But that was cultural heritage, not race in and of itself.
As I say, I personally don't have strong feelings either way on the Sisko "rant". I hear what you're saying, and I also hear what those who dislike it are saying.
Sisko's racial rant in Badda-Bing Badda-Bang
- Thread starter John200
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But that was cultural heritage, not race in and of itself.
As I say, I personally don't have strong feelings either way on the Sisko "rant". I hear what you're saying, and I also hear what those who dislike it are saying.
He was carrying on traditions--no different than Spock having a Vulcan lyre or enjoying (though he'd deny that word choice!) plomeek soup. And I found that a powerful statement, that in every other episode he was able to enjoy and share his heritage and also partake in the heritage of others (the Bajorans, etc.) without it being a source of strife. (Jambalaya-induced heartburn, however...that might be a different matter. We'd have to ask Bashir on that one...
)I do think it was a much more powerful statement this way, by far.
But, if you accept the argument that the 60s bar makes it inevitable that the discussion comes up, then I think the proper response was to talk to Vic face-to-face as B'Elanna and Kejal did, rather than do so behind his back, and ignoring the fact that he could die because he doesn't like the "world" Vic comes from.
Sisko had shown - at least, Brooks' performance had shown - previous sensitivity to the character's racial/ethnic history - watch his reaction in "The Search" when Quark throws up slavery as one of the depths to which humanity has sunk at times which is lower than anything in Ferengi history.
There was a time in my life when I was planning on moving to England, shacking up with a lovely young English woman, maybe having some English kids a few years down the line... Long story short, that didn't happen, but I spent quite a bit of time there over the period of two years, over two months in total. And when that plan fell through I started working at a company that provided technical support across Europe so I spent quite a bit of time around people from France, Germany and so on. And when that job fell through I went back to college where I'm in a course with Indians, Kazakhs and even an African American man. And as I talk to these people, as I get to know them, as I learn about their cultures and their customs... I don't become any less Irish, I become even more so. That's not a bad thing, it's not based out of fear, it is based out of a welcoming of cultural diversity. Before I had these experiences, before I met these people, I had no real understanding of what it means to be Irish, but now I do.He was carrying on traditions--no different than Spock having a Vulcan lyre or enjoying (though he'd deny that word choice!) plomeek soup. And I found that a powerful statement, that in every other episode he was able to enjoy and share his heritage and also partake in the heritage of others (the Bajorans, etc.) without it being a source of strife. (Jambalaya-induced heartburn, however...that might be a different matter. We'd have to ask Bashir on that one...
I do think it was a much more powerful statement this way, by far.
Cultural diversity doesn't mean that we all become as one, it means that we all open ourselves to new experiences and new ways of thinking while keeping the traits that make us unique. That's what Sisko was, he was open to all sorts of different cultures, but that doesn't stop him from being a proud African American man.
But Sisko didn't think of Vic as a person, he thought of Vic as I think of NPCs (non playable characters) in a video game. If I was to tell you that I was playing Mass Effect recently and I'm upset that a character I liked died on Virmire because I made a choice to save another one of my team members, I wouldn't expect you to say that you'd go and talk to Sarin and stop him from trying to enslave all life in the galaxy. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Withers
Captain
If this came up a lot or even as regularly as an "Obrien Must Suffer" episode I'd have some objection to it. We're talking about the one time a person who was actually blind could infer that Sisko was black. His "rant" was like three lines of dialogue in a private conversation with his wife... it wasn't like he was suddenly Malcolm X on the Promenade.
In a completely appropriate, time sensitive scenario, Sisko makes an objection to participating in an activity he'd rather not in a quiet conversation with his wife and look at the hell its caused. Again, one really has to wonder why.
In a completely appropriate, time sensitive scenario, Sisko makes an objection to participating in an activity he'd rather not in a quiet conversation with his wife and look at the hell its caused. Again, one really has to wonder why.
-Withers-
"The Jem'Hadar" actually, but that's a good point. As I understand it behind the scenes Brooks wanted to emphasize that aspect of the character a little more, which may have something to do with his growth more or less in that direction.
And how does one manifest race in and of itself, aside from the rather obvious fact of being black? As stated, there's no need for Sisko to bring his race into the equation in any other circumstance.
There is nothing else. That's it. Having skin of a certain colour and facial features of a certain configuration is all there is to race. Anything else is culture, tradition, etc- which might well relate to race, but is never the same thing.
