Six years since the last missing episode find...

[Candlelight]

Getting a bit sad now isn't it. We normally have something every few years, but it seems to have gone a bit dry.

Other than 90" of The Space Pirates, 20" of Power of the Daleks and 3 frames of Evil of the Daleks, it's not been much going on.

 

[Winterwind]

I'm not holding out much hope for any further finds.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Damn, has it really been that long? That's rather depressing.

I keep hoping Power of the Daleks, The Faceless Ones, The Abominable Snowmen, or The Web of Fear will turn up. Doesn't seem very likely.

 

[Sci]

Damn, has it really been that long? The Abominable Snowmen

Do they grab the Doctor, declare him a cute little pink Time Lord, and announce that they will hug him and pet him and squeeze him and call him George?

 

[Bones2]

Damn, has it really been that long? The Abominable Snowmen

Do they grab the Doctor, declare him a cute little pink Time Lord, and announce that they will hug him and pet him and squeeze him and call him George?

So you're the one with the missing tapes then...

 

[Timby]

Mugabe!

 

[diankra]

It's inevitable that it'll slow down - in the early 1980s, it seemed as if they came regularly two or three times a year, but they'd only started looking a few years before.
After 1984, it slowed - 2 episodes in 1986 (IIRC), The four Ice Warriors episodes in 1988, then nothing until Tomb in 1992 (though in the meantime, all the soundtracks were located - in the '80s, some Hartnells still seemed to be missing even on audio).
Then a seven year gap until The Lion turned up, and another five before Day of Armageddon.
The reality is, we'll be very lucky if anything turns up now, after 30 years of searching for stuff that had only been missing for 6/7 years when the search began. But you never know. We might be really lucky and there will be a whole stack of battered film cans in some uncatalogued store.

What could be useful would be for Ian Levine to declare that he doesn't think any more missing episodes will ever be found. Last time he did that, The Lion turned up within the month...

 

[knine]

I know they've done animations for some of the lost episodes, and they have all the audios... have they ever entertained the idea of refilming lost episodes with a new cast?

 

[23skidoo]

Yeah, I'm afraid it'll be slim pickings for awhile. I would imagine all broadcaster options have been exhausted by now.

However as I learned watching the documentary on the Lost in Time DVD set you never know when a lost episode may turn up. One collector found a bunch of episodes in a "car boot sale".

There's also always a chance that just as fans recorded all the episodes on audio tape -- allowing us to at least hear the missing episodes and allowing BBC Video to complete The Invasion by animating two (with hopes for more in the future), and other fans created vidsnaps, maybe someone with an 8mm or even 16mm camera or a kinescope-like set up made films off their TV screens back in those pre-VCR days. It's going to sound morbid, but remembering we're now thinking 40-45 years ago, it's not out of the range of possibility that estate sales might still turn up material like this if anyone bothered to keep it. Apparently some lost episodes were in circulation as recently as the early 1970s in some countries, opening up the remote possibility someone with an early VCR might have recorded them. I know they existed at least in 1975 because I saw my very first videotape at school back when the tape cartridges were huge, and those large-format tapes are known to have longer lifespans than VHS did, witness the fact original video still exists from the 1950s and early 60s of stuff like the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and the videotapes Twilight Zone episodes (no VidFire processing needed).

All told, though I think the Doctor Who fans and restorers have to be commended for their diligence so far. They've recovered many complete stories over the years -- including several as late as Jon Pertwee's final season -- and have found bits of others like The Crusade so that we can at least get a glimpse of what it's like. I wish other shows had the same luck. The Avengers is still missing almost all of its first season, except for two complete episodes (one of which doesn't even feature Steed) and the first 20-minutes of the debut episode, all of which were found a few years ago. I understand that Z Cars has been decimated, and a number of shows are lost completely. We've been lucky with DW.

Alex

 

[diankra]

There's also always a chance that just as fans recorded all the episodes on audio tape -- allowing us to at least hear the missing episodes and allowing BBC Video to complete The Invasion by animating two (with hopes for more in the future), and other fans created vidsnaps, maybe someone with an 8mm or even 16mm camera or a kinescope-like set up made films off their TV screens back in those pre-VCR days.

Clips like that have been found (and are on Lost in Time), but given how short a home cine reel was then (and how expensive they were compared with a kid's pocket money), clips seem likely to be all that anyone shot.

It's going to sound morbid, but remembering we're now thinking 40-45 years ago, it's not out of the range of possibility that estate sales might still turn up material like this if anyone bothered to keep it. Apparently some lost episodes were in circulation as recently as the early 1970s in some countries, opening up the remote possibility someone with an early VCR might have recorded them. I know they existed at least in 1975 because I saw my very first videotape at school back when the tape cartridges were huge, and those large-format tapes are known to have longer lifespans than VHS did, witness the fact original video still exists from the 1950s and early 60s of stuff like the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and the videotapes Twilight Zone episodes (no VidFire processing needed).

