Sisko's racial rant in Badda-Bing Badda-Bang

[Rush Limborg]

Garamet--I'm not saying forget what happened. If you read, you'll see that I'm saying there would be an appropriate place to put a discussion into the episode...i.e. actually talk it out face-to-face with Vic. As a living AI, he should be approached with the respect due to a living being, rather than talking behind his back. If Sisko feels the problem is sufficient to merit discussion, then take it straight to Vic--don't sit back and act like it's OK for Vic to die. I think the writers just didn't think that one through. B'Elanna and Kejal aired their problems to each other's faces...the same should've happened here.

THIS!

Frankly, Sisko should have dealt with this problem of his long ago! But...instead of manning up, and dealing with the issue with a conversation with Vic--

(ADD/Asperger's Moment: If you want to talk about whether Vic's sentient or not...I say YES. Especially considering his complete self-awareness of the fact that he's a hologram, and that everyone else has a life in the 24th century, and that he can turn himself on and off at will--to say noting of going into other holosuites--

I could go on. But frankly...the odds are slightly stacked in favor of his being alive....)

--instead, what does he do? He avoids Vic's like the plague, until Kassidy confronts him about it.

There actually is one little bit of subtext on the issue, though I think it might glide past many viewers: Miles O'Brien's best friend is Julian Bashir, a British guy. That's very classically Star Trek; in the future we'll all get over this sort of attitude.

Yup...and thank God for that.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

He was carrying on traditions--no different than Spock having a Vulcan lyre or enjoying (though he'd deny that word choice!) plomeek soup. And I found that a powerful statement, that in every other episode he was able to enjoy and share his heritage and also partake in the heritage of others (the Bajorans, etc.) without it being a source of strife. (Jambalaya-induced heartburn, however...that might be a different matter. We'd have to ask Bashir on that one... )

I do think it was a much more powerful statement this way, by far.

There was a time in my life when I was planning on moving to England, shacking up with a lovely young English woman, maybe having some English kids a few years down the line... Long story short, that didn't happen, but I spent quite a bit of time there over the period of two years, over two months in total. And when that plan fell through I started working at a company that provided technical support across Europe so I spent quite a bit of time around people from France, Germany and so on. And when that job fell through I went back to college where I'm in a course with Indians, Kazakhs and even an African American man. And as I talk to these people, as I get to know them, as I learn about their cultures and their customs... I don't become any less Irish, I become even more so. That's not a bad thing, it's not based out of fear, it is based out of a welcoming of cultural diversity. Before I had these experiences, before I met these people, I had no real understanding of what it means to be Irish, but now I do.

Cultural diversity doesn't mean that we all become as one, it means that we all open ourselves to new experiences and new ways of thinking while keeping the traits that make us unique. That's what Sisko was, he was open to all sorts of different cultures, but that doesn't stop him from being a proud African American man.

And that's the positive expression of heritage I was talking about.

Sisko did seem open to other cultures and heritages. Except for that one comment, where it looked as though he was ignoring the plight of a sentient being because of his personal history.

But, if you accept the argument that the 60s bar makes it inevitable that the discussion comes up, then I think the proper response was to talk to Vic face-to-face as B'Elanna and Kejal did, rather than do so behind his back, and ignoring the fact that he could die because he doesn't like the "world" Vic comes from.

But Sisko didn't think of Vic as a person, he thought of Vic as I think of NPCs (non playable characters) in a video game. If I was to tell you that I was playing Mass Effect recently and I'm upset that a character I liked died on Virmire because I made a choice to save another one of my team members, I wouldn't expect you to say that you'd go and talk to Sarin and stop him from trying to enslave all life in the galaxy. It just doesn't make any sense.

Actually, in "Badda Bing," a distinction is made between Vic and the other holograms (like Frankie Eyes and Zeemo). Frankie Eyes and Zeemo are NPCs, like you say...Vic, however, is not an NPC; he's on par with Data and the Doctor, and is his own self-aware, sentient intelligence.

 

[garamet]

If you want to get completely picky, the episode title is a slur against Italians...

 

[Withers]

Garamet--I'm not saying forget what happened. If you read, you'll see that I'm saying there would be an appropriate place to put a discussion into the episode...i.e. actually talk it out face-to-face with Vic. As a living AI, he should be approached with the respect due to a living being, rather than talking behind his back. If Sisko feels the problem is sufficient to merit discussion, then take it straight to Vic--don't sit back and act like it's OK for Vic to die. I think the writers just didn't think that one through. B'Elanna and Kejal aired their problems to each other's faces...the same should've happened here.