Sisko never seemed to me to ever identify as "black". He identified with certain cultural heritages that we recognise as connected to "blacks", as does Kassidy Yates (naming her ship "Xhosa" for one)- but that isn't the same as suddenly identifying as "black" which he quite clearly does in Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang.
Because he suddenly brought it up. He suddenly identified as "black" in a way he never had before. Which isn't in and of itself unbelievable when confronted with this situation- particularly given his Benny Russell experience- but is still rather glaring to some, especially as it wasn't real racism he encountered in this program but the absence of racism that would have been there. As I said, I see the point, but I think it comes out of nowhere a bit. Sisko is now identifying as "black", which he never did before. He clearly identified with certain cultures which are tied to blacks as a race, as you pointed out, but that's not the same thing.
Sisko was being very petty and Kassidy straightened him out. The Eagles had a great song in 1994, Get Over It.
If you're looking for someone to screw you, you'll probably find it. So many ppl want to blame the white/male bogey man for all the ills of society, instead of looking inward for the solving of their problems (sounds like Opaca)
Now here in the US there are ppl (Jessie/Sharpton/others) who are now making $ and gaining power by screaming racism where it isn't. Thereby, making themselves and the zombies who blindly follow look like fools.
Real racism does still exist, but in the minds of these racism pimps, it exists where white and black meet.
And to have Trek stoke this was unnecessary.
If you're looking for someone to screw you, you'll probably find it. So many ppl want to blame the white/male bogey man for all the ills of society, instead of looking inward for the solving of their problems (sounds like Opaca)
Now here in the US there are ppl (Jessie/Sharpton/others) who are now making $ and gaining power by screaming racism where it isn't. Thereby, making themselves and the zombies who blindly follow look like fools.
Real racism does still exist, but in the minds of these racism pimps, it exists where white and black meet.
And to have Trek stoke this was unnecessary.
Really?
And GR had his bigotries, too. Q.v. TNG's "Up the Long Ladder."
Gene didn't write that episode. He had very little to do with the entire SHOW at that point. So you can't blame that episode on him. Melinda Snodgrass wrote it; go complain to her if you must.
Withers
Captain
Wouldn't you reasonably assume he identified himself as being black somewhere along the line of things he identified with? Sure, he was a Starfleet Officer, a human, a captain, a diplomat, etc. But, based on his cultural upbringing isn't it reasonable to assume he also identified himself as a black man? The only alternative is to omit that fact and when there are mirrors and reflective surfaces... that is something of a challenge.
I think what might be misconstrued as "coming out of nowhere" is simply the response to something that isn't going to come up all the time (or potentially ever as is the case for Miles and Bashir and their backgrounds). In this unique situation it came up- and rather than ignore it, Sisko said something.
I think what might be misconstrued as "coming out of nowhere" is simply the response to something that isn't going to come up all the time (or potentially ever as is the case for Miles and Bashir and their backgrounds). In this unique situation it came up- and rather than ignore it, Sisko said something.
-Withers-
Supposedly so. He was also a member of the party for a time, he joined when he was 14, although he admits that he isn't a member any more.
Well, there was that one episode, where Sisko went through the Siege Perilous.
Really?
And GR had his bigotries, too. Q.v. TNG's "Up the Long Ladder."
Gene didn't write that episode. He had very little to do with the entire SHOW at that point. So you can't blame that episode on him. Melinda Snodgrass wrote it; go complain to her if you must.
He retained the power of veto until the day he died. I hold him responsible.
garamet said:And GR had his bigotries, too. Q.v. TNG's "Up the Long Ladder."
Gene didn't write that episode. He had very little to do with the entire SHOW at that point. So you can't blame that episode on him. Melinda Snodgrass wrote it; go complain to her if you must.
He retained the power of veto until the day he died. I hold him responsible.
I see. Well, that is certainly your right, although I must confess that I seem to have misplaced something which I believe is called my "give-a-crap". As soon as I find it, rest assured I will inform you with all deliberate speed.
I recall someone else making the joke that TOS was basically about a biracial man overcoming his crew's constant prejudice and ribbing
^Chekhov.
Now I feel stupid... Here, I'm half Bajoran, half Cardassian, but IRL I'm half Russian, half something else... Of course there should be an h. In fact, I never noticed that there WASN'T! I've been seeing what I expected to see, instead of what was really there. If that makes any sense.
