessel". Only the ignorant native Claudius used the expression "spaceship", and Merrick had to point out that the expression was incorrect in the case of Kirk's ship. He never indicated it would be correct in case of his own ship, or any other ship for that matter.

For Archer, every ship he encountered was a starship. In TOS, starships tended to be mightier than other ships. These two things are not at odds with each other at all - because Archer did encounter only ships mightier than the puny Earthling norm. It would be quite comparable to a Chilean a century ago sailing out on his nation's first battleship, and writing home about encounter with battleship after foreign battleship, as the international waters would indeed be littered by ships meeting the definition of battleship.

In TNG, every ship sailing the stars does seem to be a starship again, though, and there I'd see a subtle change in terminology.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

Point, Timo, that Merrick explicitly said that his ship was not a Starship, and that he was not a Starship Captain while Kirk obviously was. In TOS, Starships were special... in later productions, they would apparently call a Soyuz rocket a "Starship"

 

[EmperorTiberius]

It is worth mentioning that in "Peak Performance" the Ferengi officer says:

"There is another Federation ship closing.....a Starship" After which the damon orders full shield and retreat.

Starship could refer to a capital ship or may be even a battleship?

 

[Praetor]

A couple of thoughts. First, from what we see it seems definite that a "Starship" in Kirk's time was rarer than in Picard's. Two, I think it's certain that there are definite, specific criteria that define a Starship as a Starship and not just any ole "vessel" in both periods.

Now, those criteria may be broad and have various qualifying aspects like range, power output, and so on, or could be something as simple as armament type, or having armaments at all.

 

[Timo]

"There is another Federation ship closing.....a Starship" After which the damon orders full shield and retreat. Starship could refer to a capital ship or may be even a battleship?

Or then simply to any military vessel, from fuel barge to planetsplitter.

After all, "Federation ship" may be civilian or military, so the Ferengi would further have to specify "Federation warship" or "Starfleet vessel" in order to convey the urgency of the situation to his superior. So quite probably "a Starship" is synonym to those, and probably even an accepted official synonym - whereas Starfleet might take objection to its Galaxies or Akiras being called "warships" outright.

Have we ever heard a civilian (that is, not government) vessel being addressed as "starship"? And I don't mean SS prefix, but actual, spelled-out "starship".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

whereas Starfleet might take objection to its Galaxies or Akiras being called "warships" outright.

This is probably the best explanation - "starship" means what we would perceive as "warship".

After all we hear a lot about US warships on humanitarian missions, and they are still called "warships" (because that's what they are) even when their mission is peaceful or downright charitable.

Starfleet probably has diplomatic problems with its slightly provocative strategy of turning up in a massive heavily-armed ship saying "hi we are cuddly and nice" and expecting everyone to believe them. Using the term "warship" might make this worse!

 

[Praetor]

Say, I like that too.

 

[MyClone]

Agreed -- that is an elegant solution.

 

[BK613]

whereas Starfleet might take objection to its Galaxies or Akiras being called "warships" outright.

This is probably the best explanation - "starship" means what we would perceive as "warship".

I disagree.Warships are vessels that have a primary, wartime purpose (ASW etc) and are built around weapon systems that support that purpose. And there isn't any system included on a warship that doesn't ultimately support that wartime purpose.
Starships are not built around weapon systems, they include many, many systems that have nothing to do with war and their primary purpose is not to wage war. "Our missions are peaceful, our weapons defensive."
We have no 20th/21st century equivalent to a starship (although if I had to choose, I would pick Coast Guard cutter over battleship or carrier).

After all we hear a lot about US warships on humanitarian missions, and they are still called "warships" (because that's what they are) even when their mission is peaceful or downright charitable.

Warships occasionally called upon to make peaceful gestures are not the same as "peaceships" occasionally called upon to make war. lol

 

[USS KG5]

I disagree.Warships are vessels that have a primary, wartime purpose (ASW etc) and are built around weapon systems that support that purpose. And there isn't any system included on a warship that doesn't ultimately support that wartime purpose.

That is a little simplistic. Warships have many systems with a dual-purpose and although many are built with a particular purpose in "war" defined, post cold war the roles of military and police are blurring significantly.

Put simply the definition of "warship" is bound to be as blurred as the definition of "war" is becoming.

Starships are not built around weapon systems, they include many, many systems that have nothing to do with war and their primary purpose is not to wage war. "Our missions are peaceful, our weapons defensive."

Yeah well if you believe that you will believe anything.

Starfleet are only peaceful in the same way that the US military is peaceful now - they are all cuddles until someone fraks with them, then the teeth come out.

Before you pull the science card, remember that all the great explorers and scientists sailed on what were essentially warships, though not necessarily highly-rated ones. Darwin for example may not have rated a 74, but Beagle was a 10-gun Sloop probably of the same rate as an Oberth would be comparable to her peers.

As for something like the Galaxy class, Starfleet sailing into your territory with a massive ship-of-the-line that had lots of scientists aboard and was very comfortable would be just as antagonistic as sailing in with a Klingon Attack Cruiser.

Remember ST3 - the Klingons consider the Enterprise a "Federation Battle Cruiser" that has ten-times the armament of their "Scout Class" Bird-Of-Prey. Sounds like a warship to me.

Warships occasionally called upon to make peaceful gestures are not the same as "peaceships" occasionally called upon to make war. lol

Starfleet is deliberately portrayed as hypocritical over their ships in DS9 and rightly so. They even have the gall to build a balls-out warship so heavily armed it can almost blow itself to bits firing and call it an "escort"!

Ironically this was fairly common in battleships of our world as well. I read an account by someone who sailed across the atlantic on Rodney shortly after she had engaged Bismarck - her decks were ripped to pieces by the pummelling of the 16-inch guns!

 

[Timo]

...Even more ironically, an "escort vessel" would probably be the type most likely to be torn apart by her own guns. Many of those were converted civilian designs in both world wars, fundamentally unsuited for the mounting of the surplus guns they received. And an unspaceworthy escort like the Defiant would be a nice match for the basically unseaworthy dedicated escorts like Flower in WWII.

Getting back to semantics, wouldn't "Starship" be a most natural abbreviation of "Starfleet ship"? This may not have been the original in-universe meaning of the term, but it could well be its in-universe meaning in the 24th century.

Timo Saloniemi