One 1960s episode was found on an early home video recorder a few years back, but unfortunately it was The Space Pirates 2 (which already existed). Anecdotally, some schools apparently had video recorders in the mid 1960s and recorded the Hartnell historicals to show as primary school history lessons, but if any of those tapes weren't reused, they haven't turned up since those stories started going around 25 years back.

All told, though I think the Doctor Who fans and restorers have to be commended for their diligence so far. They've recovered many complete stories over the years -- including several as late as Jon Pertwee's final season -- and have found bits of others like The Crusade so that we can at least get a glimpse of what it's like. I wish other shows had the same luck. The Avengers is still missing almost all of its first season, except for two complete episodes (one of which doesn't even feature Steed) and the first 20-minutes of the debut episode, all of which were found a few years ago. I understand that Z Cars has been decimated, and a number of shows are lost completely. We've been lucky with DW.

Alex

For a real horror story, check out Dixon of Dock Green, which ran for 22 seasons from 1955 to 1976 (with seasons 10 to 22 overlapping with Doctor Who). The survival statistics are...
Season 1 (1955): 0/6; 2 (1956): 1/13; 3 (1957): 5/13; 4 (1957): 0/29; 5 (1958): 0/27; 6 (1959): 0/30; 7 (1960): 1/29; 8 (1961): 0/26; 9 (1962): 3/38; 10 (1963): 0/26; 11 (1964): 0/26; 12 (1965): 0/26; 13 (1966): Parts of 4 episodes out of 13; 14 (1967): 1/20, plus parts of 5 more; 15 (1968)parts of 3/16; 15 (1969): 0/17; 17 (1970): 1/17; 18 (1971): 2/13; 19 (1972): 0/14; 20 (1973): 4/17; 21 (1975)4/13; 22 (1976): 8/8.

Or to translate that across, if Doctor Who had survived as badly as Dixon, then there'd be one complete Hartnell episode; 1 complete Troughton episode; a massive seven intact Pertwees (but probably not any complete serials), and substantial gaps in Tom Baker's first year (the Dixon episodes which went out on the same night as Genesis of the Daleks and Revenge of the Cybermen are missing, for instance).

 

[Candlelight]

It's inevitable that it'll slow down - in the early 1980s, it seemed as if they came regularly two or three times a year, but they'd only started looking a few years before.
After 1984, it slowed - 2 episodes in 1986 (IIRC), The four Ice Warriors episodes in 1988, then nothing until Tomb in 1992 (though in the meantime, all the soundtracks were located - in the '80s, some Hartnells still seemed to be missing even on audio).
Then a seven year gap until The Lion turned up, and another five before Day of Armageddon.
The reality is, we'll be very lucky if anything turns up now, after 30 years of searching for stuff that had only been missing for 6/7 years when the search began. But you never know. We might be really lucky and there will be a whole stack of battered film cans in some uncatalogued store.

What could be useful would be for Ian Levine to declare that he doesn't think any more missing episodes will ever be found. Last time he did that, The Lion turned up within the month...

http://www.angelfire.com/magic/thedoctorwhonexus/episoderecoveries.htm

 

[diankra]

What could be useful would be for Ian Levine to declare that he doesn't think any more missing episodes will ever be found. Last time he did that, The Lion turned up within the month...

http://www.angelfire.com/magic/thedoctorwhonexus/episoderecoveries.htm

Ian is responsible for the survival of a massive number of 1st and 2nd season episodes which might have been destroyed if he hadn't been there, with enough determination to break through BBC bureaucracy, and enough money to convince them these old films cans might be worth keeping (if he was willing to pay exorbitant prices for copies, then who else?). If he'd been there six months later, most of the surviving Hartnell stories would be gone.

And if he hadn't been there, at that time, with that amount of money to spare (seriously: I think the basic cost of buying a film print of a Doctor Who episode in 1978 was about £250, but you also had to pay for all the copyright clearances, which could treble the cost), the BBC wouldn't have woken up to the worth of preserving old programmes until a lot later, and more would have been lost.

I just have problems when the miracle he pulled off in 1978 leads into assuming that what he suggests is right now. Or (because I'm an old git) that it was even right in 1990 (which is roughly when I first met him, within a few years). He achieved an astonishing lot, for which fans should always be grateful, but that doesn't mean he's right about how to do things now.

 

[23skidoo]

Clips like that have been found (and are on Lost in Time), but given how short a home cine reel was then (and how expensive they were compared with a kid's pocket money), clips seem likely to be all that anyone shot.

True, but maybe someone shot clips of other scenes that would at least give us more of a snapshot. Also even back in the 60s you had people with money who used professional-grade equipment. The finger-crossing part being the hope at least one of these people were fans of a sci-fi serial aimed at kids...

One 1960s episode was found on an early home video recorder a few years back, but unfortunately it was The Space Pirates 2 (which already existed).

Of course that's not always a bad thing. Wasn't there a Pertwee or a Troughton case in which a duplicate was discovered but it was with better picture quality? I think that might have been the case with that one episode of Edge of Destruction (or was it The Daleks?) that was found with the Arabic soundtrack.

Anecdotally, some schools apparently had video recorders in the mid 1960s and recorded the Hartnell historicals to show as primary school history lessons, but if any of those tapes weren't reused, they haven't turned up since those stories started going around 25 years back.