THIS!

Frankly, Sisko should have dealt with this problem of his long ago! But...instead of manning up, and dealing with the issue with a conversation with Vic--

Why? We're talking about the equivalent of an NPC. If I could talk to Edea in FFVIII about the fact that I didn't care for her policies in regards to governing Galbadia would it be my responsibility to do so as opposed to just not playing the game? By the rules established by on screen portrayals Vic was, in no sense of the word, a person. He never asked to be a person. No one ever said that he was a person. He was a hologram and the idea that Sisko had some moral imparative to deal with him is ridiculous. (How many people do you know pick up signs and protest things they don't like rather than just ignoring th... oh, I see.)

There actually is one little bit of subtext on the issue, though I think it might glide past many viewers: Miles O'Brien's best friend is Julian Bashir, a British guy. That's very classically Star Trek; in the future we'll all get over this sort of attitude.

Yup...and thank God for that.

So we're alright with race as long as it's subtle... to the point it is absolutely never ever mentioned?

-Withers-​

 

[C.E. Evans]

Wouldn't you reasonably assume he identified himself as being black somewhere along the line of things he identified with? Sure, he was a Starfleet Officer, a human, a captain, a diplomat, etc. But, based on his cultural upbringing isn't it reasonable to assume he also identified himself as a black man? The only alternative is to omit that fact and when there are mirrors and reflective surfaces... that is something of a challenge.

I think what might be misconstrued as "coming out of nowhere" is simply the response to something that isn't going to come up all the time (or potentially ever as is the case for Miles and Bashir and their backgrounds). In this unique situation it came up- and rather than ignore it, Sisko said something.

QFT.


IMO, it doesn't matter if it's the 24th-Century or not. There are going to be periods of history that some people will never consider was all that great. This doesn't make Sisko "going all black militant on us" (which could be looked at as a racist remark itself really), but it was just him simply not turning a blind eye to certain facts about a particular era--when the subject was staring him in the face. It's no different than Picard talking distastefully about the Postatomic Horror, or McCoy about the Eugenics Wars. Not all of Human history is pretty. It's very Trek to acknowledge these things periodically to show how Humanity has progressed since then...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In a completely appropriate, time sensitive scenario, Sisko makes an objection to participating in an activity he'd rather not in a quiet conversation with his wife and look at the hell its caused. Again, one really has to wonder why.

It's not really a mystery - nothing freaks out white folks in America like any conversation about racism.

 

[Sci]

Um. Question.

Is it clear that Sisko understood that Vic was in danger simply because of an "Easter egg" in the Vegas holoprogram?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I think Sisko knew what was going on, yes. What are you getting at?

 

[Withers]

I just thought about this (since fictional races and prejudices against said races are brought up with relative regularity on DS9) Kira is assigned to help Damar. There are potentially billions of actual lives at stake and she objects to the assignment. We all know why she's objecting to it; Kira isn't all that fond of Cardassians. She goes through almost thought for thought the same process Sisko does but no one writes threads about "Kira's racial rants." She's objecting based on the actual people involved. Ben specifically said it wasn't about Vic personally.

Why is it alright if the races (and thus the racism) is fictional but the instant an actual race is brought up in nearly an identical scenario (save for the fact that Kira's situation had actual consequences whereas Sisko's did not) all hell breaks loose?

-Withers-​

 

[Sci]

^ I think Sisko knew what was going on, yes. What are you getting at?

Simple. From Sisko's POV, if he doesn't understand that Vic is in honest-to-goodness danger -- or, for that matter, if he doesn't understand that Vic is apparently a sentient program -- then the idea that he should set aside his issues with how Felix programed it all so that he can help rescue Vic becomes moot.

 

[Danoz]

Eh, at this point in the future, I think he would have been more inclined to make a casual historical observation. Even today it would be rare to see somebody offended by classic mock time-period restaurant without its historically accurate "white's only" sign.

Having said that, Sisko seems to be a bit of a civil rights buff and even takes an overt interest in his ancient African heritage. The line rubbed me the wrong way, but only because it was so poorly written with the subtlety of a stampede.