I wonder if Levine and his colleagues have thought of exploring school storage rooms? If schools in Britain are anything like the schools I went to in Saskatchewan, there might be cupboards that haven't been opened in 40 years!

For a real horror story, check out Dixon of Dock Green...

That is just awful. Imagine if the original Star Trek had been made by the BBC. We'd be lucky to have the Tribbles episode and Spock's Brain left over.

It is a real shame. I mean, the US isn't 100% spotless on this record either (the vast majority of Johnny Carson's first decade as host of the Tonight Show is lost, including his first show, though some audio recordings survive). But in terms of scripted shows the only US network show from the 1960s or later that I believe is lost is the My Living Doll sitcom starring Julie Newmar - only an episode or two of that still exists. I shudder to think how much history, great performances, and early appearances by actors of note have been lost. As I said earlier I understand the reasoning as it was at the time, but all these lost shows, from Dixon of Dock Green to most of Troughton's Doctor Who, are losses that could have been avoided. I've been critical of everything being archived in digital format, but I do wish they'd had access to that technology back in the 60s and 70s -- there wouldn't have been the whole issue of storing and reusing videotapes.

And if the BBC hadn't been so cheap and had actually FILMED most of its shows (and none of that stupid videotaped interior/film exterior mix either) maybe we'd have had more of these shows to enjoy. And they might have made some money off the deal. ITV got to sell shows like The Saint, Danger Man and The Avengers to US networks and syndication. Did a single BBC network series ever get shown on an American mainstream network? Probably not - they all ended up on PBS. Not exactly a cash cow. Considering how many British shows were on CBS, NBC and ABC in the 60s there's no real reason why Doctor Who couldn't have been given a go if it had been filmed - but that's another thread!

Alex

 

[Candlelight]

One 1960s episode was found on an early home video recorder a few years back, but unfortunately it was The Space Pirates 2 (which already existed).

Of course that's not always a bad thing. Wasn't there a Pertwee or a Troughton case in which a duplicate was discovered but it was with better picture quality? I think that might have been the case with that one episode of Edge of Destruction (or was it The Daleks?) that was found with the Arabic soundtrack.

The Space Museum 1 had a duplicate returned, which was better than the original. Three copies of The Dominators 5 were recovered; the first two were edited, the final one was thankfully uncut.

Anecdotally, some schools apparently had video recorders in the mid 1960s and recorded the Hartnell historicals to show as primary school history lessons, but if any of those tapes weren't reused, they haven't turned up since those stories started going around 25 years back.

I wonder if Levine and his colleagues have thought of exploring school storage rooms? If schools in Britain are anything like the schools I went to in Saskatchewan, there might be cupboards that haven't been opened in 40 years!

There's a New Zealand rumour of an episode of Fury from the Deep being recorded here, yet this serial never screened here so it's a load of bollocks. Still, they WERE recording them back then...

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It's too bad that it's probably not economical to try to bring these back to life with some quality 3D animation. I've seen a few cool test clips people have done but I don't think it's ever been done of a full scale.

I'm not very familiar with the reconstruction efforts. What I've seen is usually photographs accompanying the audio. Has anyone tried anything more such as they do with digital comics?

 

[diankra]

For a real horror story, check out Dixon of Dock Green...

That is just awful. Imagine if the original Star Trek had been made by the BBC. We'd be lucky to have the Tribbles episode and Spock's Brain left over.
Alex

FWIW.. one of the surviving* Dixon episodes seems to be a rather important one from the point of Doctor Who.
Tom Baker had a minor role in it, and a few years later he send the director a 'Got any work, guv?' letter. The director had been promoted to head of series at the BBC, and got Tom's letter as he came back from a meeting with Barry Letts, where Letts had effectively said 'None of my ideas for actors to play the new Doctor are working out...'

*Assuming it is one of the survivors: it's possible that an 'And here's him before he became Doctor Who' clip had been copied off for some other show before it was wiped. But anyway, there's a clip of Tom's appearance in his This is Your Life episode.

 

[Phillip Culley]

There's a New Zealand rumour of an episode of Fury from the Deep being recorded here, yet this serial never screened here so it's a load of bollocks. Still, they WERE recording them back then...

I'd not heard about the Fury from the Deep rumour, however I have heard of a virtually identical story, regarding The Macra Terror...

 

[GeneHunt]

....

 

[Rarewolf]

Ian is responsible for the survival of a massive number of 1st and 2nd season episodes which might have been destroyed if he hadn't been thereIf he'd been there six months later, most of the surviving Hartnell stories would be gone.

On the other hand you have to wonder what the situation would have been had he got there 1 year earlier...

 

[Candlelight]

Ian is responsible for the survival of a massive number of 1st and 2nd season episodes which might have been destroyed if he hadn't been thereIf he'd been there six months later, most of the surviving Hartnell stories would be gone.

On the other hand you have to wonder what the situation would have been had he got there 1 year earlier...

"Large man arrested for pushing BBC worker into furnace"