 

[Sci]

Eh, at this point in the future, I think he would have been more inclined to make a casual historical observation. Even today it would be rare to see somebody offended by classic mock time-period restaurant without its historically accurate "white's only" sign.

Most such restaurants don't portray themselves as an all-encompassing re-creation of the time period.

 

[Danoz]

Eh, at this point in the future, I think he would have been more inclined to make a casual historical observation. Even today it would be rare to see somebody offended by classic mock time-period restaurant without its historically accurate "white's only" sign.

Most such restaurants don't portray themselves as an all-encompassing re-creation of the time period.

Oh please, Vic's is as much a caricature as Fair Haven.

 

[Withers]

Vic makes mention of his establishment as "period specific holographic recreation" at least a few times. When Quark asks him if they can play Tongo he asks Quark if they played Tongo in Las Vegas in 1962. It's pretty clearly defined when and where this thing takes place especially for someone like Sisko who is a.) knowledgeable about that time in history and b.) black.

-Withers-​

 

[Sci]

Eh, at this point in the future, I think he would have been more inclined to make a casual historical observation. Even today it would be rare to see somebody offended by classic mock time-period restaurant without its historically accurate "white's only" sign.

Most such restaurants don't portray themselves as an all-encompassing re-creation of the time period.

Oh please, Vic's is as much a caricature as Fair Haven.

Which is entirely separate from how it bills itself. We're both saying that it isn't a historically accurate re-creation; I'm also saying that it bills itself as one and that this therefore can reasonably be seen to make someone knowledgeable about that time period angry because of the implicit dishonesty about history.

 

[-Brett-]

No one in the episode was taking Vic's plight seriously. With the exception of Vic himself, everyone treats it like a game. Only difference between Sisko and the others is that Sisko was treating it like a game he wasn't interested in.

If you want to take the position that Vic is alive and his life was in danger, then the entire cast are callous bastards.

 

[Deckerd]

And yet somehow Miles O'Brien managed not to whine about it in DS9.

It never came up. Sisko didn't just walk into Ops one day and say, 'You know what gets my gall? A few centuries ago my ancestors were opppressed in the United States!'; he was reacting to a specific context.

There actually is one little bit of subtext on the issue, though I think it might glide past many viewers: Miles O'Brien's best friend is Julian Bashir, a British guy. That's very classically Star Trek; in the future we'll all get over this sort of attitude.

You behave as though the Irish and the English hate each other's guts. This could not be further from the truth. I don't know what rubbish propaganda you've been fed in the USA but it has no bearing on reality.

 

[Kegg]

You behave as though the Irish and the English hate each other's guts. This could not be further from the truth. I don't know what rubbish propaganda you've been fed in the USA but it has no bearing on reality.

I have this little location marker beneath my avatar. I suggest you read it.

I also suggest you read what I said, because I certainly didn't say that "the Irish and the English hate each other's guts", but that once upon a time Northern Ireland was a fairly unjust place. Which, you know, it was.

 

[Deckerd]

Northern Ireland was an unjust place but unless I'm mistaken it was mostly Irish people blowing up other Irish people, with the odd interfering busybody soldier thrown in for good measure. Since you are Irish you should know better than to pretend that it's only in the future an Englishman and an Irishman could realistically be friends.

 

[Kegg]

Northern Ireland was an unjust place but unless I'm mistaken it was mostly Irish people blowing up other Irish people, with the odd interfering busybody soldier thrown in for good measure.

That's a surprisingly common English view, to I'm sure great distress to the loyalists (who were probably more British than the British at this point.) It also conveinently downplays that, well, Northern Ireland is Britain. Which was the point, as it were.

TheGodBen rather adequately explained how Northern Ireland was institutionally unjust upthread; I can't add much to that only the rather trite personal anecdote that my grandfather worked building ships in the Belfast shipyards during World War II and then left because he knew when the Protestants returned home he'd lose his job. Such is life.

Since you are Irish you should know better than to pretend that it's only in the future an Englishman and an Irishman could realistically be friends.

I've chosen my words rather carefully; I called Julian Bashir British rather than English, and I ddin't mean to suggest only in the future they could be friends, but it was a sense (as Star Trek likes to have) that these conflicts are in the distant past. You know, maybe in the 1960s there were Americans and Russians were getting remarkably chummy, but there was also this little spat called the Cold War, hence Chekov with his Monkees haircut and friendly demeanour. He was even pals with Sulu; what's Sakhalin between buddies?